Address from Commanding General

[Mandrivia_2]

Yes, because when I think of honor, I immediately think of TPF.

Pointless propaganda is pointless.

Ain't that the truth. TPF has shown all thoughout their history that they have no credibility, and used NPO as a shield to mistreat other alliances. TPF is in their rightful place right now.

[Ar Pharazon]

He who fights to the death, dies in the fight. -Ghandi

[HeinousOne]

Actually, I would have agreed with you regarding NPO until about a week ago. My opinion has been changed by additional evidence. That said, we can agree on TPF being anything but the "chickens" some war propagandists were claiming. They have indeed proven their bravery time and time again in this war.

Nice to see that evidence is finally getting passed around, better privately then not at all.

STA. Polar just surrendered faster than Pacifica.

That is because Polar considered the well being of their friends too, not just their alliance members. Why? Because they knew STA and possibly others were with them till the end.

I believe STA probably would have, but until you've actually done it it's just talk, know what I mean? So while that's very respectable, they didn't actually have to go in for the long haul.

TPF isn't just talking the talk they're walking the walk. And for that they deserve some respect, even from their enemies.

You obviously know nothing of the relationship between STA and NpO. Why do you think NpO seems to speak so highly of STA? I am taking nothing away from TPF and what they are doing as I respect it very much even if it is frustrating to see them getting blasted while those they are getting blasted for are only taking their own alliance members into consideration. In that sense TPF does have it worse but to claim that there is any doubt at all of how dedicated STA was to NpO is to speak from a position of extreme ignorance.

mhawk (and the rest of TPF), it is a pleasure to continue to fight with you.

o/ TPF

My friend, someone from NPO needs to recognize the situation and say something more along the lines of "TPF, it saddens me to see you endure such while honoring your treaty with us. I would personally wish to see you end your participation in this as we have turned down our chance at peace and thus your chance at peace. We are extremely honored that TPF would stand so long beside us while many others did not."

I would definately not be using the word "pleasure".

[Farrin Xies]

HeinousOne, to fight for Pacifica alongside loyal friends like TPF is all one can ask for. It does indeed sadden me that they have had to endure so much to honor our treaty, but I also see that they realize a treaty is more than just words. Again I say, hail TPF.

Edit: I can't read who posts what, evidently.

Edited June 23, 2009 by farrin

[Vlad Dracula]

o/ TPF

Stand strong always

As always? Isn't this the same alliance that had to be gelded and basically embarrassed into joining the fight with its allies?

[Londo Mollari]

Hilarious. We never did get along Revanche, but even I didn't think you'd resort to the "NO U" button so quick.

Go back to your hole, Misr - 3:12 Revanche is one of the more logical and coherent posters on these forums, and it's pretty clear at this point that you just have an agenda to push against Karma and will say anything to do so.

I believe STA probably would have, but until you've actually done it it's just talk, know what I mean? So while that's very respectable, they didn't actually have to go in for the long haul.

TPF isn't just talking the talk they're walking the walk. And for that they deserve some respect, even from their enemies.

STA had around 200-300k NS at the end of their war IIRC. I know that Athens was briefly higher in NS than they were right before they got out of the noCB war (after we got trashed defending MK ) .... so uh... yeah. STA got trashed pretty good for their allies, and that's one reason I have so much respect for them.

[HeinousOne]

As always? Isn't this the same alliance that had to be gelded and basically embarrassed into joining the fight with its allies?

It is the alliance that followed the same disinformation passed around to the hegemony by a certain someone as well as his alliance members. It is the alliance who's leader was willing to leave the alliance due to such and was going to go it alone to defend NPO. It is the alliance that once they realized the information they received was false would not recognize Mhawk leaving and instead turned around quickly to support NPO. The fact that they are still there fighting while others have given up shows that they more then many others did it for the right reasons and not just a PR stunt.

[fant0m]

You realize TPF turned 2 after fan had already had peace?

My point was that you have helped keep alliances under NPO's boot for far longer than 2 months so don't come looking for sympathy. That is exactly what this is, yet another shameless PR attempt to try and garner support.

[KingSuck]

I find it ironic you're one to complain about terms.

I don't, but good for you.

[Tobirama Senju]

Keep on trucking TPF. Keep on trucking.

No, it's meant to demonstrate the clear lack of confidence and resolve that those attacking The Phoenix Federation have. You don't attempt to encourage people to desert an alliance unless you're concerned that without doing so you cannot achieve victory.

Not to be rude or mean, but I doubt that Karma have anything to fear from the TPF at this point.

Or TSI for that fact...

^ Oh no! Your on to our plans!

OOC/ I'm assuming that DonFernando's post was a response to Tokugawa Mitsukuni's post, quoted above. Thank you for posting something about TSI. Weve been hoping for a bit of publicity. It's good to see that when people criticize your alliance, you just fire back at theirs instead of engaging that person. Seriously I feel sooo much flamebait in your post that it burns my skin./OOC

EDIT: spelling

Edited June 24, 2009 by Antos

[Tygaland]

But about what propaganda are you talking about? You have to admit that Coke/Pepsi one was a good piece

The message that made you burst into tears from the OP is propaganda. The Coke/Pepsi thing was lame because Coke tastes nothing like Pepsi.

[Hydro]

Well this is impressive. The TPF might've lost the war with their nations, but it's clear that they're starting to win the propoganda war. I barely ever see sigs insulting TPF anymore and now the general populace seems to believe that TPF is an honorable alliance. Whether that is true or not is beside the point, the point is that you are to be congradulated on the sucess of the PR campaign that you've run during this war.

[Tygaland]

You're not tearing apart an argument, you're merely playing to the crowd on each occasion trying to rally support against the Hegemony. When STA complained about the reps that were going to be imposed on them, this wasn't a stunt to try and gain sympathy? And when NPO and TPF do it you "tear apart" the same exact argument STA used a year from now. You're not a biased party to speak about fact and logic, you speak through karma tinted lenses and try and speak from your point of view.

You just can't help yourself, can you? Revanche's diagram sums it up in simple enough terms for you but I'll expand on the main difference between the NPO and STA because I know you have difficulty with comprehension sometimes.

The NPO started this war with an aggressive attack on OV. The STA entered the noCB War via a defensive treaty defending the NpO who had been attacked. Had the STA kicked off the war by attacking another alliance, you'd have a point. As it stands, you don't.

I'll not even get into the terms that the STA objected to that are not contained in the NPO terms but I think my point has been made.

You really need to seek help as your fixation with myself and my alliance is getting worse. I know you are butt-hurt because I turned down your request for a protectorate agreement between the STA and Soldier but I think my decision there has been well and truly vindicated since then. Get over it.

[The AUT]

You need to seek help as your fixation with myself and my alliance is getting worse. I know you are butt-hurt because I turned down your request for a protectorate agreement between the STA and Soldier but I think my decision there has been well and truly vindicated since then. Get over it.

I understood your decision yet you didn't understand my decision with picking TPF when you didn't want to offer us protection. You forget?

And likewise, glad I made the decision I did and defended the people that I did. So thank you Tyga, and the whole of STA.

To avoid further derailment I'll leave this thread. It seems like I'm a CnG magnet.

[Tygaland]

I believe STA probably would have, but until you've actually done it it's just talk, know what I mean? So while that's very respectable, they didn't actually have to go in for the long haul.

TPF isn't just talking the talk they're walking the walk. And for that they deserve some respect, even from their enemies.

How many of the STA's allies were at war when we accepted peace in the noCB War? Out of curiosity.

The STA stuck it out until the war was over and every one of our allies had received peace, just as we promised. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only difference between the STA and TPF is we didn't waver when called upon to defend our allies.

Your pathetic attempt to smear the STA and belittle her actions in the noCB war is a disgrace.

[Minilla Island]

Mhawk, if I can say anything about your statement is that you truly believe that a treaty is more than a piece of paper. You are doing the honorable thing in standing with Pacifica, even if it means your own destruction. That alone commands anyones respect. Hail!

[Tygaland]

I understood your decision yet you didn't understand my decision with picking TPF when you didn't want to offer us protection. You forget?

Probably because you whined and moaned about TPF incessantly, then when I said no to the protectorate you ran to them and were suddenly their biggest fan. I'm not sure me being confused by that is anything out of the ordinary.

And likewise, glad I made the decision I did and defended the people that I did. So thank you Tyga, and the whole of STA.

Good to know, but nothing to do with anything I mentioned.

To avoid further derailment I'll leave this thread. It seems like I'm a CnG magnet.

No, you are just a liar with an fixation on certain people and alliances.

[kobiashiy]

Tygas layn down the hamma!!

o/Tyga

Also Clausewitz nice quote

Edited June 24, 2009 by kobiashiy

[Hermes]

Go back to your hole, Misr - 3:12 Revanche is one of the more logical and coherent posters on these forums, and it's pretty clear at this point that you just have an agenda to push against Karma and will say anything to do so.

And you have a problem with Aut having an agenda to push against Karma, just like you had an agenda to push against NPO. Give me a break, you are a hypocrite. If you can't take it that someone opposes you in a game, i worry for you irl.

The NPO started this war with an aggressive attack on OV. The STA entered the noCB War via a defensive treaty defending the NpO who had been attacked. Had the STA kicked off the war by attacking another alliance, you'd have a point. As it stands, you don't.

I'll not even get into the terms that the STA objected to that are not contained in the NPO terms but I think my point has been made.

You really need to seek help as your fixation with myself and my alliance is getting worse. I know you are butt-hurt because I turned down your request for a protectorate agreement between the STA and Soldier but I think my decision there has been well and truly vindicated since then. Get over it.

Yes NPO started this war, and they should be punished for that. But should TPF? TPF simply honored a treaty, defensively i might add. Once NPO was attacked, TPF honored the defense clause in their treaty. If they would have been on the agressive against OV then you might have a point. Until then, please stop trying to pin this on the initial attack on OV in which TPF was not involved.

With you going around spitting out !@#$%^&*, i don't blame Aut one bit for going after you.

[Tygaland]

Yes NPO started this war, and they should be punished for that. But should TPF? TPF simply honored a treaty, defensively i might add. Once NPO was attacked, TPF honored the defense clause in their treaty. If they would have been on the agressive against OV then you might have a point. Until then, please stop trying to pin this on the initial attack on OV in which TPF was not involved.

TPF can have peace whenever they want it, as far as I'm aware. The NPO rejecting peace is keeping TPF in the war. Well, that and mhawk's pledge to stay in the war until Pacifica is given peace. So, perhaps your angst is better directed at the alliance that is keeping TPF at war.

With you going around spitting out !@#$%^&*, i don't blame Aut one bit for going after you.

What bullcrap would that be? Because I have quite a few examples of TheAUT lying.

[Hermes]

TPF can have peace whenever they want it, as far as I'm aware. The NPO rejecting peace is keeping TPF in the war. Well, that and mhawk's pledge to stay in the war until Pacifica is given peace. So, perhaps your angst is better directed at the alliance that is keeping TPF at war.

What bullcrap would that be? Because I have quite a few examples of TheAUT lying.

No, im pissed off at the world.

Bullcrap=your "Karma" !@#$.

[Londo Mollari]

And you have a problem with Aut having an agenda to push against Karma, just like you had an agenda to push against NPO. Give me a break, you are a hypocrite. If you can't take it that someone opposes you in a game, i worry for you irl.

Yes NPO started this war, and they should be punished for that. But should TPF? TPF simply honored a treaty, defensively i might add. Once NPO was attacked, TPF honored the defense clause in their treaty. If they would have been on the agressive against OV then you might have a point. Until then, please stop trying to pin this on the initial attack on OV in which TPF was not involved.

With you going around spitting out !@#$%^&*, i don't blame Aut one bit for going after you.

I have conducted myself in this war with no other agenda than the security of my alliance and the defense of the unjustly abused. And honoring a treaty to "defend" an ally who started an aggressive war is very very different than honoring a treaty to defend an ally who was attacked. Of course Misr doesn't care about that, he is simply pushing the Hegemony talking points (as ludicrous as they are) in an attempt to keep playing for his chosen side. The fact that he attempts to smear my friend Revanche in the process is why I speak up.

[Hermes]

I have conducted myself in this war with no other agenda than the security of my alliance and the defense of the unjustly abused. And honoring a treaty to "defend" an ally who started an aggressive war is very very different than honoring a treaty to defend an ally who was attacked. Of course Misr doesn't care about that, he is simply pushing the Hegemony talking points (as ludicrous as they are) in an attempt to keep playing for his chosen side. The fact that he attempts to smear my friend Revanche in the process is why I speak up.

How is it different? They are forced to defend the NPO via a treaty. Something they take very seriously. If NPO went on the aggressive, they are allowed to. When the attacks were made against NPO, that brought them into this war, not the NPO declaration on OV. To me it makes no difference that NPO started a war. They were declared on and that is what brought TPF into the war. Could it have been avoided? yes but NPO is NPO and they $%&@ed up.

[KinKiac]

Great quote from Archon. I think it's safe to say, like any politician, some of these promises may not be fulfilled. Which, like politicians, makes me sad.

Also, since no one replied to my last post. Can anyone else think of an alliance who has dedicated itself to enduring a curbstomp until their ally has peace? I know of many alliances that have refused to surrender for themselves, for their own survival, but can't recall any doing it for an ally other than TPF.

Its not that other alliances wouldnt, it is that other alliances dont have allies that would sit back and ALLOW their friends to continue to get curbstomped for them. Also, someone else pointed out STA.

Like the one about not imposing draconian terms?

You mean like the white peace given to many alliances in this war? Id say thats a BIG change.

You are projecting your own beliefs on myself. I would not have offered such a treaty had I wanted to destroy PC. If I had wanted to "beat to the punch" why wouldn't I just have gone in with a coalition against PC when they were COMPLETELY politically isolated a month before the NAP?

Why bother with it if we had no intention of honoring it?

We had both the military and political backing to remove PC's pixels and chose not to at the time it was signed. It wasn't part of some grand conspiracy to roll PC at a later date. We could have done so at the time and not bothered with signing anything if that had been mhawk's plan. He truly wanted to make peace with PC, moreso than just about every other member of TPF.

To answer these 2 posts, thoeretically without any actual knowledge of the situations ie) "why would an alliance not attack when the ones they want to attack are politically isolated?" That ones easy. PR. If you attack an alliance with the intent of simply destroying them, without a valid CB "for their destruction", which would take quite a bit I might add, you are going to look very very bad.

Acta non Verba. I'd say mhawk's actions speak for him in a way words never could. You can call him dishonorable all day long, but when I look, I see him upholding their word. No matter how far I look back, that is what I see.

Now I see him leading an alliance, that is also keeping it's word. I am pretty damn impressed. No one would think the less of them if they left now, but they gave their *word*, so they are keeping it. How in the hell do you get 'dishonorable' from that?

You dont. You get it elsewhere. I havent seen many who claim TPF is dishonorable for keeping its word "this time", but rather many who claim they are dishonorable for previous actions, many of which seem to be while they were under the rule of Slayer. Even though Mhawk may be of a different nature then his predecessor, it still doesnt change the history he inherited by becoming the leader of TPF. It doesnt matter if he and other Gov are former Elysium, they chose to merge into TPF, keep the name TPF and therefore must deal with the fact that TPF are not known by many to be honorable. The name TPF and all it's baggage go hand in hand. If they truly wanted to distance themselves from the previous actions of TPF, they would have been better off changing the name, not just the people in charge.

My personal opinion in this conflict is that Mhawk has shown himself at least to be doing the honorable thing. I will give him credit for that. Whether or not the rest of the alliance has that same honor, unfortunately is not able to be determined from my point of view, they may or may not have been shamed into fighting. Myself and many others may never know, as TPF would never admit it if they were shamed into fighting. Same goes for any of the other alliances that have been labeled the coalition of cowards. However, the ones who still stand to fight today could be reasonably assumed to have as much honor as their leader, since they have many chances to surrender individually to Karma, and now to simply leave for other endeavors with Mhawk's blessing. The fact that they choose to continue to fight says something. I will not go as far as to say that TPF is an honorable alliance, however I will say that they have shown honor in their actions during this war.

Alliances have a culture, TPF's culture is summed up in" no one left behind". TPF is following its own culture and cannot be faulted. Another instance where the anti-hegemony word about not interfering in any alliances sovereignty, is broken; i.e. change this attitude or pay reps at the end that will guarantee your demise. Not said with any specificity, but disguised with advice and portents.

lol, way to spin it. I havent heard anyone on these boards or elsewhere say to TPF "surrender or get huge reps that will destroy you". All that has been said is that if TPF continues with their fight, that the fight will destroy them. Whether or not continuing the battle will destroy them or not is a matter of opinion, and depends largely on TPF's resolve. No one is "interfering" in TPF's sovereignty.

The bolded part of your post shows your opinion, which in my opinion is reading too deep into the words of nations fighting alongside Karma. The italicized part is spin.

[Hydro]

And honoring a treaty to "defend" an ally who started an aggressive war is very very different than honoring a treaty to defend an ally who was attacked.

No it isn't. If you have a treaty with an ally that stipulates your involvement in any type of conflict they're involved in then you are obliged to honor your commitment. How and why the war was started is utterly irrelevant and unless the treaty somehow stipulates otherwise then you must prepare for battle. It's nice to know where your alliance stands on that issue though, unless of course you thought people would just double-think that away?