Address from Commanding General

[Rafael Nadal]

Matthew Conrad is in Sparta, not Athens.

I'd be surprised if that was true for Echelon. I expect Avalon to get out along with TPF.

That was Vanguard's counteroffer, which was made after a few days of war.

I'm talking about the offer Universalis made before Vanguard attacked, which was backed up by the threat of involving Vanguard. Perhaps they didn't tell you guys.

That was not Vanguard's counter-offer. I should know, I was running Vanguard for all intents and purposes during that war. That offer was already on the table, which is why I worked off those terms.

Edit: I know about the hard line stance Universalis took before the situation escalated, and I don't blame them. Maybe you have forgotten Konkrage's initial conversation with Tiznoast?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[Haflinger]

Edit: I know about the hard line stance Universalis took before the situation escalated, and I don't blame them. Maybe you have forgotten Konkrage's initial conversation with Tiznoast?

Heh, I'm not saying there weren't mistakes made on both sides. I probably know more than you do about that in fact.

I do think the initial point, which was that Echelon helped you guys out, and now they're getting fragged, is unquestionably true though.

[Lycurgus Rex]

Honour means everything in a world of pixels, because nothing else is worth anything.

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side ever mentions honour though? Why not be honest and just say that you are sticking by NPO is a political gamble and your hoping your continued friendship with the afore mentioned alliance will pay off when the war is over and you may be in a position of power? Lets not play the fool...In the Cyberverse there is no such thing as honour or morals. The whole MDP web was built on fear, nothing more. Its not surprising that these who bleat on and on about honour are these who are on the losing the side, its a shame they werent so honourable when they were the powers they once were. Oh well, I guess thats why the winning side is called karma after all.

You may be right. Maybe an honorable destruction is meaningless. Perhaps we should emulate Sparta in the future, and hold on to all we can. May you live forever, Lycurgus Rex.

There is no honour in destruction, there never was. Honour brings no benefit you know.only victory does. Surely thats a central core belief of the method of though known as francoism, which is in itself largely influenced by realpolitik, which should be understood by these who largely follow it.

^This.

Besides Rex, you havn't actually come out and said anything.

If you have a problem with Mhawk and TPF, you gonna voice it?

This is a new era of free speech and transparency, remeber?

I am posting arent I?..Like i said, honour doesnt win battles or bring any benefit.

Yes, I do condone Machiavellianism.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Lycurgus Rex

[BamaBuc]

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side ever mentions honour though? Why not be honest and just say that you are sticking by NPO is a political gamble and your hoping your continued friendship with the afore mentioned alliance will pay off when the war is over and you may be in a position of power? Lets not play the fool...In the Cyberverse there is no such thing as honour or morals. The whole MDP web was built on fear, nothing more. Its not surprising that these who bleat on and on about honour are these who are on the losing the side, its a shame they werent so honourable when they were the powers they once were. Oh well, I guess thats why the winning side is called karma after all.

There is no honour in destruction, there never was. Honour brings no benefit you know.only victory does. Surely thats a central core belief of the method of though known as francoism, which is in itself largely influenced by realpolitik, which should be understood by these who largely follow it.

I am posting arent I?..Like i said, honour doesnt win battles or bring any benefit.

Yes, I do condone Machiavellianism.

My oh my, what a cynic. You see, we CNers tend to get our priorities wrong. The pixels aren't real. They're just data on a server in Texas. But the people ARE real. So stand by your friends and to hell with the pixels, as far as I'm concerned. I doubt I'll have an infra pixel to my name when this is done. So? How do infra pixels benefit me anyway? Sure, we all play and enjoy the game, but at the end of the day, the pixels are worthless. Roll with your friends, and if need be, get rolled with your friends.

The losing side of every war talks about honor because they're fighting on despite heavy pixel losses. Sadly, around here, giving up your pixels for your friends is big news, not the standard. I look forward to the day when it's routine and no big deal, but I doubt I'll see it. Too many pixel huggers.

-Bama

[Trout]

(Btw, I have not had people attacking me for several days now, you guys should get on that. Just sayin.)

Nobody knows that you guys exist, that's why.

[Bob Janova]

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side ever mentions honour though?

Aspirations of honour are not limited to those who are losing this war.

[Lycurgus Rex]

Aspirations of honour are not limited to those who are losing this war.

Whoops, my bad, I should have said,

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side makes a topic mentioning its higher ground through obtuse arguments of honour every week

That better?

[Francesca]

Whoops, my bad, I should have said,

That better?

I don't believe that the defeated side is necessarily the only side to give a damn about honour. I've known some very honourable Karma members in this war. Then again, it depends how you define honour, just like everything else.

I should also add that I've met some very honourable Pacificans, but that's not really the point I'm making here.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Francesca

[schmutte693]

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side ever mentions honour though?... Lets not play the fool...In the Cyberverse there is no such thing as honour or morals. The whole MDP web was built on fear, nothing more. Its not surprising that these who bleat on and on about honour are these who are on the losing the side, its a shame they werent so honourable when they were the powers they once were. Oh well, I guess thats why the winning side is called karma after all.

To think for even a second that many members, if not most, of Karma do not believe that they are honorable, and possess the moral high ground, is a belief so wrong that I am having trouble coming up with the words to describe how wrong it is. Whether or not their opinion is true is another matter entirely, and not one that I am trying to discuss here. However, the very name "Karma" implies a (relative) moral high ground. To be the knowing agents of Karma is to act in accordance with justice...

There is no honour in destruction, there never was. Honour brings no benefit you know.only victory does. Surely thats a central core belief of the method of though known as francoism, which is in itself largely influenced by realpolitik, which should be understood by these who largely follow it.

Francoism is a crock of @#$% that has no core belief or method of thought except "Vlad talks good".

Back on topic... To believe that honor brings no benefit is, again, wrong. To believe that victory is the only means by which benefit is achieved is just as fallacious. Look at STA and tell me that their loss when defending Polar did not benefit them. Look at MK and tell me that their loss to the NPO, while only defending their allies, did not do them good..... You are a fool if you believe that they are not in a better strategic position today than they were previously. Again, I am not saying that those were the reasons behind those actions, but they are unarguably the consequences.

I am posting arent I?..Like i said, honour doesnt win battles or bring any benefit.

Yes, I do condone Machiavellianism.

Machiavelli , the rest I think I have covered already.

Whoops, my bad, I should have said,

Isnt it amusing that only the losing side makes a topic mentioning its higher ground through obtuse arguments of honour every week

That better?

Not really, a great number of poignant and political Karma posts reek of honor, as well as an assumption of moral certainty and their own just action.

Listen, I rarely post politically on here. But honestly... your assertion that TPF, and the Hegemony side in general, is the only one asserting its own honor and the justice of its actions is simply wrong. BTW, I only bothered to pull quotes from the most recent page, rather than the last 3 pages which I could have looked through.

Edit: only 1 typo... and some rephrasing

Edited June 24, 2009 by schmutte693

[igotsacane]

Heh. So everyone but your protectorate then. It's just nice for even TPF to admit HoT's abomination has been crushed beyond recognition as an alliance.

I did say all of our allies and of course that does include 64digits. I apologize for leaving them out of my original post, it was not intentional.

[Bob Ilyani]

so you're letting your alliance die for what they fight for? Respectable. I don't like you, but that has some honour in it.

[Vol Navy]

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but yes, there was an emergency defensive planning meeting when it looked like VE might get attacked towards the end of March, and you could consider that to be a 'side'. As it turned out that was a false alarm and we went our own ways until TPF and Valhalla hit mass peace mode, signalling an impending Hegemony attack, and most of the same people came together again to talk about defence if they hit someone connected to Citadel or SF.

The ironic thing is, we went into peace mode due to the aggressive anti-NPO tone on here and all the signs that war was going to be declared on them, thus on us as well.

[Qazzian]

*snip*

Yes, I do condone Machiavellianism.

Machiavellianism n. The political doctrine of Machiavelli, which denies the relevance of morality in political affairs and holds that craft and deceit are justified in pursuing and maintaining political power.

Here's hoping any and all of your allies (both in other alliances and in Sparta) can see you'd throw them under the bus for your own personal gain. I think the reason you dislike the talk of honor so much is because it's something you apparently (by your own admission) lack.

[mhawk]

We are still with you and will always remain there. Our balls are made of steel and our bodies powered by Energizers.

(Btw, I have not had people attacking me for several days now, you guys should get on that. Just sayin.)

You guys have always amazed us Magic, hero would be proud.

[OneBallMan]

I simply don't believe that. Maybe the alliances that cancelled their treaties and then stalled until day 3 thought that they'd lose when they eventually got around to entering, but there's no way that the NPO would start a war that they thought they'd lose – particularly when they would have known that with their history there would be no way they would be let off lightly if they were to do so.

I can speak for TPF when I say that we knew that we'd lose. Our intelligence dep't lead by <Redacted> and <Redacted> had this war dead on for months with the math all worked out. We had spreadsheets out the yang and let me tell you it was an ugly story back even months before it started. Let's be frank, once Polar and TOP stepped aside, even the Hail Mary scenario that our guys put together was shot.

That no one was listening on the Pacifica side, well that is another story for another day...

[WarriorConcept]

Here's hoping any and all of your allies (both in other alliances and in Sparta) can see you'd throw them under the bus for your own personal gain. I think the reason you dislike the talk of honor so much is because it's something you apparently (by your own admission) lack.

Not like you guys haven't done it before right?

[mhawk]

I simply don't believe that. Maybe the alliances that cancelled their treaties and then stalled until day 3 thought that they'd lose when they eventually got around to entering, but there's no way that the NPO would start a war that they thought they'd lose – particularly when they would have known that with their history there would be no way they would be let off lightly if they were to do so.

Ask crymson or drdan, we discussed this matter well before the war.

[1ofkind]

there is no good wrong mr.sacrifice of pixels

[Qazzian]

Not like you guys haven't done it before right?

Since the incidents in question happened before my time (or atleast before I knew enough about the wider world that is Planet Bob) I can only take the events at face value and say "touche". It's not something I would support, especially with proven allies, and given that my first real experience with throwing and buses had many allies of the NPO stepping backwards (yes, many came back, but we were still hit). However, my comment wasn't made in regards to Sparta as a whole, as Rex said that HE condones, not THEY condone.

[Bob Janova]

I can speak for TPF when I say that we knew that we'd lose.

This may be true, although if so I'm surprised that the NPO clearly didn't listen to you or anyone who shared your opinion. Once they had decided to go in, they dragged a lot of people down with them (although most of them have been let out already, and you almost certainly could be too if you wanted it).

The more one hears of the lead up to this war, the more the incompetence of the NPO seems to grow.

[Joe Izuzu]

Oh yeah, I'm sure you would stand by it, until it was convenient for you not to.

please. None of you people are trustworthy or even slightly honourable.

Coming from the artist formerly known as greenacres, the irony of this statement made me laugh harder than a rerun of Benny Hill.

[Gruthenia]

The more one hears of the lead up to this war, the more the incompetence of the NPO seems to grow.

So much so you'd think Karma was being harsh for *not* forcibly changing their government.

[Matthew Conrad]

You may be right. Maybe an honorable destruction is meaningless. Perhaps we should emulate Sparta in the future, and hold on to all we can. May you live forever, Lycurgus Rex.

The fact that you found yourselves on the losing side after driving away your allies due to how you started the war has no bearing on us. How little people forget we initially found ourselves on the wrong end of the stick and were ready to go down swinging. The fact that we won this war had a lot to do with your incompetence. If you had actually played your cards right like we thought you would, I should be getting beat down right now.

Now, the fact that you honored a treaty and are losing, you guys are martyrs right? The fact is we were ever so close to your position during the days before the war, but we wouldn't have to remind everyone of it every week if it had happened.

EDIT: Whoops typo

Edited June 24, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Big Z]

I can speak for TPF when I say that we knew that we'd lose. Our intelligence dep't lead by <Redacted> and <Redacted> had this war dead on for months with the math all worked out. We had spreadsheets out the yang and let me tell you it was an ugly story back even months before it started.

I'm going to call bs on that. All indications were that it would be dead even going in. 151 mil vs. 156 mil. 25,726 nukes vs. 31,118 nukes.

[UberSpion]

Honor isn't throwing your pixels to the wolves.... Sadly I see the CN version of what "honor" means just that...

1 a: good name or public esteem : reputation b: a showing of usually merited respect : recognition <pay honor to our founder>2: privilege <had the honor of joining the captain for dinner>3: a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office <if Your Honor please>4: one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit <an honor to the profession>5: the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon6: an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a: an exalted title or rank b (1): badge, decoration (2): a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military honors> c: an award in a contest or field of competition darchaic : a gesture of deference : bow eplural (1): an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2): a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course 7: chastity, purity <fought fiercely for her honor and her life — Barton Black>8 a: a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <wouldn't do it as a matter of honor> b: one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there>9plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <asked her to do the honors>

TPF has always been nothing but a bunch of punks. Every political move you have made has been BRILLIANT. You can be good at the game, you can prepare all you want for a war that EVERYONE saw coming for months... But when it comes down to it, honor is not letting the pixels go to the way side for your friends, for which I see no friendship at all. Like everything with TPF, it's just business. Honor is respecting your comrades, respecting your opponents, and having a history of treating others accordingly. I've seen many a protectorate and allies get hung out to dry and raided by yourselves. This isn't honor. War doesn't change the definition of the word. You are who you are, you are getting what you are getting. Peace mode isn't honor. Peace mode isn't supporting your allies. In this war, being stubborn isn't honor. Being stubborn isn't going to get you or NPO peace. Your version of honor is a joke sir.

Edited June 24, 2009 by UberSpion