Address from Commanding General

[AnCapistan]

To answer these 2 posts, thoeretically without any actual knowledge of the situations ie) "why would an alliance not attack when the ones they want to attack are politically isolated?" That ones easy. PR. If you attack an alliance with the intent of simply destroying them, without a valid CB "for their destruction", which would take quite a bit I might add, you are going to look very very bad.

Someone once told me a PC member recruited and spied on TPF shortly after the split. I don't know if that is true but if it is it's an adequate CB no doubt.

[Tygaland]

No, im pissed off at the world.

Well, you have fun with that.

Bullcrap=your "Karma" !@#$.

Examples?

[Augustus Autumn]

As always? Isn't this the same alliance that had to be gelded and basically embarrassed into joining the fight with its allies?

As opposed to the one you fought with who made agreements with its opponents, broke them, then cried foul when those choices came back to haunt them? I don't think you're in a position to be casting stones during this batner, ex-Chancellor.

[R3nowned]

Stand strong TPF. I regret not being with you on the battlefield right now, but I think I speak for the sentiments of TOOL when I say that you have your utmost respect and support.

o/ TPF

o/ Mhawk

[astronaut jones]

Stand strong TPF. I regret not being with you on the battlefield right now, but I think I speak for the sentiments of TOOL when I say that you have your utmost respect and support.

o/ TPF

o/ Mhawk

Join em, get back in the fight, otherwise you regret nothing.

[Hermes]

Well, you have fun with that.

Examples?

Dude, loosen up a bit.

An example of the Karma !@#$...you don't mean the fact that you are doing the same thing NPO did, you just have a reason that got you some good PR. do you?

Note: i am not condoning anything NPO did. Just saying your doing the same thing.

[Gecko]

Join em, get back in the fight, otherwise you regret nothing.

^^^ I second this ^^^

Dude, loosen up a bit.

An example of the Karma !@#$...you don't mean the fact that you are doing the same thing NPO did, you just have a reason that got you some good PR. do you?

Note: i am not condoning anything NPO did. Just saying your doing the same thing.

How does STA imitate NPO? We didn't START any wars.

Edited June 24, 2009 by King Alias

[Terminator]

^^^ I second this ^^^

o/STA

and i agree astronaut jones

hi king

Edited June 24, 2009 by Terminator

[Gecko]

I don't understand the whole point of this thread anyway.

o/ STA

Edited June 24, 2009 by King Alias

[Tygaland]

Dude, loosen up a bit.

Says the person pissed off at the world.

An example of the Karma !@#$...you don't mean the fact that you are doing the same thing NPO did, you just have a reason that got you some good PR. do you?

Note: i am not condoning anything NPO did. Just saying your doing the same thing.

You addressed the comment to me, not Karma. So, please show me my Karma !@#$ that you are referring to.

[shaiker]

While im not up on the honor bs but heres what i think.. A nations leader is put forth to do wha is best for the people of his nation. I would think the same goes for an alliance who blindly leads his member nations to death and destruction. While most will say a treaty is a treaty. But when member nations are marched against a war whose fault is none other that of their allies its foolhardy and a leader with such recklessness should be disposed. Same goes for nations of the NPO why keep a leadership thats recklessness led you down to your own citizens deaths. You would think a start to decent peace terms would be to take out the root of the problem. And sovereinty respected that would be your own responsibilities.

[Canik]

You obviously know nothing of the relationship between STA and NpO. Why do you think NpO seems to speak so highly of STA? I am taking nothing away from TPF and what they are doing as I respect it very much even if it is frustrating to see them getting blasted while those they are getting blasted for are only taking their own alliance members into consideration. In that sense TPF does have it worse but to claim that there is any doubt at all of how dedicated STA was to NpO is to speak from a position of extreme ignorance.

I'm not claiming doubt. I'm just saying there is a difference between "would have done it" and "did it". I asked if any other alliances HAVE endured so much for an ally, and not just for themselves. Not if they most certainly would have. I meant no offense, I have great respect for STA. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

o/ STA

EDIT:

How many of the STA's allies were at war when we accepted peace in the noCB War? Out of curiosity.

The STA stuck it out until the war was over and every one of our allies had received peace, just as we promised. There are no ifs or buts about it. The only difference between the STA and TPF is we didn't waver when called upon to defend our allies.

Your pathetic attempt to smear the STA and belittle her actions in the noCB war is a disgrace.

My attempt to smear? Tyga, I was just defending TPF. Kingzog just happened to bring STA up as an example. I never said anything against STA.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Canik

[Haflinger]

As someone that spent a considerable amount of time in Vanguard (how you managed to mask your ignorance during the application process is beyond me, but that's another story), you should have a much better understanding of the history behind the Vanguard/PAIN/Universalis vs Purple War. Vanguard entered a war against forces that vastly outnumbered our own in defence of Universalis. We dealt out over 400,000 damage to The Legion whilst only suffering a loss of 40,000 to our own total strength. We fought on until peace discussions initiated between Vanguard/PAIN/Universalis and The Legion, only for The Legion to have both Invicta and United Purple Nations attack Vanguard during peace negotiations (perhaps the New Pacific Order did learn something from The Legion, after all?). We not only threatened the use of nukes against Poseideon, we followed through. Vanguard, an alliance of 50 members at the time, remained on the battlefield against a coalition of hundreds until peace was a possibility to our newly acquired friends in PAIN, and Universalis demanded that we exit the war due to their plans of disbanding once their nukes were fired. There is a reason why Vanguard quickly became a home for the majority of PAIN members following the war, why Universalis sought protectorate status from Vanguard upon its reformation, why we are a member of Complaints & Grievances, why we have a collection of stalwart allies that would gladly enter any conflict on our behalf: we always stand by our friends.

I believe this to be an honest statement from Revanche's point of view; however he doesn't have all the facts, and the result is he is making certain misleading statements about what was happening.

I do notice that you still haven't acknowledged your 3:1 nuke advantage before Invicta and UPN joined the war.

So, what was that you said about Echelon demanding Poseidon back off? We fought multiple members of that bloc. Vanguard did The Legion a favour by being open to a peace agreement - not only was Vanguard tearing a hole through that alliance, both Echelon and Ragnarok were one day short of entering in our favour.

Echelon did in fact make certain demands, and certainly their support of your alliance in that incident had an effect.

And Vanguard is "flying high" right now because we never practiced eternal or permanent ZI...

You went to war in support of Universalis' demand for indefinite ZI.

The Legion attacked Universalis. Both members and government officials openly declared that those attacks were made due to target lists that had been drawn up. Peace negotiations did not result in a solution that was acceptable to both parties. An attack on Universalis was an attack on Vanguard, so we were obligated to defend them.

Oh yeah, let's skip to the "acceptable to both parties" part.

The Legion offered to pay Universalis full reparations for all damages incurred in the attack which involved one (1) Legion nation attacking one (1) Universalis nations.

Universalis' counteroffer was 50 million in reps, plus the expulsion of the Legion nation who attacked, so that Universalis could ZI him, and then at some later date ZI him again.

This is a situation where you expect to call on your MDP partners? That's a CB? "They wouldn't give us 50M in reps, plus let us ZI someone twice, the second time at a time of our choosing"?

Imagine if NPO had demanded OV do that to sethb. What would your reaction have been?

Fortunately, you're in C&G now. I can't see any of your current allies going for the crazy option so fast.

Don't sit there and pretend like any NAP signed is worth a damn to you.

Uhh.... no. That's mhawk you're talking about. Try and find him ever breaking a NAP.

MHawk hasn't led TPF long enough for a true culture to evolve, I know you not talking about the historic culture of TPF if you were you would never use a phrase like "no one left behind" because thats exactly what they did to their allies in UJP, Left Them Behind.

Quite honestly, here, I know where you're coming from, but trust me, mhawk makes a mark in a hurry. heh. There's no way he'd be still there now given what happened at the start of this war except if they'd moved to unconditional support of his policies.

[Tygaland]

My attempt to smear? Tyga, I was just defending TPF. Kingzog just happened to bring STA up as an example. I never said anything against STA.

Your smear is writing off the STA as only saying we would fight until our allies got peace when it is clear we actually did it. You can defend TPF all you like, but you do not need to belittle the STA to do so. Much less use untruths to do so. You haven't done it yet and won't until NPO gets peace.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Tygaland

[NoFish]

How is it different? They are forced to defend the NPO via a treaty. Something they take very seriously. If NPO went on the aggressive, they are allowed to. When the attacks were made against NPO, that brought them into this war, not the NPO declaration on OV. To me it makes no difference that NPO started a war. They were declared on and that is what brought TPF into the war. Could it have been avoided? yes but NPO is NPO and they $%&@ed up.

Because TPF clearly had nothing to do with the way this war started and was entirely left out of the war planning, I'm sure.

[pezstar]

Dude, loosen up a bit.

An example of the Karma !@#$...you don't mean the fact that you are doing the same thing NPO did, you just have a reason that got you some good PR. do you?

Note: i am not condoning anything NPO did. Just saying your doing the same thing.

Tyga and STA isn't doing anything that NPO did. We gave everyone white peace when we exited the war. We've had absolutely nothing to do with any peace terms offered to any alliances other than ones we were actively engaged with. In fact, when we offered input, we were more or less told to shove it. I think it's safe to say that STA is nothing like NPO.

But you knew that, didn't you. You just want an opportunity to bash someone. Carry on then.

[Hermes]

Says the person pissed off at the world.

You addressed the comment to me, not Karma. So, please show me my Karma !@#$ that you are referring to.

Hey man, im pissed off at the world because im not getting enough loving from the Aut for taking his heat atm.

Ehh bad troll you. I think you know what i meant, no need to reiterate it with changing a few words.

o/ The Dark Side of the Moon

[Hermes]

But you knew that, didn't you. You just want an opportunity to bash someone. Carry on then.

Everyone bash on Tyga.

^ New Trend since NPO isn't worthy anymore.

[Ragashingo]

I think it's great to stand beside an ally till the end. Only a handful of alliances have ever had to face such a situation and the TPF has added itself to that elite list. Well done. Anyone on that list deserves a measure of respect.

But there is a problem.

Everyone on that list cared deeply about their allies, but the TPF stands alone in that their allies care nothing for them. There are many example of how the NPO treats its allies but for brevity's sake I'll refrain from making a list. I do believe someone already mentioned one of the most recent examples, the NPO's attempted betrayal of TORN.

Oh, there's another problem.

The rest of the alliances on that list defended their allies because it was right. The TPF's actions may have been correct in terms of treaties and promises but neither a treaty nor a promise should be held above the simple difference between right and wrong. The fact is that defending the NPO in this war was absolutely the wrong choice. It meant standing up for the NPO's aggression in starting this war and their aggression in every other war they lead, participated in, or constructed.

So yes TPF, you have earned a measure of respect, but in my eyes that measure is lost in the tsunami of dishonor you have brought upon yourselves, whether it is recognized by most around here or not.

[Tygaland]

Hey man, im pissed off at the world because im not getting enough loving from the Aut for taking his heat atm.

You choice to jump in and defend him.

Ehh bad troll you. I think you know what i meant, no need to reiterate it with changing a few words.

o/ The Dark Side of the Moon

Ah, yes. Asking you to back up your accusation is "trolling". Gotcha.

[Tygaland]

Everyone bash on Tyga.

^ New Trend since NPO isn't worthy anymore.

Bring it.

[Canik]

Your smear is writing of the STA as only saying we would fight until our allies got peace when it is clear we actually did it. You can defend TPF all you like, but you do not need to belittle the STA to do so. Much less use untruths to do so. You haven't done it yet and won't until NPO gets peace.

I was replying to this post:

STA. Polar just surrendered faster than Pacifica.

I was inactive during the noCB war, it's one of the few wars I know little about. So, when Delta said Polar surrendered faster it sounded like it wasn't a long, enduring curbstomp you had to wait out for your ally. Hence my ignorant/misinformed response.

Still, not many names are coming up. A lot of alliances aren't willing to go that far, STA did, true, but what TPF is doing is still honorable. That's what I'm concerned about. I'm not here to try to smear STA.

I am taking nothing away from TPF and what they are doing as I respect it very much

[Matthew Conrad]

Hey man, im pissed off at the world because im not getting enough loving from the Aut for taking his heat atm.

Ehh bad troll you. I think you know what i meant, no need to reiterate it with changing a few words.

o/ The Dark Side of the Moon

Wow I am genuinely shocked you had the ignorance to call Tyga a troll.

[Hermes]

Ah, yes. Asking you to back up your accusation is "trolling". Gotcha.

Yes, Troll.

[Tygaland]

I was inactive during the noCB war, it's one of the few wars I know little about. So, when Delta said Polar surrendered faster it sounded like it wasn't a long, enduring curbstomp you had to wait out for your ally. Hence my ignorant/misinformed response.

Still, not many names are coming up. A lot of alliances aren't willing to go that far, STA did, true, but what TPF is doing is still honorable. That's what I'm concerned about. I'm not here to try to smear STA.

The war was about a month old when NpO surrendered. A long war, yes. Not as long as this one but that does not detract from the fact the STA did stand by her allies until they received peace. Something you claimed we did not do but only spoke about. I'm glad to have been able to clarify the actual events for you.