Address from Commanding General

[Matthew Conrad]

Like I would take your word. But to answer you rquestion, no I wasn't. I was in BANG and not very active either. It was after UJW that I actually started paying attention to OWF and getting active. Right when we folded into TPF. And to answer your next question/derogatory comment I had left with some others to fom Atarax and fought on the side of Polar, coming back to TPF after our alliance folded after the war.

Funny, almost the entire Gov has changed including mhawk as the Evil Overlord and the attitude of TPF has changed yet some keep going back to UJW as their justification of comments about TPF. I guess in the future people can point back to this war and Sparta's conduct as reason why to knock Sparta.

Yeah, people will have an awesome time knocking us for defending our allies in SF. You're the only ones, in your poor attempt latch on to anything, trying to say we switched sides. The fact is, we became closer to our friends outside of tC starting months ago and it is reflected in our current stance.

[Matthew Conrad]

The part where it doesn't seem to be changing.

Oh you mean the part where we defended our allies when we thought we were going to lose?

[Coven]

Yeah, people will have an awesome time knocking us for defending our allies in SF. You're the only ones, in your poor attempt latch on to anything, trying to say we switched sides. The fact is, we became closer to our friends outside of tC starting months ago and it is reflected in our current stance.

You guys sure did choose a perfect time to show that dedication to your new friends, when you well.. yah, sort of switched sides on us, your old friends. But I guess it's like with real life or anything, the more popular crowd gets the followers, because obviously loyalty is a thing of the past.

I look forward to when a new cool crowd comes around, maybe Sparta will ditch their friends and go with them too.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Airikr

[Matthew Conrad]

You guys sure did choose a perfect time to show that dedication to your new friends, when you well.. yah, sort of switched sides on us, your old friends. But I guess it's like with real life or anything, the more popular crowd gets the followers, because obviously loyalty is a thing of the past.

If you really want to try and go with that argument still, I can once again point to the UJW.

EDIT:

Yeah, the most convenient time to pledge our support was when we thought we would lose. Some people never cease to amaze.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Coven]

If you really want to try and go with that argument still, I can once again point to the UJW.

I wasn't with TPF at that time (Was in Invicta), and I've tried reading the wiki and found no answers, and I constantly see UJW mentioned. Can you please enlighten me as to what exactly happened and how TPF was involved? And no, this is not an attack, I just am sick of not knowing lol (please dont spin it, just say what happened). Thank you.

[Don Fernando]

New POLAR Order

edit: Spelling

While you talk about most of / all of TPF laughing because energizer stepped up and sent out a game mail, which has NO edit button, puts the name of the wrong order name in (not like hundreds of us haven't done that on occasion before) and then you go around editing your posts...one gets reminded about throwing rocks having something to do with glass houses...?

Let's not get started bickering, I still like / talk to some TPF guys, most of ya'll were fun to talk with. Your logic, however, still amazes me to this day.

@ Mhawk - Your not a bad guy, I've worked with you a bit, but if your the best man at containing an alliance that has HATED, and I mean literally hated PC since day one, I have to tip my hat to that. You did the best with what you had to work with on your end. You have made this game a lot more fun & kept many people around a lot longer then what they would have without the hostilities.

@ Everyone reading this, stop looking at TPF & PC, this war between us is OURS, and I treat wars like I treat my women & my pie...LOOK, but don't touch. Go get your own (Besides our allies still at it with us, your like our brothers nailing our GF's sorority sisters). I love beating a dead horse as much as the next guy, but these useless "I need to pat myself on the back to make myself feel better" posts & / or topics are getting...so...old.

I normally resist the urge to post, now that I have, I can go back to the GF & RL. Peace.

Editing to make "Someone" Happy ...

Edited June 25, 2009 by DonFernando

[astronaut jones]

If you really want to try and go with that argument still, I can once again point to the UJW.

EDIT:

Yeah, the most convenient time to pledge our support was when we thought we would lose. Some people never cease to amaze.

don't you know? TPF has HONOUR now. Mhawk brought it with him from elysium.

That means once mhawk took over, tpf turned over a new leaf and became a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ALLIANCE. They didn't keep the same path, or the same policies, they COMPLETELY CHANGED IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY.

[Roadie]

Oh you mean the part where we defended our allies when we thought we were going to lose?

You say that a lot, but in all honesty, you would have had to do some ham fisted calculating to reach that conclusion.

[Neo Uruk]

You say that a lot, but in all honesty, you would have had to do some ham fisted calculating to reach that conclusion.

Considering some people thought that TOP would fight for the Hegemony (from the start, not a late entry like they did with Karma) it is entirely conceivable.

[Alekhine]

Considering some people thought that TOP would fight for the Hegemony (from the start, not a late entry like they did with Karma) it is entirely conceivable.

I think TOP fighting for the Hegemony would have had a much more profound effect than purely the NS factor. I don't see a non-Citadel alliance in Karma's lineup that could have handled TOP's upper ranks. If they had entered on Hegemony's side (purely by themselves), it would have been a much different war.

[Tygaland]

So it is allowed for Sparta to make a quick change but TPF is not allowed to change?

I don't think either of them have demonstrated change to be honest. Lots of words, no actions. Purely survival instinct at work on both counts.

[OneBallMan]

I don't think either of them have demonstrated change to be honest. Lots of words, no actions. Purely survival instinct at work on both counts.

I'm sorry you don't think that losing a 100+ members and 6M in NS, being the only alliance not to have had peace talks is enough for you. We'll try harder.

[Tygaland]

I'm sorry you don't think that losing a 100+ members and 6M in NS, being the only alliance not to have had peace talks is enough for you. We'll try harder.

Not what I was talking about. I'm talking about alliance policy.

It is easy to say you have changed and that in future you'll be so much fairer to alliances you trample. Actions, on the other hand, are what really shows change. So, at the moment it is just words and not just from TPF but a number of alliances in this war. I wait in hope that the words are reflected in actions down the track.

I always wonder if the alliances that have apparently had an epiphany during this war would have had the same change in perspective had they won the war. I doubt it. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

[OneBallMan]

Not what I was talking about. I'm talking about alliance policy.

It is easy to say you have changed and that in future you'll be so much fairer to alliances you trample. Actions, on the other hand, are what really shows change. So, at the moment it is just words and not just from TPF but a number of alliances in this war. I wait in hope that the words are reflected in actions down the track.

I always wonder if the alliances that have apparently had an epiphany during this war would have had the same change in perspective had they won the war. I doubt it. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

Hmmm.. I think you are, imho, talking out your hindquarters on this one. Our actions have spoken loudest. Remarkably, they are very similar actions to a certain white alliance in standing with its oldest ally to the very end in a recent conflict. I don't ask for congratulations or approval, but at least recognize it when it reflects on you.

[Neo Uruk]

Hmmm.. I think you are, imho, talking out your hindquarters on this one. Our actions have spoken loudest. Remarkably, they are very similar actions to a certain white alliance in standing with its oldest ally to the very end in a recent conflict. I don't ask for congratulations or approval, but at least recognize it when it reflects on you.

Major difference, the STA knew it was going to be a stomp far before hand, when this conflict wasn't decided until a few days prior, and hadn't extorted/bailed on alliances prior to said stomping.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Rey the Great

[BamaBuc]

Major difference, the STA knew it was going to be a stomp far before hand, when this conflict wasn't decided until a few days prior, and hadn't extorted/bailed on alliances prior to said stomping.

Have you read the last several pages? Our estimates showed for months that we would probably lose. As for extortion, I assume you mean the OV discussions? I can't remember if reps were asked in those discussions, and how much. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't some exorbitant amount. Correct me if I'm wrong. And as for bailing... The so called CoC incident was based off false information. But that's a whole other can of worms.

-Bama

[KinKiac]

You keep ignoring the point - YOUR calculations may have given even sides

OUR calculations put the karma side ahead. This was known for several months before the war actually happened - hell slayer used to make "strategic situation" posts on our forums, which constantly had "the other side" well ahead, with the possibility of being even more ahead if certain other alliances fell the wrong way.

Stop trying to taint others with your lack of skill at working out the numbers. - we had it right, you had it wrong.

What does this have to do with the original statement that started this argument, that NPO thought they would win when they attacked OV? If both TPF and NPO had numbers saying that if you guys started a war that you would probably lose, then why did they start it? They wouldnt have, that is the point. They thought they would win when they declared, it didnt take long for them to realize that mistake and from that point on it was clear you guys were gonna lose yeah, but not when NPO declared, at least not to them.

Hey

We didn't create it, you and people like you created it by responding.

What with the war 'n all, our 'put a gun to your head and make you post' enforcers have been uncoordinated recently.

Yes, I believe it was your Emperor that created that thread. The 200 pages was just a response. Wasnt the response you were looking for, but it was still a response to a thread that YOUR Emperor created.

The funny part should be your lack of OPSEC, and the fact that we knew where you would fall in the War when you were allied to NPO. That we were able to acurately predict who would fall where with very few small excpetions shows exactly how good our Intel was, vs evidently your own either lack of intel or inability to read it right.

KingZog hit it on the head, our most optimistic projections had Karma at only a considerable advantage, if Admin had smiled on us and everything went our way, then we MIGHT have had a chance albeit a small one. But those were the optimistic ones, the most likely projections were pretty much spot on with what happened with maybe a slight tilt to the total curbstomp side. It hasn't come out before now, cause it hasn't come up.

Why is it that NPO either didnt have or didnt listen to your intel? Did they really attack OV with the knowledge that they would most likely lose?

[Tygaland]

Hmmm.. I think you are, imho, talking out your hindquarters on this one. Our actions have spoken loudest. Remarkably, they are very similar actions to a certain white alliance in standing with its oldest ally to the very end in a recent conflict. I don't ask for congratulations or approval, but at least recognize it when it reflects on you.

I think you are missing my point. A lot of alliances are now saying they have seen the light and telling all who will listen that they are now a different alliance with a new attitude to foreign affairs. Until that is actually tested then it is just words.

My comment has nothing to do with your current stance in this war nor anyone else's. I'm not sure how many times I need to point that out.

[KinKiac]

I'm sorry you don't think that losing a 100+ members and 6M in NS, being the only alliance not to have had peace talks is enough for you. We'll try harder.

Dont even try to use the "no peace talks" line in your defense. That is YOUR choosing. And, BTW how does that show you have changed, policy wise? Tyga was right, TPF right now is using word to try and say they are an honorable alliance. Their actions "in this war" may show some honor, but they dont negate all previous actions. STA was honorable AND known by its allies to be honorable long before the last war and didnt need multiple threads to prove that to anyone.

Hmmm.. I think you are, imho, talking out your hindquarters on this one. Our actions have spoken loudest. Remarkably, they are very similar actions to a certain white alliance in standing with its oldest ally to the very end in a recent conflict. I don't ask for congratulations or approval, but at least recognize it when it reflects on you.

No, they are not. STA was defending an ally that was attacked. TPF is "supporting" an ally that started a war it couldnt finish. These are 2 totally different situations and while there may be some similarities, you can not use your actions in this war to try and say that TPF is just as honorable as STA. Not gonna happen.

[Vol Navy]

This war was coming, everyone with a brain knew it. OV is just the incident that happened to kick it off and that was handled poorly. You also got some extra fuel thrown on the fire by the whole TORN/NPO misinformation event.

The fact that Sparta switched to Karma in the week before the war tells me all I need to know about who they truly thought would win the war and save their pixels. I suspect their projections were similar to ours.

LR merely confirmed that viewpoint with his "we were only allied to NPO to ensure our survival" post.

The whole "Sparta was young and didn't know any better" charade is laughable. You were closely allied for a long time. You were in Q with NPO for a long time. Right up until it became pretty clear that your pixels would be on the line. Then it was bye bye time.

If you find yourself on the bad side in the future and don't switch at the last minute, I'll take back what I've said here today.

Now go ahead and bring up UJW from 2 years ago when TPF had an completely different Gov and mostly a different member base than what is currently in the alliance. Don't look at the current actions, current membership and current gov because what happened 1, 2, or 3 years ago trumps what is happening now in this game from the point of view of many OWF posters.

[KinKiac]

This war was coming, everyone with a brain knew it. OV is just the incident that happened to kick it off and that was handled poorly. You also got some extra fuel thrown on the fire by the whole TORN/NPO misinformation event.

The fact that Sparta switched to Karma in the week before the war tells me all I need to know about who they truly thought would win the war and save their pixels. I suspect their projections were similar to ours.

LR merely confirmed that viewpoint with his "we were only allied to NPO to ensure our survival" post.

The whole "Sparta was young and didn't know any better" charade is laughable. You were closely allied for a long time. You were in Q with NPO for a long time. Right up until it became pretty clear that your pixels would be on the line. Then it was bye bye time.

If you find yourself on the bad side in the future and don't switch at the last minute, I'll take back what I've said here today.

Now go ahead and bring up UJW from 2 years ago when TPF had an completely different Gov and mostly a different member base than what is currently in the alliance. Don't look at the current actions, current membership and current gov because what happened 1, 2, or 3 years ago trumps what is happening now in this game from the point of view of many OWF posters.

What trumps the point of view of many OWF posters is the fact that you are supporting NPO. Ok, so lets say that your alliance is not the same as before, that you have changed member base and leadership and lets forget about your past. The fact still remains that you are displaying this "honor" of yours by supporting an alliance which is know to stab people in the back. You are supporting the same alliance that your previous Gov did. So far, you are doing the same thing you guys did in the past. So, why is it that we should all hail you again? Keeping your word to an ally is one thing, and does show some honor in that respect. But you guys are going down for the wrong reasons. You guys are going down supporting the bully. Its like punching the cop who is arresting your buddy for breaking a beer bottle over someones head at a bar. The honor you show in keeping your word to support your pal pales when taken into the context of what and who you are supporting.

[Kilkenny]

What does this have to do with the original statement that started this argument, that NPO thought they would win when they attacked OV? If both TPF and NPO had numbers saying that if you guys started a war that you would probably lose, then why did they start it? They wouldnt have, that is the point. They thought they would win when they declared, it didnt take long for them to realize that mistake and from that point on it was clear you guys were gonna lose yeah, but not when NPO declared, at least not to them.

Why is it that NPO either didnt have or didnt listen to your intel? Did they really attack OV with the knowledge that they would most likely lose?

The fact is the war was going to happen. Months before it happened the numbers were run and it looked fairly even, with us trailing a little and quite a few undeceideds. As time rolled on and more and more alliances left for Karma, became obvious where they truely were lining up (even if allied to NPO you know who) and the undeciededs fell on teh Karma side it became more and more obvious that we were heading for a losing war. Why did NPO go ahead and declare along with everyone else?? Well fact is even if NPO hadn't declared on OV, by this time Karma would have most likely had the numbers to Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them. So it was a matter of waiting around for the curbstomp, or go ahead and kick it off (although there were better reasons than the one chosen) and take a chance that the Mighty Admin would bless us adn we could at least reach a draw. Anyone on Karma who says that they thought they were going to lose, esp in those last few days is either incompetent or a liar. And when Sparta left NPO to join Karma officially, it was all over but the shouting.

Don F: You are right, there is an edit button here, but the messages came on several different days to TPF nations and Several of our nations responded LOLing at the mistake, yet they still came that way. That is why it is sooooo funny.

[Great Lakes Union]

I think you are missing my point. A lot of alliances are now saying they have seen the light and telling all who will listen that they are now a different alliance with a new attitude to foreign affairs. Until that is actually tested then it is just words.

My comment has nothing to do with your current stance in this war nor anyone else's. I'm not sure how many times I need to point that out.

I don't think we've claimed to have "seen the light" during this war, just said that most of the things people drag out to show that we are "monsters" are from a long time ago. I know this has been beat into the ground already, but seriously Tyga, what "awful things" have we done since mhawk took over almost a year ago?

[deth2munkies]

It's not that you're evil, it's that you're ramming down the "HAI WE'RE AT WAR, SO WE'RE HONORABLE" card down everyones' throat. You've made maybe 3 threads (although one was a "Personal statement" from mhawk) that make no announcement other than the fact you're still at war.

At this point, no one would really care if you got peace terms, nor care if you kept fighting, you've reached the point where there's diminishing returns on the PR bonus you're getting for needlessly dragging it out.

As for the "TPF has changed" argument, there's nothing really to support that before this war. Maybe the war is a turning point, maybe not. As of right now there is insufficient evidence, but the real question is how they will act once the war is over.

[Tygaland]

I don't think we've claimed to have "seen the light" during this war, just said that most of the things people drag out to show that we are "monsters" are from a long time ago. I know this has been beat into the ground already, but seriously Tyga, what "awful things" have we done since mhawk took over almost a year ago?

I haven't seen any change in policy since he took over. As I said, until I see any actions that show you have changed I cannot be sure you have. It is easy to say you have changed when there is no requirement to act. I certainly hope you have changed and will show mercy and decency to fallen foes in future.

And when I referred to "seeing the light" I was speaking generally, not specifically of TPF. In fact, I was referring to a number of alliances on both sides of this current/recent conflict. Alliances that happily applied horrific terms to fallen foes in previous conflicts now preaching to others about their leniency and honour while demonising alliances who dare seek reparations no matter how small or who now complain incessantly about how harsh or unfair terms they now receive are despite them being far lighter than anything they themselves meted out in previous conflicts.

There are genuine changes and changes of convenience. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on a lot of the "changed" alliances. I certainly hope the majority of them have changed. Time will tell.