Address from Commanding General

[Lycurgus Rex]

really enjoy when people insert invisible bridges between what a person actually said and what the quoter wanted them to say.

He never said anything relating our allies counting on us in the past, present, or future. He commented on what happened in the past when we were young and it was common practice back then to avoid the Pacifican curbstomp by way of signing treaties with them. Of course, you also forget we were a signatory of GUARD which was seen as a defensive measure against Pacifican aggression. Anyways, by the time we first joined tC internal relations had actually increased in favor of NPO and we were on very amicable terms. Thus, he then said our current stance is different from our past because we decided not to step aside for NPO.

The most saddening part of your post is your attempt to grasp what isn't there and come to nonsensical conclusions.

The problem is they take an alliance's official policy and then think the whole membership of an alliance thinks like that, and then in the same paragraph take one member's opinions and base the entire alliance's policies on the afore mentioned member's opinions...Which one is it? Cant win against that yet we do try to enlighten them. Giving up would be a sign of bad character I think.

Is TPF seriously going to bring up former alliances changing policy?, I call it being smart and adapting. Youwish...going to try tell me that NSO hasnt changed any policies to survive? I would rather think of a way to survive with my allies than stick to some foolish belief that its honorable for the lot of you to perish in flames and think you have won. NPO's terms for example...sure they are harsh, but getting staying in a losing war just to prove they have honour is just plain stupid. Surrender, pay the reps, become powerful again and then try again. Its common sense, I wont mind, I might get to fight next time even

Edited June 26, 2009 by Lycurgus Rex

[schmutte693]

The problem is they take an alliance's official policy and then think the whole membership of an alliance thinks like that, and then in the same paragraph take one member's opinions and base the entire alliance's policies on the afore mentioned member's opinions...Which one is it?

bad logic is bad. $3 million and 50 tech to the first person who can explain to me the failure of his statement.

edit: is nicer

Edited June 26, 2009 by schmutte693

[germanicus]

We are always ready to shoot at you. Don't slip up, we will be waiting.

dont worry we wont slip up and thank you for your concern.

btw jgoods just a little piece of info we will never let our selves be bullied by you nor would we show fear to bullies such as you keep that in mind.

rsoxbronco it pains me to see that you took the statement of a member of GRAN which holds no gov positions relating to Mhawk and used it to attack the whole of GRAN. When I think I have made it clear we love mhawk and TPF and have expressed it to him myself. Furthermore your alliance proceeds to openly show signs of aggression and blatant threats to an alliance not even a third athens size. We have publicly apologized to your government concerning our past mistakes and have tried to improve relations all we have gotten is out of line comments from you yourself in our irc channel and public threats of aggression from your MoFA.

Finnally I guess what I should learn from this particular experience is that bullies never stop do they but your right on one thing, things arent roxy between our two alliances at least I can rest knowing that we tried our best the rest time will tell.

mhawk I wont steal your thread any further ive said what I needed to say. You are a great man and leader and it pains me to see TPF the way it is but you are standing by your great allies and thats something to be admired I wish both you and NPO luck in acquiring peace and coming out of this strong.

o/ mhawk

[Azaghul]

I think we had very different "sides" from the beginning in our analysis, and it sure as heck ended up being pretty spot on. Umm, you mentioned worse case scenario. Worst case had ODN, Polar and TOP going neutral or worse with a bunch of pre-leading departures from tC. Yeah, that would pretty have been the worse case, and I will say that your topline numbers and ratios are not be be discounted. Obviously, we have the benefit of hindsight, I won't deny, but it is not as though there was antyhing in all this conflict that has been a total shocker, and our analysis sure as heck had TOP/MHA going Karma from Day 1. Add up the expectations we had on warchests based on growth rates and time out of war, and it was even uglier. Don't discount our friends in Vox and FAN being warchest drainers...

I don't beleive your attempt is to make this appear to be some great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma against fair odds. It is a great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma to have weakened your opponent prior to battle and then to pummel them.

Vox and FAN were very low range insurgents. They aren't a good excuse for why those in the upper ranks wouldn't have good warchests.

We all expected the sides to be roughly equal before NPO blundered so badly and lost all the fence sitters. I was predicting a war where we were outnumbered but with rough parity in nukes and an advantage in having more elite alliances like MK/Gremlins/Umbrella/FoK that would even things out.

[youwish959]

Youwish...going to try tell me that NSO hasnt changed any policies to survive? I would rather think of a way to survive with my allies than stick to some foolish belief that its honorable for the lot of you to perish in flames and think you have won.

We have never dropped out on our friends allies moments before a fight, nor will we ever.

Edited June 26, 2009 by youwish959

[Geoffron X]

We have never dropped out on our friends allies moments before a fight, nor will we ever.

Weren't you in TPF or something right before the war, and then dropped out to join the opposing team? And NSO isn't old enough to be tested in that way.

[youwish959]

Weren't you in TPF or something right before the war, and then dropped out to join the opposing team? And NSO isn't old enough to be tested in that way.

Try about 4 months previous to joining NSO. NSO was not on a "side" at the time either, and played a minor role in the actual war. I actually do not support Karma in their efforts against the Hegemony whatsoever. I just couldn't fight for the Hegemony, due to engagements prior to the war, that I refused to bail on.

And yes, I know NSO has not been tested in that way. He is the one who brought in NSO, and I'm just saying we will pass that test.

Edited June 26, 2009 by youwish959

[Lycurgus Rex]

We have never dropped out on our friends allies moments before a fight, nor will we ever.

When I went back to Sparta I thought the same, I called Tulak a coward and then I found out what had been really going on, so I changed my mind. Knowledge has a way of doing that you know..

And yes, I know NSO has not been tested in that way. He is the one who brought in NSO, and I'm just saying we will pass that test.

lol...childish logic...You question Sparta's integrity, yet I cant mention your alliance? Ok...

Edited June 26, 2009 by Lycurgus Rex

[Ellis]

Yes, I believe it was your Emperor that created that thread. The 200 pages was just a response. Wasnt the response you were looking for, but it was still a response to a thread that YOUR Emperor created.

Yeah, my Emperor created the thread, with just one post, not just over 3,000.

'Twas an infomation thread, not a disscusion thread, and like I said, you chose to respond.

Also, it was very much the response we expected.

[Sileath]

When I went back to Sparta I thought the same, I called Tulak a coward and then I found out what had been really going on, so I changed my mind. Knowledge has a way of doing that you know..

That's good you were enlightened concerning the greatness of Tulak Hord, perhaps my favorite person in the cyberverse

From my experience being in NSO, I would find it very, very unlikely that they would ever decline to honor a treaty, even if it meant the epic destruction of their infrastructure. There's a reason why they're so close to STA.

That being said, treaties have cancellation clauses for a reason. Sparta cut ties with tC/NPO and had the cancellation time period elapse well before the war began. Therefore, I can find no dishonor in Sparta's actions.

[NoFish]

Yeah, my Emperor created the thread, with just one post, not just over 3,000.

'Twas an propaganda thread, not a disscusion thread, and like I said, you chose to respond.

Also, it was very much the response we expected.

You had a typo in there, I went ahead and fixed that for you.

Also, I'm not sure why people keep talking about Sparta switching sides before the war. They've got a treaty with RIA with a 47 year cancellation period. Expecting them to be on the opposite side of a war from them would be like expecting MHA to side against Gremlins or us to side against VE. As near as I can tell they simply saw that they're treaties were soon going to be in conflict and canceled the one they felt the least connected to.

[Ellis]

You had a typo in there, I went ahead and fixed that for you.

Also, I'm not sure why people keep talking about Sparta switching sides before the war. They've got a treaty with RIA with a 47 year cancellation period. Expecting them to be on the opposite side of a war from them would be like expecting MHA to side against Gremlins or us to side against VE. As near as I can tell they simply saw that they're treaties were soon going to be in conflict and canceled the one they felt the least connected to.

Call it that if you like, my point still stands.

I'm not sure I can trust you on this though, you don't, after all, have any fish

[auto98]

Major difference, the STA knew it was going to be a stomp far before hand, when this conflict wasn't decided until a few days prior, and hadn't extorted/bailed on alliances prior to said stomping.

I've already commented on this - OUR side knew that we were going to get stomped, from several weeks prior - it is on our forums....

[auto98]

What does this have to do with the original statement that started this argument, that NPO thought they would win when they attacked OV? If both TPF and NPO had numbers saying that if you guys started a war that you would probably lose, then why did they start it? They wouldnt have, that is the point. They thought they would win when they declared, it didnt take long for them to realize that mistake and from that point on it was clear you guys were gonna lose yeah, but not when NPO declared, at least not to them.

Yes, I believe it was your Emperor that created that thread. The 200 pages was just a response. Wasnt the response you were looking for, but it was still a response to a thread that YOUR Emperor created.

Why is it that NPO either didnt have or didnt listen to your intel? Did they really attack OV with the knowledge that they would most likely lose?

Well, since those posts saying the other side would win do exist, that means either your side started the war, or you are wrong about someone starting a war they couldn't win.

Or, more liekly, NPO didn't think you were all going to pile in on THIS war - out predictions were "if there is a big war, we will lose" perhaps they didnt think it was going to be a big war?

Edited June 26, 2009 by auto98

[Kenji88]

o/ TPF I support u!

[HeinousOne]

You had a typo in there, I went ahead and fixed that for you.

Also, I'm not sure why people keep talking about Sparta switching sides before the war. They've got a treaty with RIA with a 47 year cancellation period. Expecting them to be on the opposite side of a war from them would be like expecting MHA to side against Gremlins or us to side against VE. As near as I can tell they simply saw that they're treaties were soon going to be in conflict and canceled the one they felt the least connected to.

But RIA didn't drop their treaty with NPO and RIA is not fighting NPO.

[Kilkenny]

But RIA didn't drop their treaty with NPO and RIA is not fighting NPO.

AARRRGGGHHHHH RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!! HeinousOne used that pesky Logic Bomb!!

It's not that you're evil, it's that you're ramming down the "HAI WE'RE AT WAR, SO WE'RE HONORABLE" card down everyones' throat. You've made maybe 3 threads (although one was a "Personal statement" from mhawk) that make no announcement other than the fact you're still at war.

At this point, no one would really care if you got peace terms, nor care if you kept fighting, you've reached the point where there's diminishing returns on the PR bonus you're getting for needlessly dragging it out.

As for the "TPF has changed" argument, there's nothing really to support that before this war. Maybe the war is a turning point, maybe not. As of right now there is insufficient evidence, but the real question is how they will act once the war is over.

This would be so much easier if 1) you actually READ the WHOLE OP, and 2) uhm, comprehended said OP. I'll help:

I would like to address that final point, this war is full of meaning for us. This is where all the world shall know what our word means.

However I do not see an end to this conflict in the near future so I'd like to honor those whom have fought with us with distinction against great odds. This war has cost us all dearly and as a leader I can not ask those whom have sacrificed so much to sit helpless on my word alone. The leadership of TPF holds your service and duty fullfilled above and beyond. Many of you had plans to create new homes just before this war and I would like the world to know I've asked you go ahead with your ambitions, you served us with distinction and we wish you the best in the future. You shall always be our friends and family.

Those that will remain at our side into this journey, words do not adequately convey my appreciation. Let us meet our destiny.

mhawk,

Evil Overlord,

The Phoenix Federation

Does that help??

Reading FTW!!!

Edited June 26, 2009 by Kilkenny

[OneBallMan]

Vox and FAN were very low range insurgents. They aren't a good excuse for why those in the upper ranks wouldn't have good warchests.

We all expected the sides to be roughly equal before NPO blundered so badly and lost all the fence sitters. I was predicting a war where we were outnumbered but with rough parity in nukes and an advantage in having more elite alliances like MK/Gremlins/Umbrella/FoK that would even things out.

Wow. I don't doubt in any way what you are saying, I sincerely don't, but I am surprised that there was even a thought that you were going to be outnumbered. Looking back at the data sets yesterday, we worked through various scenarios, and there was never a situation where we thought we were ahead in just about any category. As I said before, our intelligence guys did a masterful job of identifying who were the key tipping alliances (TOP, ODN, Polar et al.) and trying to assign them to one of three categories by likelyhood (Us, Them, Neutral).

You underestimate the amount of "raining down in aid" that Vox and FAN required to keep the low level guys at a war footing. That the Vox and FAN low levels were generally experienced warriors going against generally newer nations gave them a pain in the butt advantange.

[Lycurgus Rex]

That's good you were enlightened concerning the greatness of Tulak Hord, perhaps my favorite person in the cyberverse awesome.gif

lol...considering I have been on daily speaking terms with him for nearly 3 years I guess I can call myself enlightened...

[shahenshah]

You had a typo in there, I went ahead and fixed that for you.

Also, I'm not sure why people keep talking about Sparta switching sides before the war. They've got a treaty with RIA with a 47 year cancellation period. Expecting them to be on the opposite side of a war from them would be like expecting MHA to side against Gremlins or us to side against VE. As near as I can tell they simply saw that they're treaties were soon going to be in conflict and canceled the one they felt the least connected to.

Long-term cancellation period clauses don't always work out in the way they are supposed to. But its a good sign of friendship at the formation period of treaty.

[Tygaland]

Long-term cancellation period clauses don't always work out in the way they are supposed to. But its a good sign of friendship at the formation period of treaty.

My personal opinion is that long cancellation periods (months or years) are completely stupid. The only time the cancellation period matters is when one of the signatories wants out. A long cancellation period does not signify the strength of a friendship, it just keeps an alliance tied to another via a treaty they do not want for a longer period of time once they decide they don't want the treaty anymore.

While it may be great for show it is not much use in an operational sense.

[Kilkenny]

My personal opinion is that long cancellation periods (months or years) are completely stupid. The only time the cancellation period matters is when one of the signatories wants out. A long cancellation period does not signify the strength of a friendship, it just keeps an alliance tied to another via a treaty they do not want for a longer period of time once they decide they don't want the treaty anymore.

While it may be great for show it is not much use in an operational sense.

That is true, and besides it has been shown that all you have to do to break the treaty is just attack.... wait, that soounds familiar..

[Matthew Conrad]

That is true, and besides it has been shown that all you have to do to break the treaty is just attack.... wait, that soounds familiar..

I'm surprised by your ignorance on your matter because it seems your attempt to take a cheap shot missed the mark. Who are you saying broke a treaty by attacking? Everyone I've seen have waited for the cancellation period to expire before engaging.

[Lycurgus Rex]

Cheap shots will be used by cheap people I guess...

[Kilkenny]

I'm surprised by your ignorance on your matter because it seems your attempt to take a cheap shot missed the mark. Who are you saying broke a treaty by attacking? Everyone I've seen have waited for the cancellation period to expire before engaging.

And you talk about my ignorance.... there was a thread that went forever and a day about PC attacking us to break the NAP we had rather than wait the cancelation period.

Just saying....Of Course, makes you wonder. There was once this story I heard about a guy who threw a rock at a pack of dogs. One yelped, it turned out that was the one that got hit.