Address from Commanding General

[Augustus Autumn]

You realize that by defending Pacifica you are defending E-ZI, disbanding communities, creating war using lies and the right to install viceroys right?

As opposed to...?

I don't think the reasons for The Phoenix Federation being in the fight need to be rehashed yet again. A treaty is a treaty - unless you have the word "Optional" or an ideology clause (hats off to CCC on that one) it's an obligation.

[Roadie]

You realize that by defending Pacifica you are defending E-ZI, disbanding communities, creating war using lies and the right to install viceroys right?

Congrats on your supposed honor I guess.

I wish you would have told us this 2 months ago. We could have been spared our infras.

Anyway, thanks for correcting us. Now that we know this, we'll be looking for a way out this evening and hopefully leaving our allies behind by morning.

[ModusOperandi]

As opposed to...?

As opposed to issuing a pretentious statement in which you purport to have honor while fighting for dishonorable actions; way to go!

[Augustus Autumn]

As opposed to issuing a pretentious statement in which you purport to have honor while fighting for dishonorable actions; way to go!

I think you need to double check on who exactly I'm at war with at the moment

[Roadie]

As opposed to issuing a pretentious statement in which you purport to have honor while fighting for dishonorable actions; way to go!

If this was a pretentious announcement, than what on Bob were Vox announcements?

[HalfEmpty]

I wish you would have told us this 2 months ago. We could have been spared our infras.

Anyway, thanks for correcting us. Now that we know this, we'll be looking for a way out this evening and hopefully leaving our allies behind by morning.

RoadMan the remission of sin came quickly for our foes, new true believes is deh worst.

However I can assure you some of the folks didn't get to spend enough time in the baptismal pool (LOLPINK)(LOLSPARTA) to be well and truly washed of the sins of pacifica.

[Augustus Autumn]

If this was a pretentious announcement, than what on Bob were Vox announcements?

Actually, I thought most of them were pretty spiffy B)

[Roadie]

Actually, I thought most of them were pretty spiffy B)

They were. As a whole they had probably the best of any any alliance, but Good Admin, were a lot of them ripe with pretentiousness.

[SirWilliam]

In regards to the OP: So nothing's changing really? Thanks for the heads up.

[Vol Navy]

Wait, wait, wait.

Wait.

You heard people saying aggressive things on the forum and you decided that would be a good sign to drop into peace mode. Seriously? And then you decided to help orchestrate an offensive war against us? Wow. I don't want to accuse you of lying out your $@!, but the only other option is that mhawk is the worst alliance leader in this game since Terry Howard left us.

We had good reason to believe that NPO was going to get attacked eventually by what is now Karma. OBM put it much better a post or two after mine. We began preparing for a defensive war back in December and dropped into peace mode weeks before this broke out because tensions were high and we expected to be dragged into war due to aggression on the side that is now known as Karma. As it turned out Karma didn't have to go aggressive vs NPO, NPO grabbed the baited hook. Then you had the whole misinformation campaign that resulted in the TORN mess and here we are today.

Oh, and if you don't think that these boards are a good indicator of potential conflicts coming down the pike, I have a bridge to sell you after the war is over.

It's to the point now that the propaganda war on here is more important that the nation vs nation battling.

As to the other argument about sides, the only way it was close to even would have been if Sparta and company had stayed Hegemony. But as it turned out they were actually making war plans while allied to Hegemony.

[Bob Janova]

If you expected an aggressive attack then you are (were) more paranoid than I thought possible. A direct attack on the hegemony would have brought the whole MDP web crashing down on whoever was dumb enough to try it, even if anyone important wanted to do so. No aggressive attack would ever have got the support of Citadel, for example, or MHA.

These boards are a good indicator of tensions, at least if you read between the lines a little. But that doesn't mean that the tensions exposed here are going to go to war any time soon. I'm pretty confident that there would not have been an aggressive war started by a member of Karma in the forseeable future, and you guys would still be sitting there in your position of power right now.

[OneBallMan]

I'm going to call bs on that. All indications were that it would be dead even going in. 151 mil vs. 156 mil. 25,726 nukes vs. 31,118 nukes.

Yes my simple young friend, everyone knows that only NS and Nukes matter when calculating military strength. Now, for extra credit, go back and look at those "even" numbers and factor in MPs, WRCs, Pentagons, SDIs, FABs et al. Not even close. Then for super extra credit, do some math on Tech and Infra ratios at each NS tier. Even more unbalanced.

Please remind me to always be on the other side of a conflict with you and yours when the real numbers are in my favor.

[raincoat2]

Wow, your posts have sure deteriorated as of late. I see you have resorted to putting words in my mouth, nice. Please tell me where I said better tactical decisions meant picking the bigger side (I'll address that abomination of an argument here in a second). Better tactical decisions most often mean better allocation of resources (planning out who fights on what fronts) and picking the right time to attack. I'm sorry, but it is clear that both of those points were not addressed well by your military organizers.

Let's look at the facts.

Initial pre-war projections had about even sides, with the Hegemony with a slight advantage. Well damn, I guess we picked the bigger side huh? If Sparta, MHA, and TOP wanted to choose the bigger side and keep a position of pure political dominance, we would have joined NPO and quite possibly turn the tide of the war.

The fact NPO pulled that CB out of their $@! is about as much proof as I need. Anyways, I would hope you knew tension was already at an all time high between NPO's sphere and SF. At least, I would expect that much from someone of your position.

I would like both of you to clearly show out your prewar projections, both of you keep citing numbers without any explanation at all.

[Das Girl]

mhawk, I believe that what you are doing is honorable, and that in itself is rare enough these days.

I hope you realize, however, that your commitment to being the last one to quit the battlefield is something that your Red friends would never consider were the situation reversed. What they did to TORN on the first day of the war they would do to you, if given half a chance. All you are doing with your pledge is enabling them. Regardless of the gratitude they may express to you, their only real concern is themselves. I've no doubt about this.

You're no fool, so you have probably come to this conclusion yourself, but see no way out given what you have said since the beginning of this war.

I can see how you might be conflicted, given the circumstances. You have given your word, and no one with a trace of honor wants to go back on their word. After all, it really is all we have in a world of pixels. But your alliance is now a mere shadow of what it once was.

Historically, the members of my alliance have not been the greatest fans of The Phoenix Federation, so I hope you will realize that I have nothing to gain by saying that I, for one, do not wish to see your alliance destroyed. I fear, however, that the course you have chosen will ultimately lead to that.

So, with that in mind I hope you will take a page from your ally's playbook and put the interests of your alliance and its members ahead of the New Pacific Order.

Realize that if TPF were to walk away from this war, not a single person of any importance would hold it against you. Not now. Not ever.

I don't know what kind of reparations have been suggested or whether any offer has been made at all. What I do know is that TPF, applying the resolve it has displayed in this war, would be able to easily meet any demands put to it.

I hardly expect you to say, "Gosh kingzog, you're right! I'm going to call the Karma Surrender Hotline^tm right now!" But I do hope you will at least reflect on what I'm saying in the days and weeks ahead. No doubt you have the full support of your government and your members, and I cannot imagine that this support would diminish in the slightest.

Regardless of the path you ultimately choose, when all is said and done my offer to drop by for a chat once this mess is over still stands.

You have my respect.

Very well put KingZog.

To Mhawk and TPF, I have nothing but admiration for the dedication that you have shown to your allies. You have proven yourselves as true allies good to your word.

I will not fault you for the dedication that you have shown, but I do question at this point what you feel that you are accomplishing this far into the war. I do not mean this as an insult, so please do not take it as such. Those who wish to attack NPO, will attack the NPO. I truly believe that you are simply being beat at this point without really taking any substantial pressure from your ally. I have seen you fight, I have seen your numbers drop and have seen the courage you have shown, there is a time however to realize that you are simply not effective any longer except to grind yourselves further to dust. You have fought and you have fought well at incredible odds and for what it is worth I praise you for that strength which few others have.

I know a suggestion to you to surrender at this point would be a fruitless effort, so I will not do so. Instead, I do hope that the New Pacific Order will encourage you to step away and take your wounded from the field and let them heal and bury your dead. TPF, you have suffered far too much.

Das Girl bows her head and recognizes a moment of silence for those who have lost their lives in this war.

[Great Lakes Union]

Very well put KingZog.

To Mhawk and TPF, I have nothing but admiration for the dedication that you have shown to your allies. You have proven yourselves as true allies good to your word.

I will not fault you for the dedication that you have shown, but I do question at this point what you feel that you are accomplishing this far into the war. I do not mean this as an insult, so please do not take it as such. Those who wish to attack NPO, will attack the NPO. I truly believe that you are simply being beat at this point without really taking any substantial pressure from your ally. I have seen you fight, I have seen your numbers drop and have seen the courage you have shown, there is a time however to realize that you are simply not effective any longer except to grind yourselves further to dust. You have fought and you have fought well at incredible odds and for what it is worth I praise you for that strength which few others have.

I know a suggestion to you to surrender at this point would be a fruitless effort, so I will not do so. Instead, I do hope that the New Pacific Order will encourage you to step away and take your wounded from the field and let them heal and bury your dead. TPF, you have suffered far too much.

Das Girl bows her head and recognizes a moment of silence for those who have lost their lives in this war.

I thank you for your kind word, but this is just something we must do. It would be a bitter peace if all of our friends did not share in it.

[Gruthenia]

Everybody knows destroyed infra converts to honor at a 20:1 ratio and considering the rather large deficit of "honor points" TPF had at the beginning of this war, it's rather rude of those of you asking TPF to get out of the war to do so. At the current rate of destruction it'll be another couple weeks before they're out of the hole.

[KinKiac]

Someone once told me a PC member recruited and spied on TPF shortly after the split. I don't know if that is true but if it is it's an adequate CB no doubt.

Touche, that may have been cause for a valid CB, but would it have been a valid to completely destroy an alliance for? The was one of the main points I was making, yes they may have had a CB to go to war but would it have been a valid CB to completely destroy an alliance.

It's things like this that I find to be ultimately silly about how things work on Bob. What kind of logic is it that changing a name means more than changing Gov and the direction of the alliance?

By that logic NPO could just change their name and leave everything else (Moo, IO's etc) exactly as it is now and no one should have a problem with them.

No, thats not what I meant. You are actually reversing the logic in my post. What I meant is that if the new Gov wanted to completely remove all the negative stigma of TPF's history, it would have been better to change the name "as well as the Gov". I didnt say they couldnt get past that negative stigma, just that it is always going to be there as long as they are TPF. When people see the name TPF, they think of all the things TPF as an alliance has done, not just what they have done under Mhawk. Mhawk may very well indeed be changing their direction along with the new Gov(however the fact that they still support NPO is at least in one way showing the same direction) but as long as they are still TPF they will have that history, people wont forget that and TPF(and thier allies for that matter) cant simply ignore their history. You cant expect people to just say "oh you changed gov, well now all is forgiven." It just doesnt work that way. When the number of honorable things TPF has done outnumbers the number of dishonorable things TPF has done, then maybe people will change their minds. You cant just change Gov and expect that all will be forgiven. If you are going to merge alliances and you disagree with the things that one of the 2 is known for and you want people to give you a clean slate it might be better to take on the name that doesnt have a bad history. Just sayin'. Thats not a silly way to look at things IMO.

[schmutte693]

I didnt say they couldnt get past that negative stigma, just that it is always going to be there as long as they are TPF. When people see the name TPF, they think of all the things TPF as an alliance has done, not just what they have done under Mhawk.

I would not exactly agree. The average user of the OWF seems to remember an alliance only as far back as its last memorable action. There are exceptions (NPO?) but generally speaking, I would say that after this TPF will be considered "redeemed" (whatever that is supposed to mean) in the eyes of the average Cyber Nation.

[Big Z]

Yes my simple young friend, everyone knows that only NS and Nukes matter when calculating military strength. Now, for extra credit, go back and look at those "even" numbers and factor in MPs, WRCs, Pentagons, SDIs, FABs et al. Not even close. Then for super extra credit, do some math on Tech and Infra ratios at each NS tier. Even more unbalanced.

Please remind me to always be on the other side of a conflict with you and yours when the real numbers are in my favor.

I didn't want to clog up my post with extraneous numbers. However, if you want them, I can give them too.

Karma had only a 200 SDI wonder advantage. 170 WRCs. 219 FAFBs. With the exception of the the 800 MP advantage by Karma, the advantages weren't too large nor impossible to be made up, especially when you consider the fact that they include TOP+MHA on the side of Karma, which prior to the war buildup, was impossible to ascertain, as Bob Janova can confirm.

Taking their combined stats away from the previously aforementioned, that leaves the advantages -20 SDIs, +42 WRCs, +557 MPs, +68 FAFBs. So once again, I state, it wasn't as lopsided as you're claiming, by far, unless you're considering absolute worst case scenario.

Karma had a 3.911 Infra:Tech ratio. Hegemony had a 4.198 Infra:Tech ratio. Take out MHA+TOP with Karma and you get Karma's ratio of 4.034 Infra:Tech ratio.

Edit: Forgot to remove TSO from the scenario as well. Their impact switch would further level the numbers even further. removing another 40 SDIs, 25 WRCs, 30 MPs, and 14 FAFBs. That would bring the total to -60 SDIs, +17 WRCs, +527 MPs, +54 FAFBs. Karma's Infra:Tech ratio would increase to 4.071 Infra:Tech

Edited June 25, 2009 by Big Z

[Matthew Conrad]

RoadMan the remission of sin came quickly for our foes, new true believes is deh worst.

However I can assure you some of the folks didn't get to spend enough time in the baptismal pool (LOLPINK)(LOLSPARTA) to be well and truly washed of the sins of pacifica.

Your poor attempt at insults is lacking at best. As I've answered this nonsense plenty of times in numerous threads, feel free to find me on IRC if you wish to know why your post is remiss, to put it lightly.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Matthew Conrad

[Coven]

Very well put KingZog.

To Mhawk and TPF, I have nothing but admiration for the dedication that you have shown to your allies. You have proven yourselves as true allies good to your word.

I will not fault you for the dedication that you have shown, but I do question at this point what you feel that you are accomplishing this far into the war. I do not mean this as an insult, so please do not take it as such. Those who wish to attack NPO, will attack the NPO. I truly believe that you are simply being beat at this point without really taking any substantial pressure from your ally. I have seen you fight, I have seen your numbers drop and have seen the courage you have shown, there is a time however to realize that you are simply not effective any longer except to grind yourselves further to dust. You have fought and you have fought well at incredible odds and for what it is worth I praise you for that strength which few others have.

I know a suggestion to you to surrender at this point would be a fruitless effort, so I will not do so. Instead, I do hope that the New Pacific Order will encourage you to step away and take your wounded from the field and let them heal and bury your dead. TPF, you have suffered far too much.

Das Girl bows her head and recognizes a moment of silence for those who have lost their lives in this war.

Thank you for the kind words, they really do mean a lot. Yes, you are correct, at this point there is not much else we can do in this war, but we have chosen a path, made a promise, and until that oath is fulfilled, that is the direction we must go. So we will continue to do any damage we can. Our nations may be battered and broken, and we may have lost some good friends along the way, but out spirit is still strong, we will make it. This is just something we must do, not for anyone else, but for ourselves.

[KinKiac]

I would not exactly agree. The average user of the OWF seems to remember an alliance only as far back as its last memorable action. There are exceptions (NPO?) but generally speaking, I would say that after this TPF will be considered "redeemed" (whatever that is supposed to mean) in the eyes of the average Cyber Nation.

Maybe. But most of the "average Cn'ers" dont frequent OWF, or at least they dont post. Most of the regular posters here are vets and Gov. It is the opinion of Gov that will change others opinions of alliances such as NPO and TPF. I personally dont have anything against them, I do believe they have shown honor in this war, at least Mhawk anyway. I still think it will take some time even after this war is over for many to forget TPF's past and truly judge them based on their recent actions.

[deth2munkies]

Not to sound too crass, but why should we care?

This is about the 3rd announcement you've made reminding everyone "Hey, HEY! We're still at war, look at us!" We get it, you're still at war. Until you want to surrender or something significant happens, you don't need to inform the whole community. All it does is make you sound pretentious and remind those warring you to check for targets.

[Haflinger]

I'm going to call bs on that. All indications were that it would be dead even going in. 151 mil vs. 156 mil. 25,726 nukes vs. 31,118 nukes.

Those weren't the numbers TPF was projecting. You'd best believe them when they say they were expecting to lose this war.

[OneBallMan]

I didn't want to clog up my post with extraneous numbers. However, if you want them, I can give them too.

Karma had only a 200 SDI wonder advantage. 170 WRCs. 219 FAFBs. With the exception of the the 800 MP advantage by Karma, the advantages weren't too large nor impossible to be made up, especially when you consider the fact that they include TOP+MHA on the side of Karma, which prior to the war buildup, was impossible to ascertain, as Bob Janova can confirm.

Taking their combined stats away from the previously aforementioned, that leaves the advantages -20 SDIs, +42 WRCs, +557 MPs, +68 FAFBs. So once again, I state, it wasn't as lopsided as you're claiming, by far, unless you're considering absolute worst case scenario.

Karma had a 3.911 Infra:Tech ratio. Hegemony had a 4.198 Infra:Tech ratio. Take out MHA+TOP with Karma and you get Karma's ratio of 4.034 Infra:Tech ratio.

Edit: Forgot to remove TSO from the scenario as well. Their impact switch would further level the numbers even further. removing another 40 SDIs, 25 WRCs, 30 MPs, and 14 FAFBs. That would bring the total to -60 SDIs, +17 WRCs, +527 MPs, +54 FAFBs. Karma's Infra:Tech ratio would increase to 4.071 Infra:Tech

I think we had very different "sides" from the beginning in our analysis, and it sure as heck ended up being pretty spot on. Umm, you mentioned worse case scenario. Worst case had ODN, Polar and TOP going neutral or worse with a bunch of pre-leading departures from tC. Yeah, that would pretty have been the worse case, and I will say that your topline numbers and ratios are not be be discounted. Obviously, we have the benefit of hindsight, I won't deny, but it is not as though there was antyhing in all this conflict that has been a total shocker, and our analysis sure as heck had TOP/MHA going Karma from Day 1. Add up the expectations we had on warchests based on growth rates and time out of war, and it was even uglier. Don't discount our friends in Vox and FAN being warchest drainers...

I don't beleive your attempt is to make this appear to be some great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma against fair odds. It is a great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma to have weakened your opponent prior to battle and then to pummel them.