Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Sileath]

And this is why we are telling you, no, you wanted the first real E-War in CN, you got it. 19 alliances, keeping a total of 5 down with over 2k nations on ourside which is 2/27 is about 8% of the total nations in CN. So basically you want to do to us what some countries in RL have done. I would give examples but I that would derail the thread.

NPO opposes lopsided wars?

Also, this thread needs more Zhadum.

[Azaghul]

That's not counting money taken in ground battles or destroyed in defeat alerts.Also when you factor in the preterms the final number would be what?

These numbers include the pre-terms I believe. Ground battles against 3 guys is 6mill lost a day, or 5 mill via defeat alert. That doesn't include won ground battles either defensive or offensive. 5mill*20 days = 100 mill. That still leaves plenty on a 300 mill+ warchest, and is barely a fraction of a bill+ warchest.

[askani the rotund]

I think you misunderstand his point. He is saying that 20 measly nations alone can pay off the reps in 7 months. They have massive war chests, max improvements, and many many wonders. These 20 nations alone could pay off the war debt.

Nuking deserve improvements or wonders. If only 20 warchests survive out of the many, the NPO can meet the terms. More likely, many more warchests will survive and the reps can be paid off quicker and more easier.

You might be correct,maybe I do misunderstand.What is the final with those preterms added? Is that payable in 7 months?

[Denial]

Keep repeating that often enough and it might become true?

It is very funny how people resort to politico-speech when they are sprouting off propaganda.

It was true from the very moment Pacifica, in the last throes of its hegemony, struck out against a small, relatively unconnected alliance, in an attempt to divide and conquer the growing movement of alliances that had tired of Pacifica's underhanded tactics and bellicose actions.

[Zeta Defender]

2. Doing some quick research (asking in IRC...) it appears that the GATO court system has existed in one form or another since 2006. Now is it the exact system they have today. Probably not. But GATO has long been known for having a well established (and occasionally painfully slow) justice system.

3. Bad things happen to aid programs after three months of war against vastly overwhelming odds.

5. I guess technically this is my second day. GW1 was fun. Hopefully this day will last a whole lot longer.

Well court wasn't there when we got there. Also aid programs don't suffer because of losing nations, they suffer if they lose leadership.

To be honest you are lucky you are not being made to have a viceroy you should be glad to be giving terms at all (my own presonal feeling)

OOC: Against the ToS to be forced to give or do anything outside if personally owned.

Also terms that are E-Terms (eternal terms) compared to E-War. I go with E-War.

[Bower3aj]

I think you guys should rename yourselves to "The Revenge Coalition" since this isn't about

Karma its about spite and revenge. Or "KHORNE BERZERKERS" since you all scream "BLOOD BLOOD

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!"

Karma n: 1. (In Hinduism or Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

2. Theosophy. the cosmic principle according to which each person is rewarded or punished in one incarnation according to that person's deeds in the previous incarnation.

or in layman's terms: Bad or good things happen to reflect the past actions of someone

even easier to understand: bad things happen to bad people

HEY! this war and these reps fit the definition of Karma. Sorry it isn't convenient.

[Zeta Defender]

It was true from the very moment Pacifica, in the last throes of its hegemony, struck out against a small, relatively unconnected alliance, in an attempt to divide and conquer the growing movement of alliances that had tired of Pacifica's underhanded tactics and bellicose actions.

Looks who talking. While you claim we are bad, we have had members go rouge and offer to spy to Karma, so please don't tell me about underhanded tactics and bellicose actions as for one to do something so against anything they believe I choose to believe Stockholm's syndrome

Edited June 13, 2009 by Zeta Defender

[askani the rotund]

These numbers include the pre-terms I believe. Ground battles against 3 guys is 6mill lost a day, or 5 mill via defeat alert. That doesn't include won ground battles either defensive or offensive. 5mill*20 days = 100 mill. That still leaves plenty on a 300 mill+ warchest, and is barely a fraction of a bill+ warchest.

I'd like to see whether those preterms included or not.Wouldn't you in our position?

[Jack Diorno]

I am personally sickened at this shameless PR attempt by NPO, and Mhawk follows it up with a low punch on Londo.

First of all, Londo has been a level headed negotiator between the alliances on the NPO front and NPO itself, without Londo you guys wouldn't even have terms to reject this appalling manner. Londo was trying to bring peace and now you throw this slander against him? you just burnt one of the few bridges left to a peaceful resolution.

Londo deserves better then the disgrace of having snakes such as you utter his name.

Secondly, NPO, Moo, lackeys, Stop.

Stop squealing, stop being such a stubborn mule, you forced countless alliances to pay absurd terms over and over, 'karma' is realized and you now find yourselves in the same position that you put other alliances in through your despicable reign over this planet.

This is not hypocrisy, this is not karma going back on our promise of being different, this is exactly what we said it would be, what goes around comes around, buck up, be men, take your medicine, stop whining.

[Denial]

[07:06] <HellScream[VE]> Infiltrating NPO with multis with my rl friends....so fun

[07:06] <HellScream[VE]> I keep on screwing with their tech stroe

[21:05] <Demeanor[blackstone]> a real detriment to morale would be to um... get a few to cancel at the same time

[21:06] <Demeanor[blackstone]> friends that have stronger bonds with each other moreso than NPO

[21:06] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> RIA will cancel next

[21:06] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> RIA im 99% sure

[21:06] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> actually I can guarentee it

[21:10] <Demeanor[blackstone]> so

[21:10] <Demeanor[blackstone]> how do we do this?

[21:10] <Demeanor[blackstone]> a meeting with all of them

[21:10] <Demeanor[blackstone]> visit one of them one by one?

[21:10] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> yessir

[21:11] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> I suggest RIA forst

[21:11] <Demeanor[blackstone]> heh

[21:11] <Demeanor[blackstone]> we've had some bad dealings with RIA

[21:11] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> o rly?

[21:11] <Demeanor[blackstone]> We won't be able to convince them of anything.... we'll have to convince NPO to cancel on them

[21:11] <Demeanor[blackstone]> which we can do easily

[21:11] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> how?

[21:12] <Demeanor[blackstone]> By registering an account on our forums from a RIA person

[21:12] <Demeanor[blackstone]> and let them "disclose" some things that RIA is doing that is anti-NPO

[21:12] <Demeanor[blackstone]> create a RIA frenzy

So, you've got a VE member joking around, and sethb speaking with a representative from Blackstone? Oh no! I spoke to Vox members on numerous occasions throughout their struggle against tyranny. Does that mean there was a valid casus belli against Vanguard? I imagine TPF is in contact with NPO as this war wages, so does that mean those alliances on Karma's Pacific front should now also declare on TPF?

[Zeta Defender]

These numbers include the pre-terms I believe. Ground battles against 3 guys is 6mill lost a day, or 5 mill via defeat alert. That doesn't include won ground battles either defensive or offensive. 5mill*20 days = 100 mill. That still leaves plenty on a 300 mill+ warchest, and is barely a fraction of a bill+ warchest.

I would love for you to add up all the infra and say with a straight face the lose is better than being in war. I would rather give blood to the blood gods and give you a red cent. And I would rather delete than give you the satisfaction.

[bbrownso]

You think these are bad, wait until TPF sees theirs.

P.s. I commend Pacifica on their policy change, props to you.

So TPF, a smaller alliance than NPO, is going to get worse terms? Wow, do you speak for you alliance?

[silentkiller]

Infra is nothing when you end the war with 100 mill+. 78 of those nations have 2000+ tech. Nations can buy back up to 1000 tech if they have to.

I have 2200 tech. I sure dont have any 100 mil lying around. Maybe 100mil zimbabwean dollars but I hear they are worthless.

[mhawk]

I am personally sickened at this shameless PR attempt by NPO, and Mhawk follows it up with a low punch on Londo.

First of all, Londo has been a level headed negotiator between the alliances on the NPO front and NPO itself, without Londo you guys wouldn't even have terms to reject this appalling manner. Londo was trying to bring peace and now you throw this slander against him? you just burnt one of the few bridges left to a peaceful resolution.

Londo deserves better then the disgrace of having snakes such as you utter his name.

Secondly, NPO, Moo, lackeys, Stop.

Stop squealing, stop being such a stubborn mule, you forced countless alliances to pay absurd terms over and over, 'karma' is realized and you now find yourselves in the same position that you put other alliances in through your despicable reign over this planet.

This is not hypocrisy, this is not karma going back on our promise of being different, this is exactly what we said it would be, what goes around comes around, buck up, be men, take your medicine, stop whining.

Then londo should stop bragging to mutual friends how he is delivering his vengence in writting these terms.

[Batallion]

Has everyone forgotten about FAN? NPO should be forced to disband, even presenting them terms is a spit in the face of all the wrongs they have done. With regards to TPF, they should disband for what they did to Norden Verein. 'Nuff said, both these alliances are garbage.

[Denial]

Looks who talking. I know for a fact Athens was willing to accept a rogue NPO member as a spy so please don't tell me about underhanded tactics and bellicose actions.

If he was declared a rogue by the New Pacific Order, how exactly could he do any spying? My understanding is that Pacifica expels nations they consider rogues. Oh, except when they're accepting nations that have wronged other alliances that had neither the strength nor influence to persuade Pacifica to do otherwise.

[iamthey]

Well-deserved numbers right there.

Let no one forget the crimes in Pacifica's past, nor the fact that it was once again unjustified Pacifican aggression that pushed the world into conflict.

They can get peace. They have been offered fair, reasonable and just terms, and have selected instead to remain at war.

Your side has an odd tendency to place responsibility on whoever has been selected as a messenger of our coalition. First, the peace mode ultimatum was entirely due to the evil machinations of Ragnarok and Gen Lee, and now the surrender terms offered were only from Athens? Both were agreed upon by all alliances at war with the New Pacific Order.

What's ridiculous is the spin attempted by your incompetent Emperor in his announcement. The reparations are easily payable, within a few months, by an alliance that is self-labelled as one of the great economic and organisational powers in the Cyberverse.

The comparison between Pacifica and Polaris is entirely invalid, due to the fact that Polaris' reparations had to be paid by a select handful of nations. With Pacifica's total technology still well over 400k, and many nations over the 1,000 technology mark, they are more than capable of sending out 300k technology over a period of 3-4 months.

No alliance in Karma was responsible for 'spying away' the 'secrets' of the New Pacific Order.

No, a whole lot of peace mode nations is what makes up the New Pacific Order

The nations Pacifica possesses that maintain over 1,000 technology can not be described with the term "handful". There are 178 nations above that mark, with 78 nations possessing above 2k technology. An additional two weeks of war would likely not lessen the number of Pacificans with 1k technology or more to a number less than 70. Besides, many Pacificans currently in the range of 1-2k technology still have sizeable warchests that could be utilised towards repurchasing a couple hundred technology or so, if Pacifica wished to increase the number of nations to be deal with reparations payments. As for your comment about 1/6 (wow, a sixth? Big deal.) of those nations nearing ZI, I wasn't aware that would stop them sending out technology reparations or made them unable to make some repurchases with left-over warchest funds.

What did the New Pacific Order expect to happen when the world finally grew tired of its unjustified aggression, stood up as one entity, and declared enough was enough? There is no alliance more deserving of these terms.

OOC: Yes, a game that was rendered unplayable for many people by the actions of the New Pacific Order.

Yes, I'll certainly miss all those posts of yours in favour of Karma. Oh, wait.

The reparations were determined by individual alliances submitting what they saw as justified for the damage inflicted upon them by the New Pacific Order, and the total was then adjusted to reflect the penalties of the peace mode ultimatum that Pacifica failed to comply with.

The New Pacific Order's unjustified aggression has to be checked and appropriately reprimanded for Karma to be happy.

The New Pacific Order remains at war through its own choosing. Time and time again Karma has opened avenues for peace for Pacifica, and each time they have been rejected. Karma seeks to return the world to peace as soon as possible, but the peace will be determined by the victors, not by the belligerents that have been beaten down.

This line of thinking that Karma's Pacific front will "crumble" hasn't gone too well for Pacifica so far.

I believe you've heard incorrectly.

I'll just respond to your message as a whole revanche. I just want to know, do you really feel this way, or are you just the spokesman that is on message pushing the agenda? Because the entirety of what I have seen from you expresses a vehemence, [ooc]and serious OOC dislike[/ooc] that takes me a bit off guard. You refer to Moo, as an "incompetent" leader and you call his own I'd say fairly objective publicizing of the terms with of of course their own opinion and reasons for rejecting the terms a "ridiculous spin" when the very people you now represent acted the same way in response to acts of pacifica that they took objection with. Does NPO not have a right to deny the terms that were offered and express their own consideration that they are unfair, and unreasonable? Or do they lose that privilege because they lost the war?

You sit here basically defending a set of terms on the grounds that they are not that bad, but at the same time you say the NPO deserves harsh punishment; you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If the terms are not that bad then what exactly do they serve to do? If their effect is nothing more than a numerical transfer of in game assets with little to no negative effect or hardship on the alliance then why don't we just waive the reps all together and you guys can just tech farm new members with little to no added cost to yourselves? And if they are that bad and they do exist for a purpose, to punish and cripple the NPO, then why are you denying that they do this? So as that question is answered; (if they do nothing then there is no reason for the reps other than I guess some poorly conceived idea that the receivers of the reps are some how profiting on the spoils of war. In reality though they would have easily been able to get technology and money on their own vial mutual farming and simply collecting taxes...) we have to assume for the integrity of your argument, that they are that bad.

So lets see if they are. Assuming that 90% of the alliance comes out of peace mode that means that approximately 1500-2100 infrastructure will be lost per nation over the 14 day period as most of these nations are going to be within nuke range in both of the war periods. They are further going to lose an equally sizable amount in tech. As a result many of them will be anarchied, and those that are anarchied (basically all of them) will further be bill locked. Right now there are many within pacifica (there are already 209) anarchied who are also presently bill locked and unable to receive aid to get out of it. So all those presently bill locked and anarchied will continue to be trapped post war as the aid will be going into the pockets of the receiving alliances, and the war chests will have to go into the rebuilding of the destroyed nations just so that they can pay the reps. Or conversely they will have to rebuild themselves from scratch over many months after losing their war chest to the reps.

Furthermore you failed to address the fact that this entire thing would be a logistical nightmare, NPO would have to order the alliance out of peace mode which many would either refuse to do, or would be too inactive to do rapidly. Which means in the buffer time between getting to 90% which will probably stretch out over at least half a week but could be as long as a week all those nations would be subjected to attack which would not be considered time spent on the 14 days. This would further cripple the alliance, and yes they could just boot out people that are long time alliance members but personally I and many others would find karma forcing them to do so rather appalling especially considering many karma alliances would never boot a nation on the demands of a foreign power.

Post war as the money is drained to rebuild, tech would have to be the primary source sent to pay the reps, taking a look at the stats myself I see some grim numbers. Not even a quarter of the way down the first page is the top amount of tech 3.5k, and by the third page as high as it goes is 1.5k. If the tech bar is 1k that means that the alliance presently has less than 200k tech that is legally payable (Since the tech of a paying nation can't drop below 1k) under the terms. Which makes them already impossible to pay. And after the attacks it would only be worse.

So that being said these terms are by far the worst, most hindering, and by your own tone mean spirited terms ever issued. Pacifica used viceroys at a time when viceroys were in vogue. They aggressively went to war over CB's that were generally speaking accepted, and they had many of the very karma alliances now destroying them now standing beside them at the time. Furthermore in regards to reps last I checked the highest reparations demand ever made was against polar totaling 100k (if you include Gre's tech farming term). Most of those alliances are presently karma, and perhaps what is even worse they were all directed on a small group of people basically forcing that group to give away their entire nation. Tactics and allowed actions in war have changed with time; to single out the NPO because they happened to be the last one standing is nothing short of hypocritical.

[ooc]As for game mechanics... you have advanced an argument that pacifica has made the game unplayable to many. I'd argue that without a bad guy, or without multiple sides to clash against one another this game would be rather dull (like an extreme version of the peace existing up until this war), and that the losses in players would be even greater than those lost under "the abuses" of pacifica. The fact of the matter is the game needs a bad guy, and if everyone played the card of the defensive moral crusader the game would be quite dull, and only entertain the few of us who have anything to do with politics.[/ooc]

[Merrie Melodies]

I am personally sickened at this shameless PR attempt by NPO, and Mhawk follows it up with a low punch on Londo.

First of all, Londo has been a level headed negotiator between the alliances on the NPO front and NPO itself, without Londo you guys wouldn't even have terms to reject this appalling manner. Londo was trying to bring peace and now you throw this slander against him? you just burnt one of the few bridges left to a peaceful resolution.

Londo deserves better then the disgrace of having snakes such as you utter his name.

Secondly, NPO, Moo, lackeys, Stop.

Stop squealing, stop being such a stubborn mule, you forced countless alliances to pay absurd terms over and over, 'karma' is realized and you now find yourselves in the same position that you put other alliances in through your despicable reign over this planet.

This is not hypocrisy, this is not karma going back on our promise of being different, this is exactly what we said it would be, what goes around comes around, buck up, be men, take your medicine, stop whining.

WOW, how many FAN threads have these boded words echoed through in the past, for shame!

[mhawk]

So, you've got a VE member joking around, and sethb speaking with a representative from Blackstone? Oh no! I spoke to Vox members on numerous occasions throughout their struggle against tyranny. Does that mean there was a valid casus belli against Vanguard? I imagine TPF is in contact with NPO as this war wages, so does that mean those alliances on Karma's Pacific front should now also declare on TPF?

Were you actively aiding and building up spies? If so go ahead and declare on us.

[Zeta Defender]

Has everyone forgotten about FAN? NPO should be forced to disband, even presenting them terms is a spit in the face of all the wrongs they have done. With regards to TPF, they should disband for what they did to Norden Verein. 'Nuff said, both these alliances are garbage.

You want to force us to disband, we can only disband if we choose to. Anything other is not possible in this system we are in. Also you call us garbage, we have survived 3 yrs and TPF over 2, you think we don't have the resolve to go another 20, think again.

[Lord Valleo]

These numbers include the pre-terms I believe. Ground battles against 3 guys is 6mill lost a day, or 5 mill via defeat alert. That doesn't include won ground battles either defensive or offensive. 5mill*20 days = 100 mill. That still leaves plenty on a 300 mill+ warchest, and is barely a fraction of a bill+ warchest.

Ah so someone agrees there where "pre-terms" when so many stated such was not true

[hizzy]

tough break for NPO.

On a relative playing field though, I wouldn't call them the harshest terms ever.

Someone from Polaris should be made emperor. I know Viceroys are illegal, but I'm talking about a bona fide emperor.

[Ragashingo]

Well court wasn't there when we got there. Also aid programs don't suffer because of losing nations, they suffer if they lose leadership.

The first viceroy disbanded pretty much all of GATO's government. Maybe the court wasn't there when YOU got there, but it existed for nearly two years prior to the war. Aid programs do suffer when most of your nations are in bill lock.

[Angrator]

Thank you for being the guy to tell us how to war. I really would have loved to see you post this last summer. As for infra is nothing, even with 100M, that is nothing ask any Grem nation, if you don't have at least a billion, you are out of luck and after 2 months of war, I agree with them fully.

I'm sure that you would have loved all of us to post like this last summer. You don't have to tell me why. We know the way that you worked. You would take your invisible pens, and write our names down on invisible paper in invisible ink. Then some time later, our governments would be in anarchy.

NPO, guess what? I don't for a second believe that you wouldn't crush us all right now if you still had that ability. I also know that you will definitely try in the future to crush those who are fighting against you. So guess what? These terms are fair. If they give us another day where we are free from the boot of the NPO, then they have done what they intended. This terms are not revenge. They are more like protection from your dirty underhanded politics.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Angrator

[Roadie]

Total Money: $1,113,857,551

Total Money: $1,267,529,738

Total Money: $1,699,932,018

Total Money: $1,136,036,247

Total Money: $1,711,792,074

Total Money: $1,421,839,591

Total Money: $1,244,063,943

Total Money: $1,938,438,773

Total Money: $1,043,641,046

Total Money: $1,930,090,228

Total Money: $1,194,043,392

Total Money: $2,328,024,511

Total Money: $1,171,050,808

Total Money: $1,176,646,437

Total Money: $1,308,527,513

Total Money: $1,267,529,738

Total Money: $1,100,891,822

Total Money: $1,346,086,976

. Clearly the NPO can't afford to pay off reps. [/sarcasm]

Now try deducting the cost of going all out for 3-5 weeks of 3v and 4v1s.