I hate GGA drama

[TehChron]

It was at this point that Moo should have realized that the information that he received from mhawk was faulty, unless he had an agenda to push.

Or he panicked and had complete faith in mhawk?

Quit wasting your time grasping at straws, sileath.

[Earogema]

Oh that was a coup too. Probably. At least they only went after one triumvir then IIRC.

But then, why was it okay then?

I guess it's because the new guy didn't lie to mhawk!

[Teriethien]

Oh that was a coup too. Probably. At least they only went after one triumvir then IIRC.

Wasn't it done through legal mechanisms as prescribed by the charter? How's it a coup if it's legal?

[Sileath]

Or he panicked and had complete faith in mhawk?

Quit wasting your time grasping at straws, sileath.

I'm not a foreign affairs leader, but is this how notification of threats happen? No evidence, just a rumor, and when the people you're warning tell you that you're wrong, you scream in all caps that war is imminent?

[Kylliah]

It was at this point that Moo should have realized that the information that he received from mhawk was faulty, unless he had an agenda to push.

See, I look at all that and I see splitting hairs over terminology. I can only imagine how much moreso it would've seemed that way to someone actually involved in the situation.

We have the benefit of sitting back and seeing all this after the fact, piecing it together in a calm and (somewhat) orderly fashion. None of them had that benefit.

[Haflinger]

But then, why was it okay then?

I guess it's because the new guy didn't lie to mhawk!

Oh you won't catch me posting in a really pro-GGA fashion in Protected Nation either. Heh.

I'm pretty sure most of their allies were embarrassed by that disaster too.

[Firestorm]

This is probably one of those deals that will tell the average thinking type about the logic of playing your cards close to your chest. Really GGA, all you had to do is sever the treaties without going into detail as to why you severed them.

At least that would have been the smart thing to do.

[uaciaut]

This reminds me of the circus. It's been so long since I was last at a circus. How precious

Yeah, this thread is a good place holder till i go to a real one again :V

[TrotskysRevenge]

I'm not a foreign affairs leader, but is this how notification of threats happen? No evidence, just a rumor, and when the people you're warning tell you that you're wrong, you scream in all caps that war is imminent?

When they told me the information was wrong, I then said then I had wrong info. The all caps was in the beginning to get their attention from the intense discussion on internal issues they were having.

Since you are working so hard to find me at fault, the only thing I am to blame for is giving my ally information of a possible threat. I didn't think it would be cool for them to discover themselves at war again so I told them as soon as I was told. Reliability of information is often determined by the credibility of the source. Mhawk has always been a credible ally. Once the information was given, then GGA was free to verify with Athens, which they did. I did what I felt was in the best interests of my ally.

Before they accepted terms, GGA asked how we would feel. I encouraged them strongly to accept peace as they would have only been destroyed completely had they remained in the war. Your attempts to insinuate that I had an agenda of getting them back into the war is quite far from reality.

EDIT: I am off for the night as I have to work early tomorrow. Have fun!

Edited May 26, 2009 by TrotskysRevenge

[nutkase]

From reading all the logs and discussions, I think this is just a miscommunication that got waaaay out of hand

[CptGodzilla]

I'm not a foreign affairs leader, but is this how notification of threats happen? No evidence, just a rumor, and when the people you're warning tell you that you're wrong, you scream in all caps that war is imminent?

pretty much, yeah

[Sileath]

I expect a medal from someone for solving this mystery.

Let me throw out two possibilities.

Screenshots swear-edited by GeorgetheGreat

Either:

1. At 00:04, Ironchef told mhawk that Athens was pulling terms in order to deceive mhawk. Mhawk then told Moo via Skype, then Moo told GGA government immediately - within the minute - that this was going to happen.

Contradiction:

[12:03:53 AM] Mhawk says: athens is pulling terms

[12:04:00 AM] Mhawk says: gga violated terms

[12:04:27 AM] Mhawk says: there was to be no gov change

Mhawk sees Ironchef's query, and talks to Moo on Skype. It took 34 seconds for the beginning of mhawk's talking to Moo until mhawk finally gets out what the "terms violation" was.

Total lines said within one minute:

[00:03] <ironchef> Athers is goign to pull terms

[00:03] <ironchef> as they just got broke

[00:03] <ironchef> No gov was to leave the GGA

[12:03:53 AM] Mhawk says: athens is pulling terms

[12:04:00 AM] Mhawk says: gga violated terms

[12:04:27 AM] Mhawk says: there was to be no gov change[

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you guys are $%&@ed

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you can't leave

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I'm not

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> and you need t o get them back

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> ASAP

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I left

09[00:04] <&ironchef> degen deleted

The times don't match up because they're system times. Look at the time stamps on the screenshots.

Because remember, the story is that ironchef told mhawk, who told Moo, who told ironchef.

To reiterate -> for this version to be true, ironchef says 3 lines to mhawk, mhawk gets onto the Skype chat to take 34 seconds to say 3 lines to Moo, Moo gets off his scrabble game to talk in the GGA channel, and then 7 lines are said in the GGA channel, all within one minute.

Come on...

2. Moo tells ironchef that Athens is breaking terms, ironchef queries mhawk within a minute to tell him.

Now tell me which version is more plausible.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Sileath

[Gears of War]

I honestly have no idea what's going on anymore and have a headache to boot. Would one of my allies please PM me a summary when this gets solved? Thanks.

I'm going to bed now.

[Londo Mollari]

When they told me the information was wrong, I then said then I had wrong info. The all caps was in the beginning to get their attention from the intense discussion on internal issues they were having.

Since you are working so hard to find me at fault, the only thing I am to blame for is giving my ally information of a possible threat. I didn't think it would be cool for them to discover themselves at war again so I told them as soon as I was told. Reliability of information is often determined by the credibility of the source. Mhawk has always been a credible ally. Once the information was given, then GGA was free to verify with Athens, which they did. I did what I felt was in the best interests of my ally.

Before they accepted terms, GGA asked how we would feel. I encouraged them strongly to accept peace as they would have only been destroyed completely had they remained in the war. Your attempts to insinuate that I had an agenda of getting them back into the war is quite far from reality.

EDIT: I am off for the night as I have to work early tomorrow. Have fun!

That's true that you said that, I have seen logs of it. However, there is also the fact that you supported KFH and SWR as the leaders of GGA (and their plan to leave and mass recruit from GGA's membership to form a "new GGA". There are several points that lead me to believe this. 1) GGA told me so. 2) mhawk confirmed it to me. 3) You deliberately withheld information about the identity of the person who had told you about the threat to GGA from shaneprice and the rest of the leadership 4) shaneprice has proven to be anti NPO in the past and it would be illogical for you to support him or even not to work against him. This establishes motive for you to act against a GGA led by these individuals.

I saw an IO blitz on my IRC channel when this first went down and I saw them all leave just as quickly. I've seen NPO out in force tonight more than any other night of the war except since maybe the very beginning. They are clearly fighting pretty damned hard to keep their PR. The question in the end is reduced to whether you believe that Moo supports his allies or whether he stabs them in the back. And in the end, you can ask GATO, Legion, CIS, VE, FAN, GOONS, Genmay, \m/, NpO, and many others how steadfast Pacifican support has been.

GGA on the other hand? They've done dumb stuff. They've done downright cruel stuff. But when have THEY stabbed an ally in the back, hmm? Moo and many other Pacificans are intelligent and well spoken, and NPO knows how to run a propaganda machine like no one's business. But that doesn't make them right. ;-)

[Londo Mollari]

I expect a medal from someone for solving this mystery.

Let me throw out two possibilities.

Either:

1. At 00:04, Ironchef told mhawk that Athens was pulling terms in order to deceive mhawk. Mhawk then told Moo via Skype, then Moo told GGA government immediately - within the minute - that this was going to happen.

Contradiction:

Mhawk sees Ironchef's query, and talks to Moo on Skype. It took 34 seconds for the beginning of mhawk's talking to Moo until mhawk finally gets out what the "terms violation" was.

Total lines said within one minute:

[00:03] <ironchef> Athers is goign to pull terms

[00:03] <ironchef> as they just got broke

[00:03] <ironchef> No gov was to leave the GGA

[12:03:53 AM] Mhawk says: athens is pulling terms

[12:04:00 AM] Mhawk says: gga violated terms

[12:04:27 AM] Mhawk says: there was to be no gov change[

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you guys are $%&@ed

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you can't leave

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I'm not

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> and you need t o get them back

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> ASAP

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I left

09[00:04] <&ironchef> degen deleted

The times don't match up because they're system times. Look at the time stamps on the screenshots.

Because remember, the story is that ironchef told mhawk, who told Moo, who told ironchef.

To reiterate -> for this version to be true, ironchef says 3 lines to mhawk, mhawk gets onto the Skype chat to take 34 seconds to say 3 lines to Moo, Moo gets off his scrabble game to talk in the GGA channel, and then 7 lines are said in the GGA channel, all within one minute.

Come on...

2. Moo tells ironchef that Athens is breaking terms, ironchef queries mhawk within a minute to tell him.

Now tell me which version is more plausible.

Very nice Sileath. I think you do deserve a medal. Here you go. This is the Athens Karma War Badge. Wear it with pride, and note the ironic new meaning as well.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Londo Mollari

[CptGodzilla]

I expect a medal from someone for solving this mystery.

Let me throw out two possibilities.

Either:

1. At 00:04, Ironchef told mhawk that Athens was pulling terms in order to deceive mhawk. Mhawk then told Moo via Skype, then Moo told GGA government immediately - within the minute - that this was going to happen.

Contradiction:

Mhawk sees Ironchef's query, and talks to Moo on Skype. It took 34 seconds for the beginning of mhawk's talking to Moo until mhawk finally gets out what the "terms violation" was.

Total lines said within one minute:

[00:03] <ironchef> Athers is goign to pull terms

[00:03] <ironchef> as they just got broke

[00:03] <ironchef> No gov was to leave the GGA

[12:03:53 AM] Mhawk says: athens is pulling terms

[12:04:00 AM] Mhawk says: gga violated terms

[12:04:27 AM] Mhawk says: there was to be no gov change[

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you guys are $%&@ed

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you can't leave

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I'm not

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> and you need t o get them back

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> ASAP

09[00:04] <&ironchef> I left

09[00:04] <&ironchef> degen deleted

The times don't match up because they're system times. Look at the time stamps on the screenshots.

Because remember, the story is that ironchef told mhawk, who told Moo, who told ironchef.

To reiterate -> for this version to be true, ironchef says 3 lines to mhawk, mhawk gets onto the Skype chat to take 34 seconds to say 3 lines to Moo, Moo gets off his scrabble game to talk in the GGA channel, and then 7 lines are said in the GGA channel, all within one minute.

Come on...

2. Moo tells ironchef that Athens is breaking terms, ironchef queries mhawk within a minute to tell him.

Now tell me which version is more plausible.

You sir, must have never used skype.

Moo never used "athens are pulling terms" till 00:05. Moo could have read mhawk's first line and said "you guys are screwed" then reiterated at 00:05 when the full information came in

Also if you look, Mhawk starts his skype chat at 12:03:xx, while ironchef was telling mhawk at 00:04 which means there is a time difference there, yet we are unsure as to how large of one

edit: Time difference in terms of timestamps

Edited May 26, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[Geiseric]

I'm afraid to question what's the llama doing.

[Sileath]

You sir, must have never used skype.

Moo never used "athens are pulling terms" till 00:05. Moo could have read mhawk's first line and said "you guys are screwed" then reiterated at 00:05 when the full information came in

Also if you look, Mhawk starts his skype chat at 12:03:xx (an hour behind everyone else) while ironchef was telling mhawk at 00:04 which means there is a time difference there, yet we are unsure as to how large of one

Time differences are fail. That's why we're using the screenshots.

For Moo's version to be true:

Ironchef tells mhawk -> mhawk tells Moo via Skype chat -> Moo tells GGA government

We know that the mhawk-Moo conversation takes 34 seconds. The very last line in the Skype chat says that GGA's crime was the government change.

In the original 7 lines of 00:04 of the screenshot of the GGA government chat, actually the first two lines Moo says are:

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you guys are $%&@ed

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you can't leave

"You can't leave" specifically is referring to what mhawk said via Skype chat about GGA's crime being their government change. This means that Moo saw all three lines of mhawk's statement prior to saying his second line, therefore at least 34 seconds had passed.

In that magic 26 seconds:

Ironchef queries 3 lines to mhawk

mhawk makes his way onto Skype chat

Moo gets off Skype chat into the GGA channel

7 lines are said in the GGA channel - lines by Moo or by Ironchef about what Moo said, not just random spam in the channel

That's 6.5 seconds per above action.

[CptGodzilla]

Time differences are fail. That's why we're using the screenshots.

For Moo's version to be true:

Ironchef tells mhawk -> mhawk tells Moo via Skype chat -> Moo tells GGA government

We know that the mhawk-Moo conversation takes 34 seconds. The very last line in the Skype chat says that GGA's crime was the government change.

In the original 7 lines of 00:04 of the screenshot of the GGA government chat, actually the first two lines Moo says are:

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you guys are $%&@ed

[00:04] <@Moo-Cows> you can't leave

"You can't leave" specifically is referring to what mhawk said via Skype chat about GGA's crime being their government change. This means that Moo saw all three lines of mhawk's statement prior to saying his second line, therefore at least 34 seconds had passed.

In that magic 26 seconds:

Ironchef queries 3 lines to mhawk

mhawk makes his way onto Skype chat

Moo gets off Skype chat into the GGA channel

7 lines are said in the GGA channel - lines by Moo or by Ironchef about what Moo said, not just random spam in the channel

That's 6.5 seconds per above action.

time differences not in accordance to timezones, but in terms of timestamps when you log.

My 00:04 could be your 00:00, or 00:02 or anything around there, not all computers are completely accurate.

also, you didn't have all screen shots, you only had screen shots from ironchef. The mhawk -> Skype log wasn't a screen shot which is what shoes the discrepancy

Edit: After actually reading your post, you have never used skype. It takes a second to get into a skype chat. You don't have to get off said chat. Also don't forget about the 3 lines by Ironchef in the first screenshot (probably more than 3, but it was cut off)

Edited May 26, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[Heft]

GGA on the other hand? They've done dumb stuff. They've done downright cruel stuff. But when have THEY stabbed an ally in the back, hmm? Moo and many other Pacificans are intelligent and well spoken, and NPO knows how to run a propaganda machine like no one's business. But that doesn't make them right. ;-)

Are you really going to try and turn this into a matter of whether the NPO or GGA is "worse?" Because I can't see that debate going anywhere good, or productive.

[Sileath]

time differences not in accordance to timezones, but in terms of timestamps when you log.

My 00:04 could be your 00:00, or 00:02 or anything around there, not all computers are completely accurate.

also, you didn't have all screen shots, you only had screen shots from ironchef. The mhawk -> Skype log wasn't a screen shot which is what shoes the discrepancy

Ironchef's log proves the amount of time which passed between actions. They proved that no greater than a minute passed between her first query to mhawk and the 7th line of the GGA channel. It doesn't matter what timezone it's in, because time elapses the same in all timezones.

According to Moo's account, the events happened in this order:

Ironchef query to mhawk->

mhawk Skype chat with Moo->

Moo talking in GGA channel

The Skype log was provided by mhawk himself, and I have not and will not call mhawk's integrity into question. His Skype log says 34 seconds elapsed, so that is the accurate measurement.

[Sileath]

Also don't forget about the 3 lines by Ironchef in the first screenshot (probably more than 3, but it was cut off)

Those 3 lines are the Ironchef query to mhawk, which had to precede the 34 second mhawk Skype conversation with Moo.

[CptGodzilla]

Ironchef's log proves the amount of time which passed between actions. They proved that no greater than a minute passed between her first query to mhawk and the 7th line of the GGA channel. It doesn't matter what timezone it's in, because time elapses the same in all timezones.

According to Moo's account, the events happened in this order:

Ironchef query to mhawk-> They were already in query, takes a couple seconds to type up 3 lines of text

mhawk Skype chat with Moo-> They were already in a conference call with each other, few more seconds to get the chat going with the 30 or so seconds of line

Moo talking in GGA channel -> again, few seconds with a quick chat going

The Skype log was provided by mhawk himself, and I have not and will not call mhawk's integrity into question. His Skype log says 34 seconds elapsed, so that is the accurate measurement.

No matter which way you look at it, it's impossible for any situation to happen in those time restraints, but have you ever thought that it took Mhawk so long to type it up (my pet lion can type 3 lines quicker than 34 seconds, specially that urgent) because he was telling Moo as IronChef was telling him? that's the only possible way for any of the situations to work out in the given time restraints

Edit: Also why would Ironchef act 2 different ways with the information. He is pushing it when talking to mhawk, but when moo says it, he just blew it off like it was nothing

Edited May 26, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[mhawk]

Ironchef's log proves the amount of time which passed between actions. They proved that no greater than a minute passed between her first query to mhawk and the 7th line of the GGA channel. It doesn't matter what timezone it's in, because time elapses the same in all timezones.

According to Moo's account, the events happened in this order:

Ironchef query to mhawk->

mhawk Skype chat with Moo->

Moo talking in GGA channel

The Skype log was provided by mhawk himself, and I have not and will not call mhawk's integrity into question. His Skype log says 34 seconds elapsed, so that is the accurate measurement.

Moo and I were already talking in the skype chat, I didn't release those because it was redundant as I had just told him that ic had been removed.

[ChairmanHal]

I feel like we're breaking down the Zapruder film frame by frame. Funny thing is, Jackie is still a widow at the end no matter what.

Athens is ok with GGA. Painful to read logs, "he said, he said, she said" and all the rest changes none of that.