I hate GGA drama

[Sileath]

I told moo that ironchef was the source, there was little said because we were in a skype call and playing scrabble. The reason it was brought to query was because it was mixed company with several alliances of various positions, I believe some polar and val members can verify this.

If Ironchef was the source, and Moo knew this, then why would Moo be so frantic in telling Ironchef this? From the Moo-IC logs, Moo sounds like he doesn't think Ironchef is aware that a situation may exist.

[WarriorConcept]

w00t! give this man a cookie

Like I said I did not tell Mhawk a thing about Athens and terms till Moo came in telling us we are $%&@d and to get back in the GGA.

You realize by mhawk's and moo's logs, Moo didn't tell you until mhawk told him, right?

[Haflinger]

My conclusion?

Congratulations to the New Pacific Order.

Although this isn't quite how I envisioned this relationship ending, it'll do.

[George the Great]

If Ironchef was the source, and Moo knew this, then why would Moo be so frantic in telling Ironchef this? From the Moo-IC logs, Moo sounds like he doesn't think Ironchef is aware that a situation may exist.

Ruh Roh

Trotsky, you've got some 'splainin' to do!

Looks like a pipe was thrown in a wheel of the reverse "Innocent NPO" bandwagon.

You realize by mhawk's and moo's logs, Moo didn't tell you until mhawk told him, right?

You realize from mhawk's post and Pansy's () verification of it that Moo knew IronChef was the source, right?

Edited May 26, 2009 by George the Great

[Tequila Mockingbird]

Second I'd like to blame this stupid drama for causing me to forget to buy my nukes tonight for use on Archon.

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

This has been in the works for days now, it's great to finally see a good plan come together so successfully.

[TrotskysRevenge]

+

=

Leaving out important facts. Facts like that was IronChef's opinion, which it pretty clearly was.

Also, why did you leave out the rest of the Moo conversation, some context would be nice, or would it be?

So in hindsight, mhawk, Moo and GGA acted rashly. mhawk neglects to inform that this is just IronChef's opinion and back his information up with facts that Athens was going to go to war with them. Moo takes it and runs with it hoping they just got GGA back into the war. GGA goes to back up the theory with facts and finds out they don't hold any water.

Did Moo know that IronChef was the source? Did you purposefully leave that part out, mhawk, because that sure explains why you posted so little of your conversation with him.

If not then this looks like a big, stupid mistake.

I did know that IronChef was the source, but not before I informed GGA. I did not tell them in order to get them back into the war; they are decimated and have no ability to help anyone at this point. I did what any ally would do and let them know of what I considered a credible threat. Since they have an agreement with Athens, they could more easily check with them, especially as we are at war with that alliance. When shaneprice told me the information was wrong, I asked mhawk and was told the source was ironchef.

[TehChron]

If Ironchef was the source, and Moo knew this, then why would Moo be so frantic in telling Ironchef this? From the Moo-IC logs, Moo sounds like he doesn't think Ironchef is aware that a situation may exist.

At what point is it said that Moo knew it was from Ironchef?

At all prior to informing GGA?

Edit: Timestamps dont corroborate what you're saying at all, Sileath.

Edited May 26, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Vol Navy]

The Mistake's was Athens for letting this Albatross get hung around their neck.

GGA was more than happy to promote it as some kind of evil manipulation, people. Please remember who took it as a plea for attention to Athens to begin with.

You seem to have hit on the most likely scenairo, confusion spun into an attempted PR gain while chaos reigns in and around their alliance. Not much better for positive PR right now than being the "victim" of some evil NPO conspiracy.

[WarriorConcept]

Ruh Roh

Trotsky, you've got some 'splainin' to do!

Looks like a pipe was thrown in a wheel of the reverse "Innocent NPO" bandwagon.

You realize from mhawk's post and Pansy's () verification of it that Moo knew IronChef was the source, right?

Moo did not know it was ironchef until after he told GGA, as evidenced by the logs when he said he needed to ask his source about where he heard it from.

Can you people read?

[Londo Mollari]

*ding*

I see it now.

So, Moo reads the terms literally, and freaks to Ironchef that its a terms violation and undo whatever was done. Ironchef takes that back around, and the telephone game affect turns it into "Athens is attacking".

I don't see any malice there, HOWEVER.

Here, here!

EDIT: I seem to recall the coup-ers coming to me asking for support for their new gov without breaking the details of the change. I didn't commit one way or another, so if my alliance was listed as a coup/whatever supporter without my knowledge...

The only problem there woody is that the peace terms didn't say that. They said that GGA gov couldn't go to an alliance at war with the hegemony:

Article IV: In Regards to Alliance Affiliation

The nations of GGA are forbidden from changing their in game Alliance Affiliation to that of an alliance that is currently engaged with the forces of Karma. Any nations that are found to be in violation of this article will be immediately declared upon and not released until ZI. If any government member of GGA changes their Alliance Affiliation to that of an alliance that is currently engaged with the forces of Karma, it shall be seen as an alliance wide surrender term violation and will result in the resumption of hostilities between GGA and the forces of Karma.

So I guess Moo didn't read the terms, just assumed and got GGA all riled up?

As far as the coup stuff - I read logs of SWR knowing that the vote was up and refusing to vote at all. It was a BS situation and, since GGA CAN remove its leaders legally, it was not a COUP, and furthermore I consider what they did justified in both cases. It wasn't some blatantly stupid power play, it was GGA trying to improve itself.

I didn't have to do this. This wasn't as Chron keeps insisting, a blatant ploy for PR or to damage NPO's PR. I saw, and GGA saw, that NPO had stabbed them in the back. NPO says that they didn't, that there was no manipulative intent involved. That may or may not be true, but the fact seems to be that Moo told ironchef about us attacking them first, and without cause. Why he did that, we will probably never know, but can only speculate on the most likely possibilities.

GGA has done a lot wrong. A LOT wrong. But this is a case where I saw them being wronged. I am also their protector, so I am both obligated to help them, and I wanted to help them. Because I too was wronged by NPO, and so have been nearly all of my friends.

Like a lot of things that go on in this game there is a lot of ambiguity. But if you want to get an idea of the truth, look to the NPO's past actions, and look to mine, and even look to GGA's. GGA has been extremely loyal to NPO, they have no reason to turn on them now for no reason. And I am an honorable person. You can't say the same for the NPO's track record. So while people will lie and obfuscate (and some are better at it than others), the truth often comes out in the end, and you can look at people's track records in deciding what happened.

If I have somehow been played, then I have been played. I have at least acted with integrity to try to help someone who it appeared to me had been cruelly wronged. That is why I have done what I have done. Not for PR, not to hurt NPO. But to see justice done in the end. I hope I have acted wisely, and I believe that I have. That is all any of us can ever say in the end.

Time will tell.

[King Srqt]

Ruh Roh

Trotsky, you've got some 'splainin' to do!

Looks like a pipe was thrown in a wheel of the reverse "Innocent NPO" bandwagon.

You realize from mhawk's post and Pansy's () verification of it that Moo knew IronChef was the source, right?

you realize that according to Ironchef logs in the OP NPO and Moo told GGA to seek peace and that is why they did right? So that kind of makes conspiracy theroy #1 where NPO is trying to get GGA back in the war make no sense.

[WarriorConcept]

That may or may not be true, but the fact seems to be that Moo told ironchef about us attacking them first, and without cause. Why he did that, we will probably never know, but can only speculate on the most likely possibilities.

That couldn't have been possible as Moo only told ironchef about it after mhawk told him about it.

I hope you can realize you've been played now, but it really wasn't your fault.

[JoshuaR]

you realize that according to Ironchef logs in the OP NPO and Moo told GGA to seek peace and that is why they did right? So that kind of makes conspiracy theroy #1 where NPO is trying to get GGA back in the war make no sense.

Pretty much. I think many people are confused, or someone's trying to work on PR. This just seems to happen to GGA...

[Il Impero Romano]

You realize going by the timestamps, Moo still told you after mhawk told him?

Edit: Bigwoody I'd agree with you if Moo hadn't already verified that he only talked to ironchef after mhawk told him about it and not at all before.

Same minute, could be either...it comes down to whos word one chooses to believe...

[Londo Mollari]

That couldn't have been possible as Moo only told ironchef about it after mhawk told him about it.

I hope you can realize you've been played now, but it really wasn't your fault.

You'll forgive me, but I don't see how you get that unless you choose to arbitrarily believe Moo over Ironchef. Ironchef has stated that Moo told her first, then she told mhawk, mhawk told Moo, and Moo told GGA.

[Sileath]

I did know that IronChef was the source, but not before I informed GGA. I did not tell them in order to get them back into the war; they are decimated and have no ability to help anyone at this point. I did what any ally would do and let them know of what I considered a credible threat. Since they have an agreement with Athens, they could more easily check with them, especially as we are at war with that alliance. When shaneprice told me the information was wrong, I asked mhawk and was told the source was ironchef.

This seems contradictory to this:

Moo came in and said for us all to get back in gov because Athens was going to pull terms. I told Mhawk this in query. He was in a skyp call with Moo at the time and told Moo what I had just said.

Source of above quote - http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1559259

[bigwoody]

The only problem there woody is that the peace terms didn't say that. They said that GGA gov couldn't go to an alliance at war with the hegemony:

Fair point. I'm not really arguing for a side, just trying to piece things together.

*words*

I think everyone is just confused. I think this drama needs a few days to shake out. Then we will all hate GGA drama even more as more threads come.

[Haflinger]

If I have somehow been played, then I have been played. I have at least acted with integrity to try to help someone who it appeared to me had been cruelly wronged. That is why I have done what I have done. Not for PR, not to hurt NPO. But to see justice done in the end. I hope I have acted wisely, and I believe that I have. That is all any of us can ever say in the end.

I quite agree with this, but I don't think anyone's calling Athens' motivations into question here. It's GGA, NPO and mhawk that everyone are talking about.

[WarriorConcept]

You'll forgive me, but I don't see how you get that unless you choose to arbitrarily believe Moo over Ironchef. Ironchef has stated that Moo told her first, then she told mhawk, mhawk told Moo, and Moo told GGA.

If it's as you say, why would Moo then need to tell GGA?

The fact of the matter is, as verified by mhawk and Moo, unless they're both lying which I find doubtful, Moo only told ironchef after mhawk told him.

[TrotskysRevenge]

You'll forgive me, but I don't see how you get that unless you choose to arbitrarily believe Moo over Ironchef. Ironchef has stated that Moo told her first, then she told mhawk, mhawk told Moo, and Moo told GGA.

That is physically impossible. I could not have told GGA until I had been told by mhawk on Skype, and mhawk could not have told me until ironchef had told him. It only takes a few seconds to translate from Skype to irc.

Edited May 26, 2009 by TrotskysRevenge

[TehChron]

The only problem there woody is that the peace terms didn't say that. They said that GGA gov couldn't go to an alliance at war with the hegemony:

So I guess Moo didn't read the terms, just assumed and got GGA all riled up?

As far as the coup stuff - I read logs of SWR knowing that the vote was up and refusing to vote at all. It was a BS situation and, since GGA CAN remove its leaders legally, it was not a COUP, and furthermore I consider what they did justified in both cases. It wasn't some blatantly stupid power play, it was GGA trying to improve itself.

I didn't have to do this. This wasn't as Chron keeps insisting, a blatant ploy for PR or to damage NPO's PR. I saw, and GGA saw, that NPO had stabbed them in the back. NPO says that they didn't, that there was no manipulative intent involved. That may or may not be true, but the fact seems to be that Moo told ironchef about us attacking them first, and without cause. Why he did that, we will probably never know, but can only speculate on the most likely possibilities.

GGA has done a lot wrong. A LOT wrong. But this is a case where I saw them being wronged. I am also their protector, so I am both obligated to help them, and I wanted to help them. Because I too was wronged by NPO, and so have been nearly all of my friends.

Like a lot of things that go on in this game there is a lot of ambiguity. But if you want to get an idea of the truth, look to the NPO's past actions, and look to mine, and even look to GGA's. GGA has been extremely loyal to NPO, they have no reason to turn on them now for no reason. And I am an honorable person. You can't say the same for the NPO's track record. So while people will lie and obfuscate (and some are better at it than others), the truth often comes out in the end, and you can look at people's track records in deciding what happened.

If I have somehow been played, then I have been played. I have at least acted with integrity to try to help someone who it appeared to me had been cruelly wronged. That is why I have done what I have done. Not for PR, not to hurt NPO. But to see justice done in the end. I hope I have acted wisely, and I believe that I have. That is all any of us can ever say in the end.

Time will tell.

Point 1...The bolded part. Ive been here for awhile, and the reason GGA would ditch the NPO is because the alliance is one of parasites and yes-men. All ambitous folk who cant seem to stand the sight of being forced to go down with the ship they signed on with.

It's been true since P_C's day. And GGA is in no way, shape or form honorable. They never have been. They came up with the idea for the Green Civil War which the rest of Wut went along with literaly...Because we thought it would be funny.

That's it. The GGA does a lot of crap, their membership supports it, and has always tried to stick with whomever it thought was the biggest kid on the block. Its their MO, quite frankly. And that attitude predates their relationship with the NPO.

The NPO did not stab them in the back. At no time, in any of the logs you have posted, has anything appeared to even remotely suggest that they had.

You fail, and you fail hard.

[King Srqt]

You'll forgive me, but I don't see how you get that unless you choose to arbitrarily believe Moo over Ironchef. Ironchef has stated that Moo told her first, then she told mhawk, mhawk told Moo, and Moo told GGA.

let me ask you this Londo, how did Ironchef know exactly what term Moo thought GGA broke even though it wasnt actually a broken term and he never specified what the term was and relay it to mhawk in less than a minute? Because if you go by IC's timestamps and what was said in her logs that is exactly what she would have had to have done.

Someones story does not make sense and it is not NPO's

[agnews]

GGA can fall further down the pit....

Edited May 26, 2009 by agnews

[deth2munkies]

So it's all a misunderstanding. Fine. It doesn't change the fact that the NPO was still playing a large role in their affairs.

[Master Hakai]

I think everyone is just confused. I think this drama needs a few days to shake out. Then we will all hate GGA drama even more as more threads come.

Dude, yeah man.