Karma, who are you?

[Bob Janova]

If Karma had wanted an end to attacks on OV, it was available to them the day after the initial attacks

Except that the NPO rejected the terms and started running to peace mode. You don't get to withdraw from an aggressive war on your terms. The fact is, if it wasn't for the support of the other Hegemony alliances, the NPO would never have felt it was in a position to attempt to bully Ordo Verde in the first place, and so those alliances bear some responsibility for the bullying. An equitable end to the war on Ordo Verde was never available; allowing the NPO to simply withdraw after blitzing them would not be defending OV at all, instead it would be saying that the Hegemony could attack at will and withdraw when it wished.

This case is rather different to previous examples (e.g. GPA, GATO) where even without the support of many allies, the bullies had enough strength to carry out their plans. In this case, if TPF, IRON and others had said to NPO 'If you charge into aggression and get in trouble we won't help you', then the NPO would not have done so because it would obviously lose.

Also, didn't you surrender already? It's hardly 'your side' when you abandoned it so soon.

[Doitzel]

Loaded words. You claim this is what every alliance on our side is doing, and yet if the truth about this war ever gets out, it will become clear that's not what we're doing.

If Karma had wanted an end to attacks on OV, it was available to them the day after the initial attacks, by your very own admission. So do not spin this as an attempt to defend against unwarranted aggression, because if simple defense had been your goal, the solution was there.

He said that is what you are fighting in support of, which is absolutely true.

The fact that NPO offered peace because it realised what a massive political blunder it had made has no bearing on what they had already done. Karma did not want "Peace in our time", they wanted to eliminate a threat that had been looming over all of us and that had finally shown its true colours once more giving them reason to strike it down. NPO had every ability to walk away from that war before it began, they could have dropped it and let the negotiations finalise. Instead they launched an aggressive assault and only after realising that they had united the world against them did they want to rescind that act.

But this is about more than OV. This is about secret surrender terms. This is about EZI and PZI. This is about FAN. This is about GATO. This is about Jarheads. This is about GPA. This is about the Viridicide. This is about every single atrocity that has gone unanswered for for more than two years. This is about the destruction that they have wrought to countless alliances and nations, the communities they have destroyed, and the people they have rid this planet of with their insatiable hunger for more power, their hunger for conquest. The alliance at the centre of all this uses these atrocities as a means of spreading fear throughout the world to keep it firmly in control and as a way to divert the attentions of their members -- to keep them happy, ignorant, and placated. For that reason we could be sure that when NPO struck OV, if a stand was not made or if our unity faltered, the world would fall one by one as this black hole absorbed first those who even considered standing against it and then, ultimately, you. Those who stand beside the NPO are not safe from its covetous gaze: ask FAN, ask NpO. Ask TORN.

This is a fight for survival. If the NPO was not stopped at this turn then there would simply be another war at another time and there could be no guarantee the world would be ready then, or that the situation would not favour NPO. So certain people made the correct decision and they moved to neutralise this threat to the safety and freedom of all who dwell in this world.

[Mogar]

I must say Doitzel, you do have a way with words.

[Haflinger]

Also, didn't you surrender already? It's hardly 'your side' when you abandoned it so soon.

You might want to examine the signatures on our peace document, and the terms by which we left the conflict. It would be inaccurate to say that either Invicta or TOOL in particular abandoned our allies.

Or you could just talk to Crymson and get the facts from your ally.

[Un4Gvn1]

It's your choice to fight in support of aggression and bullying, you can expect a few harsh words from a few people for doing so. But I don't recall seeing anything worse than the usual wartime posting, or anyone claiming Hegemony is one single entity. I think you're projecting your own confused thoughts about Karma there.

Hegemony is more of a bloc than Karma is though, since at its core it has two interconnected real blocs (Continuum and One Vision) and the primary alliances (NPO and IRON) are in both. However, from my observations I must agree that it seems you have no unified chain of command

Don't presume that everyone fights to preserve what you call bullying and I won't presume that everyone fighting for Karma is fighting to make sure the world will be roses and sunshine and puppies frolicking in the fields after the war.

Some rulers fight because they stand with friends.

[freedomfight3r]

I think you'd find Karma's leaders here:

Edited May 4, 2009 by Spock
rickroll ftl

[Un4Gvn1]

I could give you the usual "Your side has been doing it before so you'll to deal with it" argument but this won't help much, will it? People are just fed up with the attitude of some alliances on your side and decided to speak up. Some in harsh terms, some with not so harsh terms. It happens every time. On both sides. I don't see the "put downs and insults" as any worse as the trash talking usual in times of war. I'm sure you'll get over it.

I, for one, use both "Karma" and "Hegemony" to name the sides. There is no way in hell I'm going to start each and everyone single alliance when I'm talking about this war. It would be tedious typing NPO, TPF, OG, MCXA, NATO, Valhalla, IRON, Echelon, GGA, Soldier, Terra Prime, TSI, UF, IRAN, 64Digits, FEAR, UCN, The Legion, Nebula-X, UPN, Invicta, OMFG, Pegasus, Olympus, BAPS, Tempest, TORN, Elysium (2nd), Aurora Borealis, Zenith, SSSW18, Veritas Aequitas, GDA, GRAN, OFLC, NEW, RDD, TOOL, TFD, Wolfpack, Molon Labe, -AiD-, FnKa, NADC, Nod, Avalon and DOOM each time Hegemony is mentionned.

I am impressed with your stating the entire list and will understand when you use "Hegemony" instead.

[bzelger]

Don't presume that everyone fights to preserve what you call bullying and I won't presume that everyone fighting for Karma is fighting to make sure the world will be roses and sunshine and puppies frolicking in the fields after the war.

Some rulers fight because they stand with friends.

Read Doitzel's post. You are fighting in support of it, even if you aren't fighting "for" it.

[Haflinger]

Except that the NPO rejected the terms and started running to peace mode. You don't get to withdraw from an aggressive war on your terms.

TORN did, why should NPO get held to a different standard?

[Portugal]

I think you'd find Karma's leaders here:

Thanks for that. It was very informative, and didn't annoy me at all!

[freedomfight3r]

Thanks for that. It was very informative, and didn't annoy me at all!

You're very much welcomed!

[Un4Gvn1]

I think you'd find Karma's leaders here: I REMOVED THE LINK IN THIS QUOTE.

That was a goofy stunt.

So, you're saying Karma's leaders are very old school?

Edited May 4, 2009 by Peggy_Sue

[SynthFG]

TORN did, why should NPO get held to a different standard?

TORN were stabbed in the back by NPO

TORN there eyes finally opened accepted reasonable terms and were allowed to withdraw.

The terms offered to NPO were far less harsh than they have imposed on others in the the past few years yet they chose to fight

[Doitzel]

TORN did, why should NPO get held to a different standard?

Maybe because TORN doesn't have a pathological history of attacking small alliances and stabbing allies in the back which spans 3 years. You don't complain about different standards when someone who beats up his wife gets put in jail and a 16-time serial killer gets the electric chair, do you?

See, it's like that old "golden rule" your mum told you about: do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

[Alterego]

Read Doitzel's post. You are fighting in support of it, even if you aren't fighting "for" it.

I love the way you think you know why we are fighting more than we do. We (the other side) are not fighting in support of it' this is nothing but propaganda. If you want to know why an alliance is fighting check their DoW. Vox posts hardly offer an unbiased viewpoint.

[Tygaland]

I love the way you think you know why we are fighting more than we do. We (the other side) are not fighting in support of it' this is nothing but propaganda. If you want to know why an alliance is fighting check their DoW. Vox posts hardly offer an unbiased viewpoint.

Learn to read. He said even though the reason you went to war was not to support the bullying, the fact that you are on that side of the war means you are actually fighting in support of those doing the bullying.

[potato]

I love the way you think you know why we are fighting more than we do. We (the other side) are not fighting in support of it' this is nothing but propaganda. If you want to know why an alliance is fighting check their DoW. Vox posts hardly offer an unbiased viewpoint.

You're fighting for your friends. That's all fine and dandy. But your friends are fighting for bullying, aggressions, threats ... You're hence supporting those actions. You can't come in a war and ignore a CB. By siding with them, you're agreeing with them. Saying "You know, my friend, your CB is BS and I'm not going to fight for that kind of crap" takes more courage than blindly following your friends.

[Alterego]

Learn to read. He said even though the reason you went to war was not to support the bullying, the fact that you are on that side of the war means you are actually fighting in support of those doing the bullying.

There are no bullys on the Karma side? No need to answer the question I already know the answer.

[Tygaland]

There are no bullys on the Karma side? No need to answer the question I already know the answer.

lol

So, once the actual point being made is pointed out to you, you throw a tantrum and storm off. Hilarious.

[Ragashingo]

Don't presume that everyone fights to preserve what you call bullying and I won't presume that everyone fighting for Karma is fighting to make sure the world will be roses and sunshine and puppies frolicking in the fields after the war.

Some rulers fight because they stand with friends.

And if you're friends are evil jerks?

[Alterego]

lol

So, once the actual point being made is pointed out to you, you throw a tantrum and storm off. Hilarious.

I didn't storm off. Your point is there is a bully on our side and because we fight on the same side we are supporting bullying. My point is you have bullies too and fighting with them means you support their bullying.

edit: Well If I agreed with you, which I dont.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Alterego

[Haflinger]

And if you're friends are evil jerks?

Evil adj. A term used to describe someone the current poster doesn't like.

[hizzy]

Evil adj. A term used to describe someone the current poster doesn't like.

I'm like 95% sure that's not a real dictionary definition.

[Ragashingo]

Evil adj. A term used to describe someone the current poster doesn't like.

Instead of redefining what I mean you could try answering the question. Just saying.

[Electron Sponge]

Karma is run as a joint venture between the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commission, the Learned Elders of Zion, and Halliburton. I'm pretty sure the Devil has a stake in this as well.