Karma, who are you?

[Tomb]

Which alliances are in Karma and who are the leaders of karma?

I AM SPARTICUS

[Orkules]

Which alliances are in Karma and who are the leaders of karma?

I AM SPARTICUS

I AM SPARTICUS

[shahenshah]

The Greenland Republic is a strong member of the Hegemony. Their long lasting treaties with NPO, IRON, and GGA are well documented and well known, all of them MADPs.

ohwait, GR has no treaties with members of the Hegemony, and is fighting NPO, TPF, and NEW.

So close amirite?

http://www.google.com/search?q=define:hege...amp;rlz=1I7DKUS

[KinKiac]

Hegemony is not a bloc We who you call Hegemony are just a group of alliances not fighting on the karma side of the war. We have no chain of command, no leader and no forum for communication. Hegemony, unless Im mistaken was a propaganda buzz word used by Vox that seems to have caught on with people in the new Karma bloc.

Wow. You've pretty much answered your own question in reverse with that post. Replace Hegemony with Karma and there you go, you have an answer that would, for the most part, suffice save for a few minor details. The only thing wrong would be that someone on the Karma side, I think, created both the names, Karma and Hegemony as part of the political buzz that got people motivated. I am in Nueva Vida, and although I do not consider myself part of Karma, I do not speak for my alliance. It is possible that my alliances official position is that we are part of Karma, but I personally disagree. My alliance did not enter this war as Karma, we entered this war as AZTEC and honored a direct treaty with VE.

The reason I disagree is that some people fighting on the Hegemony side of the war are now using Karma as a blanket label for all the alliances on the side of Karma, thus associating all the alliances with perceived wrongs of single alliances fighting on this side. That is not fair, to any of the alliances in this conflict. For example, many were disappointed with the terms handed to TSI from IS and TSO. I personally, and Im sure my leaders, did not agree with those terms in that war. But in the surrender thread I saw people, yourself included if Im not mistaken, trying to use the terms, which were handed out by TSO and IS, as being indicative of the nature of all the alliances fighting on the Karma side as a whole, and associating the actions of 2 alliances fighting on the Karma side with that of the whole group. This is not true and not fair to those fighting in this war. That would be like the Karma side saying that all the alliances fighting on the Hegemony side are guilty of the crimes of the NPO, and handing out the same harsh terms to all. Again, this is not true, and each alliance fighting on the Hegemony side, when being given surrender terms, should be taken individually and not punished for the crimes of the people they fight with. Unless of course, they are in fact guilty of either those same crimes, or being enablers of such crimes(eg MCXA and IRON). Although I believe as far as the terms go, MCXA got off easy. And, yes I know, most of the MCXA gov who would be responsible for much of which MCXA is guilty of are now in TSO, which is why I do not believe the actions taken by such alliances should be used to paint a picture of all the alliances fighting on the Karma side.

But hey thats just my opinion.

Edited for content.

Edited May 10, 2009 by KinKiac

[Haflinger]

Eh, plenty of people on the Karma side of the war have lumped everyone in on the Hegemony side together as supporting all kinds of things that their alliances don't support.

This is part of the problem with the names of the sides in the war. In reality most of the people fighting are doing so because one or more of their friends are involved somehow; there's only a few ideologues on either side.

[KinKiac]

Eh, plenty of people on the Karma side of the war have lumped everyone in on the Hegemony side together as supporting all kinds of things that their alliances don't support.

This is part of the problem with the names of the sides in the war. In reality most of the people fighting are doing so because one or more of their friends are involved somehow; there's only a few ideologues on either side.

I agree. Both sides may be guilty of painting skewed pictures of the other, however there is definitely some sins to atone for by some of the major players, some of which may get off with being on the winning side this time, however I do not believe that will last. Eventually karma comes back to bite everyone in the butt

[Orkules]

Eh, plenty of people on the Karma side of the war have lumped everyone in on the Hegemony side together as supporting all kinds of things that their alliances don't support.

This is part of the problem with the names of the sides in the war. In reality most of the people fighting are doing so because one or more of their friends are involved somehow; there's only a few ideologues on either side.

Indeed. There are a lot of alliances that were outside the core of the Hegemony that really had no cares about the issue. In truth, our quarrell is with 1V/tC more than anything. They're the alliances that have either enacted the practices we oppose or directly supported it with their military, political power, and funds. These alliances all had all the time and chance they needed to withdraw from this if they didn't like what was going on and didn't. The rest are far more indirectly tied to this and their opinions on this are much harder to judge.

[shahenshah]

Indeed. There are a lot of alliances that were outside the core of the Hegemony that really had no cares about the issue. In truth, our quarrell is with 1V/tC more than anything. They're the alliances that have either enacted the practices we oppose or directly supported it with their military, political power, and funds. These alliances all had all the time and chance they needed to withdraw from this if they didn't like what was going on and didn't. The rest are far more indirectly tied to this and their opinions on this are much harder to judge.

By withdraw you meant provide military support to Karma right, else you're coward coalition and you'd be rolled anyway.

Fact is many of the alliances that did what you accuse of V/tC are part of Karma. For evidence people point to War of Coalition, but then hypocrisy kicks in and people forget how many Karma alliances were full and well involved in those terms and reps, more Karma alliances than 'core hegemony'.

[Grand Emperor Burka]

By withdraw you meant provide military support to Karma right, else you're coward coalition and you'd be rolled anyway.

Fact is many of the alliances that did what you accuse of V/tC are part of Karma. For evidence people point to War of Coalition, but then hypocrisy kicks in and people forget how many Karma alliances were full and well involved in those terms and reps, more Karma alliances than 'core hegemony'.

you know full well the differences between those you call former hegemony members cancelling their treaties with NPO several months/weeks and advance and cancelling all MADP's or MDP's after NPO has gone to war. Most people watching these forums could see the tensions building and IRON council surely knew what was coming.

[Orkules]

By withdraw you meant provide military support to Karma right, else you're coward coalition and you'd be rolled anyway.

Fact is many of the alliances that did what you accuse of V/tC are part of Karma. For evidence people point to War of Coalition, but then hypocrisy kicks in and people forget how many Karma alliances were full and well involved in those terms and reps, more Karma alliances than 'core hegemony'.

No by withdraw I mean withdraw before trouble comes a knocking. You guys, on the other hand, only tried to get out when it became clear that your continued alliance would be dangerous.

And to many the No CB war as a wake up call. Many of them went into that war looking for revenge and fully supporting the Hegemony alliances backing them. Then, when they tried to leave the war and give us decent terms the Hegemony stepped in and forced difficult, in many cases horrific terms. For example, nearly all of the alliances (namely VE who you people keep bringing in relation to this) fighting CnG wished to give us white peace. However, before we could sign the peace NPO stepped in and forced terms.

For many of the now Karma alliances the No CB war's surrender terms were the wake up call that made them sit up and pay attention. TDSM8 had terms that would have forced us to send out more tech than we had before the war began, let alone after. We receive numerous people who fought on the opposite side coming to us and telling us how sorry they were to be a party to what had happened. I know other members of CnG received similar statements and I'm sure others on our side did as well.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Orkules

[Bob Janova]

By withdraw you meant provide military support to Karma right, else you're coward coalition and you'd be rolled anyway.

No-one who stayed out of the war would have been rolled. Karma is a defensive operation at its core (legal arguments about chaining and so on notwithstanding) and would not have attacked an uninvolved alliance.

[shahenshah]

you know full well the differences between those you call former hegemony members cancelling their treaties with NPO several months/weeks and advance and cancelling all MADP's or MDP's after NPO has gone to war. Most people watching these forums could see the tensions building and IRON council surely knew what was coming.

Since you mention council, you do know right choices our council had and the choice they made. Take it as a hint that pixels are temporary, but honor is forever.

Bob, you know it will be most difficult to not answer the call of allegiance. Coming from Gramlins, you understand.

No by withdraw I mean withdraw before trouble comes a knocking. You guys, on the other hand, only tried to get out when it became clear that your continued alliance would be dangerous.

And to many the No CB war as a wake up call. Many of them went into that war looking for revenge and fully supporting the Hegemony alliances backing them. Then, when they tried to leave the war and give us decent terms the Hegemony stepped in and forced difficult, in many cases horrific terms. For example, nearly all of the alliances (namely VE who you people keep bringing in relation to this) fighting CnG wished to give us white peace. However, before we could sign the peace NPO stepped in and forced terms.

For many of the now Karma alliances the No CB war's surrender terms were the wake up call that made them sit up and pay attention. TDSM8 had terms that would have forced us to send out more tech than we had before the war began, let alone after. We receive numerous people who fought on the opposite side coming to us and telling us how sorry they were to be a party to what had happened. I know other members of CnG received similar statements and I'm sure others on our side did as well.

Withdraw before trouble comes knocking, the troubles started knocking my freind around November-December period. Only Gramlins and FOK had the courage to pull out of something they did not deem fit to their ways of life. Nonetheless, nobody withdrew when the said atrocities were being committed, infact, they were even more involved in those crimes by reps and silent support. We waivered our reps from NV and rest of our crimes equal that of the said alliances such as being a partner and honoring our treaties.

If we had tried to get out, we'd also kick NPO out of 1V and Q and there was also a cancelleation time-period to take care of. Did we try to get out, I do not think so, it may look like that for obvious reasons and even if it was the case, it was undone and a right choice made. People fail to realize that NPO aren't the only allies we have in war. Did we manage our protest with NPO correctly, absolutely not, it was a PR disaster...and those insults people threw at us only convinced many that the only reply that would be fitting will be the largest Nuke arsenal in the history of the game...and it only convinced IRONers of the hate on the other side of the fence. Put yourself in our place and see an unpopular MADP ally go /ooc/ Leeroy Jenkins /ooc/ and how awkward it gets for you.

You highlight VE, I accept your point if that was indeed a case and I am sure VE has privately settled the matter with MK. But I would ask you Orkules to see the terms for NpO. However, I see some of those alliances involved in NpO are now taking the path to redeem themselves and undo the acts of the past and I do not then wish to be a sour grape in that regards and would no more like to bring that up.

When all is said and done, The biggest winners would obviously be alliances that are Karma, followed actually by most of 1V/Q. The biggest losers are going to be alliances that jumped ship on the eve of battle in the war you mentioned and current war abandoning their perceived most hardcore allies. Karma or Q has nothing left to prove. Yes, maybe Q has to prove it as a whole capable of offering white peace/lenient terms and I tell you this I will remember alliances that acted with leniency and I will be their voice within IRON if it comes to that and as a whole.

I will be the ambassador of your message. It will be hard pill for me to swallow because I do not frankly believe in sincerity of all the alliances on Karma side and I simply wont like to be involved in anyway with them, however, I know who have earned my respect and respect they shall get.

Edited May 11, 2009 by shahenshah

[Orkules]

That was well put and I thank you for your words. I would likely make a longer and more thought out response to your post but at the moment I do not trust myself to state things accurately. Valhalla's surrender thread infuriated me, likely far out of proportion to what it should have, and I am still trying to get myself somewhat under control. I do not agree with unreasonable terms, but for an alliance like that I believe they deserved more than white peace. But I also believe some of that is my anger talking and not my reason due to the things they did to me personally and TDSM8 as a whole on more than one occasion.

I would like very much to see the members of the 1V and Q make moves of redemption in time. I hope I am here to see it and am not disappointed.

Now I think I'll withdraw from these forums before I say more I'll regret.

[Vhalen]

That was well put and I thank you for your words. I would likely make a longer and more thought out response to your post but at the moment I do not trust myself to state things accurately. Valhalla's surrender thread infuriated me, likely far out of proportion to what it should have, and I am still trying to get myself somewhat under control. I do not agree with unreasonable terms, but for an alliance like that I believe they deserved more than white peace. But I also believe some of that is my anger talking and not my reason due to the things they did to me personally and TDSM8 as a whole on more than one occasion.

I would like very much to see the members of the 1V and Q make moves of redemption in time. I hope I am here to see it and am not disappointed.

Now I think I'll withdraw from these forums before I say more I'll regret.

A show of uncommon wisdom. Who are you people, and what have you done with the real forums?

[Bob Janova]

Bob, you know it will be most difficult to not answer the call of allegiance. Coming from Gramlins, you understand.

Yes – although allegiance to the level of following an ally into a suicide charge in an aggressive war, I'm not sure we would do. Fortunately, none of our allies are volatile enough to do that. While I wish that IRON would have decided to stay out, I understand your wish to enter. I was just saying that had you decided not to, you would not have been attacked.

Nonetheless, nobody withdrew when the said atrocities were being committed, infact, they were even more involved in those crimes by reps and silent support.

Did those alliances fight GPA, or support VietFAN II, or keep people on ZI? (I deliberately exclude the Polar war as I don't think that was a 'crime' per se, apart from the Hyperion/MK front which FOK, Grämlins, TOP and MHA were not a part of.)

[jerdge]

Withdraw before trouble comes knocking, the troubles started knocking my freind around November-December period. Only Gramlins and FOK had the courage to pull out of something they did not deem fit to their ways of life. Nonetheless, nobody withdrew when the said atrocities were being committed, infact, they were even more involved in those crimes by reps and silent support. We waivered our reps from NV and rest of our crimes equal that of the said alliances such as being a partner and honoring our treaties.

I can witness that in the MHA we weren't even sure - collectively - that the war was really coming, and in fact I and others continued to hope that it could be avoided until very recently.

While it's true that tensions were already building in November (and maybe before), the "sides"weren't clear until very recently (March/April). We in the MHA were still discussing what would have happened and where we would have been, and in fact we sided "with Karma" only after having decided to get out of tC, and even then we could have remained uninvolved if The Grämlins didn't fight (although we would have probably assisted Farkistan and Ragnarok anyway).

I might add that very few mentioned the possibility to win or lose and which side was perceived to be "stronger", but we were only worried for our best friends - and that our political positioning could force us to stay out of a war, despite our sentiments.

We discussed our exit from tC at length - that's the reason it could be eventually perceived as a "late" exit - and in fact what speed up our stance on it was actually the slap in the face of the infamous "Q meeting" being held without us (and TOP).

There's no mystery that the MHA had been growing increasingly uncomfortable with some "overtly aggressive" allies in Q, but it took a lot of time and we were actually fine with NPO and IRON.

No matter how time it will need, I personally still hope in a renewed friendship between us three (and others as well, by the way).

[neneko]

For us, it is a war of honour, and of standing by our friends.

Unlike those people in karma that formed a huge bloc and then started a aggressive war against NPO or was karma those guys that entered the war in defense of their friends? I keep forgetting.

The smug from your post just made the grl go up 10 points.

edit: Just realised I was linked to a month old thread. I'm really sorry for gravedigging.

Edited June 10, 2009 by neneko

[Spock]

Gravedig