Karma, who are you?

[Mogar]

Yes the views on almost everything differs greatly within karma. That is the whole point. Karma is not a huge bloc and will not even exist after this war is over. Yes there are probably tons of people within karma that want to see other karma members burn and that's okay too, that's how freedom works. The point of karma is not to change one oppressive superpower to a slightly less oppressive super power. Karma will not exist after the war and everyone will have the same chance to build on their foreign relations as individual alliances.

So the argument that karma would be a bad super power is ridiculous because karma isn't aiming to become a dominating bloc of any kind.

I'm not arguing that Karma will be a bad superpower, I'm arguing that alliances within Karma are trying to set themselves up as the next superpower, which will either 1) enact another coalition against them, or 2) they'll be too heavily allied to the heavy hitters of Karma, and live in peace for a while before someone builds enough firepower against them, or at least tries to.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[neneko]

I'm not arguing that Karma will be a bad superpower, I'm arguing that alliances within Karma are trying to set themselves up as the next superpower, which will either 1) enact another coalition against them, or 2) they'll be too heavily allied to the heavy hitters of Karma, and live in peace for a while before someone builds enough firepower against them, or at least tries to.

...and this is your worst case scenario? Alliances wanting power instead of a huge one already abusing the power it has?

I'm not sure exactly why you're so afraid of this freedom (although I have a hunch) but you're right freedom do work both ways as I said before. Alot of alliances is going to try to become more powerful by better internal structure or foreign relations but this is a good thing not bad. This is freedom of choice and I prefer it alot to having a world police keeping everyone down that's not allied to it.

[shahenshah]

Learn to read. He said even though the reason you went to war was not to support the bullying, the fact that you are on that side of the war means you are actually fighting in support of those doing the bullying.

If not bullies than coward coalition right?

[Mogar]

...and this is your worst case scenario? Alliances wanting power instead of a huge one already abusing the power it has?

I'm not sure exactly why you're so afraid of this freedom (although I have a hunch) but you're right freedom do work both ways as I said before. Alot of alliances is going to try to become more powerful by better internal structure or foreign relations but this is a good thing not bad. This is freedom of choice and I prefer it alot to having a world police keeping everyone down that's not allied to it.

Like I said in my previous example, everyone was told during the UJW Z0MG GOONS WILL MAKE SUCH AN AWFUL SUPERPOWER, DON'T LET THEM WIN! and it worked, well, and that version of GOONS was forced to disband, there will be another superpower rising, and if they're smart enough about it, they can be even worse than NPO and co were, and even worse than GOONS could have been, because they'll have eliminated a lot of the NS that would have killed them before they got to that point, the world police may not be such a good thing, but at least it's something people who've dealt with them before know how to deal with(I'm looking at you LUE/NAAC 2.0), with a new superpower there may not be time to learn how to deal with them before they're already in a post GW3 Pacifica position, and that is what I'm concerned of.

[shahenshah]

Well from what I've gathered, the alternate goal(Read: besides the most obvious HURR LET'S KILL NPO!) is preventing any type of post GW2-Coalition War Era from ever happening again, there will not be another unipolar world for quite sometime, and if the alliances on Karma had their way, ever.

Wait, isnt that unipolar then? One cant have couple blocs allied closely preventing any other blocs from forming and say *Hey we have two blocs here so the world is multi-polar*

Bam, I do have neurons in my head and they happen to function now and then

[neneko]

Like I said in my previous example, everyone was told during the UJW Z0MG GOONS WILL MAKE SUCH AN AWFUL SUPERPOWER, DON'T LET THEM WIN! and it worked, well, and that version of GOONS was forced to disband, there will be another superpower rising, and if they're smart enough about it, they can be even worse than NPO and co were, and even worse than GOONS could have been, because they'll have eliminated a lot of the NS that would have killed them before they got to that point, the world police may not be such a good thing, but at least it's something people who've dealt with them before know how to deal with(I'm looking at you LUE/NAAC 2.0), with a new superpower there may not be time to learn how to deal with them before they're already in a post GW3 Pacifica position, and that is what I'm concerned of.

and yet again, that's how freedom works! I have no doubt that alot alliances will try to rise to power some of them not fit for that position at all. It is up to the rest of digiterra to not allow bullies to take control. Alot of bad things happends with freedom but the good far outweights the bad. What you're saying about how the world police may not be good but it might be even worse without them is how alot of totalitarians or dictatorships have argued for the reason they should stay in power.

I for one is rather free on earth than a slave in paradise (not that living under the boot of npo was a paradise). I value freedom over safety so arguing that it's good to have a oppresive force on digiterra because it keeps us safe doesn't work for me.

[Mogar]

and yet again, that's how freedom works! I have no doubt that alot alliances will try to rise to power some of them not fit for that position at all. It is up to the rest of digiterra to not allow bullies to take control. Alot of bad things happends with freedom but the good far outweights the bad. What you're saying about how the world police may not be good but it might be even worse without them is how alot of totalitarians or dictatorships have argued for the reason they should stay in power.

I for one is rather free on earth than a slave in paradise (not that living under the boot of npo was a paradise). I value freedom over safety so arguing that it's good to have a oppresive force on digiterra because it keeps us safe doesn't work for me.

You were free before this war, just NPO could kick your teeth in if you pissed them off, the only thing that's going to change is the people in power, and they'll still kick your teeth in if you piss them off

Wait, isnt that unipolar then? One cant have couple blocs allied closely preventing any other blocs from forming and say *Hey we have two blocs here so the world is multi-polar*

Bam, I do have neurons in my head and they happen to function now and then

you're correct, but Karma is not treatied together enough, nor do they have enough similar goals to actually attain a unipolar world, there's already factions forming for after the war.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Doitzel]

We're killing one monster, there's a lot more in the closet waiting to take its place, is the best analogy I can think of to summarize my thoughts on this subject, I'm not going to use clear examples since my protector is currently in a war against enemies who have explicitly stated they want to see my protector not exist, and I receive enough threats of ZI on a daily basis to add to it, but you cant honestly sit here and tell me that there isn't another war brewing before this one is even finished, every other war has led to the next one, I doubt this one will be any different.

Of course there's not going to be eternal peace, I'm not an idiot. And yes, times of great tension bring to the surface the underlying ideological lines that divide us. It's entirely possible -- probable, even -- that a war will be fought along those lines. It's the cyclical nature of these great big explodey wars. You're not some great prophet to note that the planet is orbiting the sun and predict that it's going to orbit it again when it's completed the first.

You had no problem casting aspersions on the collective character of dozens of alliances many of then were not part of Q or IV. Your moral outrage is wasted on us, tarring everyone with the same brush, guilty or not is something we could learn a lot about from you.

No, I was keen to say that what you were fighting in support of was a certain type of behaviour exhibited by those you are fighting in defence of. For example, if by your efforts the Hegemony side won and NPO held those that declared on them on permanent ZI for two years then that is what you fought to support whether you're the one doing the perma-ZI'ing or not. Your efforts helped promote that behaviour.

[neneko]

You were free before this war, just NPO could kick your teeth in if you pissed them off, the only thing that's going to change is the people in power, and they'll still kick your teeth in if you piss them off

Way to change argument when I crushed your old one. Nobody is free if they need to have everything go through a higher authority before doing anything or risk being rolled. There have been no signs of any oppresive super bloc forming so what you're doing is just guessing or rather buying into the hedgemony propaganda you get fed from TPF.

[Mogar]

No, I was keen to say that what you were fighting in support of was a certain type of behaviour exhibited by those you are fighting in defence of. For example, if by your efforts the Hegemony side won and NPO held those that declared on them on permanent ZI for two years then that is what you fought to support whether you're the one doing the perma-ZI'ing or not. Your efforts helped promote that behaviour.

Had NPO won an attempted to do that, I'm quite sure we'd have GW1 again, except this time not even Polaris would stand beside Pacifica.

Way to change argument when I crushed your old one. Nobody is free if they need to have everything go through a higher authority before doing anything or risk being rolled. There have been no signs of any oppresive super bloc forming so what you're doing is just guessing or rather buying into the hedgemony propaganda you get fed from TPF.

Bastion 2.0 was in the works, Moo got an itchy trigger finger and killed that idea, I don't get fed anything from TPF, I hear my information from all around, and I didn't change arguments, you stated you were not free before this war, which is incorrect(though if you have any examples of Umbrella being pushed around by Pacifica I'd like to hear them), had you declared war on NPO or anyone on the hegemony side, yes, you'd get your teeth kicked in, just like if I declared on Umbrella, I'd expect to have mine in my stomach.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Doitzel]

Had NPO won an attempted to do that, I'm quite sure we'd have GW1 again, except this time not even Polaris would stand beside Pacifica.

Actually I'm pretty sure most of their goonies would've been right there egging them on, yelling about casualties and telling them to come out of peace mode and fight. Fortunately we'll never know.

[VIdiot the Great]

You were free before this war, just NPO could kick your teeth in if you pissed them off,

And it appears that from the record that 'pissing NPO off' could cover a myriad of behaviors, as well as some behaviors that they engaged in themselves which were not ok for others. In short, you are correct, the record bears out that you were free unless someone said you weren't. Which isn't really free at all.

the only thing that's going to change is the people in power,

This may well be true.

and they'll still kick your teeth in if you piss them off

This is contention, not fact. We won't know if this is true unless/until the above prerequisites are in place, i.e. a new power is established AND they kick in people's teeth for pissing them off. Meaning, there is the potential you are right, and it is not a known fact.

you're correct, but Karma is not treatied together enough, nor do they have enough similar goals to actually attain a unipolar world, there's already factions forming for after the war.

This contradicts your prior assertions. If there are already coalitions forming then it won't be possible for a new unipolar hegemony to develop and kick in people's teeth unchecked.

So which is it?

Regards,

VI

[Mogar]

And it appears that from the record that 'pissing NPO off' could cover a myriad of behaviors, as well as some behaviors that they engaged in themselves which were not ok for others. In short, you are correct, the record bears out that you were free unless someone said you weren't. Which isn't really free at all.

That's how this planet will always be, you're only free until someone decides they don't want you to be anymore, and if they have the NS to back it up, they're going to be right.

This may well be true.

This is contention, not fact. We won't know if this is true unless/until the above prerequisites are in place, i.e. a new power is established AND they kick in people's teeth for pissing them off. Meaning, there is the potential you are right, and it is not a known fact.

I believe most of the CBs that NPO uses for war have been used by numerous alliances on the Karma side, these CBs will not stop being used, spying is the most common example that comes to mind

This contradicts your prior assertions. If there are already coalitions forming then it won't be possible for a new unipolar hegemony to develop and kick in people's teeth unchecked.

Coalitions, plural, and after a few skirmishes it'll be Coalition, singular, just like every other time

So which is it?

Technically, both.

Regards,

VI

[shahenshah]

You were free before this war, just NPO could kick your teeth in if you pissed them off, the only thing that's going to change is the people in power, and they'll still kick your teeth in if you piss them off

you're correct, but Karma is not treatied together enough, nor do they have enough similar goals to actually attain a unipolar world, there's already factions forming for after the war.

I guess then it is in self-interest of the Hegemony to be beat down so they aren't united by a common threat.

[Mogar]

I guess then it is in self-interest of the Hegemony to be beat down so they aren't united by a common threat.

Personally I'd like it if everyone canceled every single treaty they had and people simply defended people they liked, rather than those they're allied to.

[shahenshah]

Personally I'd like it if everyone canceled every single treaty they had and people simply defended people they liked, rather than those they're allied to.

Yes, but that is very unrealistic scenario. Things will play out exactly how they played out this time and the time before this. Characters, scores and the storyline changes, basics remain the same.

[Orkules]

I'm going to note here that noWedge made that call, and the Karma coalition has waged war against nearly every single person that I know who was responsible for getting rid of him except for Electron Sponge.

And yet, he had enough support from with his allies that even those that spoke up against his treatment of TDSM8 at the time were forced to cut deals with him just to get us out of that one. Namely, the inspection of our forums and my perma-ZI. As for removing him, they let him run amok with his power far longer than they should have. He could have been stopped at the first sign of trouble, or the second or the third. But he wasn't. He might have been given a few wagging fingers, maybe a few sternly worded letters that blatantly meant nothing but for way too long he was left to his own devices.

[Mogar]

Yes, but that is very unrealistic scenario. Things will play out exactly how they played out this time and the time before this. Characters, scores and the storyline changes, basics remain the same.

Charactors wont change very much, the rest I agree with you on.

And yet, he had enough support from with his allies that even those that spoke up against his treatment of TDSM8 at the time were forced to cut deals with him just to get us out of that one. Namely, the inspection of our forums and my perma-ZI. As for removing him, they let him run amok with his power far longer than they should have. He could have been stopped at the first sign of trouble, or the second or the third. But he wasn't. He might have been given a few wagging fingers, maybe a few sternly worded letters that blatantly meant nothing but for way too long he was left to his own devices.

It happens when you have one person in charge, which is why most alliances stay away from that model, the person in charge needs to be someone you can trust.

[Orkules]

I'm not arguing that Karma will be a bad superpower, I'm arguing that alliances within Karma are trying to set themselves up as the next superpower, which will either 1) enact another coalition against them, or 2) they'll be too heavily allied to the heavy hitters of Karma, and live in peace for a while before someone builds enough firepower against them, or at least tries to.

We're not though. Or if we were we're doomed to fail. We simply lack the cohesion, friendship, and trust (though yes I know you can claim Continuum had the same problems but not nearly as bad as us) to stay together once the common enemy is defeated. Do some of our members want to form some sort of power bloc and rule the world through bullying? I can almost guarantee it. Are there enough of them or are they united enough to pull off that stunt? Absolutely not. Yes we could potentially rule this game like NPO did if we managed to pull together and be friends and allies. But honestly, that'll never happen. A lot of us dislike each other, plenty of us HATE each other. Most of us distrust each other. We simply can't stay together like that. At best it's a powder keg waiting to explode.

And you know what? Once this war is over, I cannot wait to see the fireworks.

[Sal Paradise]

Had NPO won an attempted to do that, I'm quite sure we'd have GW1 again, except this time not even Polaris would stand beside Pacifica.

A common characteristic of hegemony apologists is to totally ignore all evidence and post whatever makes them feel better. Here, ladies and gentleman, is an example of just that. Note how the prolific first poster Mogar repackages an actual historical theme as a hypothetical situation, i.e. the NPO indefinitely oppressing a defeated enemy. Because what has consistently happened in reality does not serve his point, Mogar discards all historical precedent and declares that he is "quite sure" the exact opposite of what has happened will happen if the situation were repeated. A sign of either dementia, deceit or denial.

[Mogar]

We're not though. Or if we were we're doomed to fail. We simply lack the cohesion, friendship, and trust (though yes I know you can claim Continuum had the same problems but not nearly as bad as us) to stay together once the common enemy is defeated. Do some of our members want to form some sort of power bloc and rule the world through bullying? I can almost guarantee it. Are there enough of them or are they united enough to pull off that stunt? Absolutely not. Yes we could potentially rule this game like NPO did if we managed to pull together and be friends and allies. But honestly, that'll never happen. A lot of us dislike each other, plenty of us HATE each other. Most of us distrust each other. We simply can't stay together like that. At best it's a powder keg waiting to explode.

And you know what? Once this war is over, I cannot wait to see the fireworks.

Again, not saying Karma will be a bloc, but alliances will bind together into factions and the factions will more than likely fight each other while Pacifica is licking her wounds, should one of these factions completely eliminate the others as a threat(which always happens)then they will be in line to be the next superpower.

A common characteristic of hegemony apologists is to totally ignore all evidence and post whatever makes them feel better. Here, ladies and gentleman, is an example of just that. Note how the prolific first poster Mogar repackages an actual historical theme as a hypothetical situation, i.e. the NPO indefinitely oppressing a defeated enemy. Because what has consistently happened in reality does not serve his point, Mogar discards all historical precedent and declares that he is "quite sure" the exact opposite of what has happened will happen if the situation were repeated. A sign of either dementia, deceit or denial.

I know my own allies well enough to know that we wouldn't stand for it, and I know leadership elements in the rest of the hegemony alliances well enough to know they wouldn't stand for it either, Pacifica could try it, but they'd never succeed, keeping down one alliance is alot different than keeping down dozens, and a rather verbose post to say what you meant.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Orkules]

you stated you were not free before this war, which is incorrect(though if you have any examples of Umbrella being pushed around by Pacifica I'd like to hear them), had you declared war on NPO or anyone on the hegemony side, yes, you'd get your teeth kicked in, just like if I declared on Umbrella, I'd expect to have mine in my stomach.

Umbrella might not have been held down, I don't know. But I can sure as hell make that claim. Look at my list of former alliances and think about how much freedom has been lost and how much pain suffered because of NPO.

ICP, ONOS, EoTS, TDSM8, MK.

How many are still alive? How many were crushed by the NPO? How many were oppressed or forced into diplomatic isolation?

They have oppressed many of us. They have crushed or tried to drive out many of us. Even if our current alliance isn't in that position now, they did it to us before. We're not going to let them do it again.

[neneko]

Again, not saying Karma will be a bloc, but alliances will bind together into factions and the factions will more than likely fight each other while Pacifica is licking her wounds, should one of these factions completely eliminate the others as a threat(which always happens)then they will be in line to be the next superpower.

So what you're basing all this on is that this 'always' happends. Do I need to point out yet again that NPO have been the dominating power and source of the bi-polar mentality on digiterra the last few years? or are you saying that this 'always' happened in the brief period before NPO became the dominating power many years ago?

[neneko]

Bastion 2.0 was in the works, Moo got an itchy trigger finger and killed that idea, I don't get fed anything from TPF, I hear my information from all around, and I didn't change arguments, you stated you were not free before this war, which is incorrect(though if you have any examples of Umbrella being pushed around by Pacifica I'd like to hear them), had you declared war on NPO or anyone on the hegemony side, yes, you'd get your teeth kicked in, just like if I declared on Umbrella, I'd expect to have mine in my stomach.

Are you actually naive enough to think that everyone that wasn't crushed by npo didn't have to obey their laws? The lack of freedom was always there even for those npo never touched.

Now I'd like to mention that I was in CIN and MK during their last wars but even if I wasn't I'd feel exactly the same.

[Mogar]

Umbrella might not have been held down, I don't know. But I can sure as hell make that claim. Look at my list of former alliances and think about how much freedom has been lost and how much pain suffered because of NPO.

ICP, ONOS, EoTS, TDSM8, MK.

How many are still alive? How many were crushed by the NPO? How many were oppressed or forced into diplomatic isolation?

They have oppressed many of us. They have crushed or tried to drive out many of us. Even if our current alliance isn't in that position now, they did it to us before. We're not going to let them do it again.

So did GOONS, NpO, and a dozen other alliances I can list, people in power abuse it, it's always happened in everything, everywhere, for the entire history of our species, it's a human trait, you'll kill one monster and create a dozen more, who you think will be your ally and will stab you in the back later.

So what you're basing all this on is that this 'always' happends. Do I need to point out yet again that NPO have been the dominating power and source of the bi-polar mentality on digiterra the last few years? or are you saying that this 'always' happened in the brief period before NPO became the dominating power many years ago?

NPO has not been the dominating power in this game since the UJW, they had a run at being the superpower from GW2 til then, and then everyone realized NPO doesn't call all the shots, and later with the War of the Coalition, which Pacifica did not want, it was shown the rest of the world has the power, not Pacifica.

Are you actually naive enough to think that everyone that wasn't crushed by npo didn't have to obey their laws? The lack of freedom was always there even for those npo never touched.

Now I'd like to mention that I was in CIN and MK during their last wars but even if I wasn't I'd feel exactly the same.

I've fought against Pacifica in all the Great Wars, and purposefully allied my alliance with the UJP to fight against Pacifica once more, the only time I have ever lived under Pacifica's laws was when I was actually in Pacifica.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar