Karma, who are you?

[Orkules]

Again, not saying Karma will be a bloc, but alliances will bind together into factions and the factions will more than likely fight each other while Pacifica is licking her wounds, should one of these factions completely eliminate the others as a threat(which always happens)then they will be in line to be the next superpower.

I know my own allies well enough to know that we wouldn't stand for it, and I know leadership elements in the rest of the hegemony alliances well enough to know they wouldn't stand for it either, Pacifica could try it, but they'd never succeed, keeping down one alliance is alot different than keeping down dozens, and a rather verbose post to say what you meant.

And what I'm saying is that none of the groupings is near large enough or cohesive enough to dominate. Even if they win a spat, there's nobody large enough to dominate the planet. Even if CnG and Superfriends + Sparta formed a side and managed to beat Citadel, we couldn't dominate the planet. We're simply not large enough and beating Citadel would be brutal. Odds are that would actually pave the way for the Hegemony's return to power if it led to any sort of dominant bloc. MAYBE months and months in the future you'll see a side form that can dominate but who can predict that far ahead? And if we do see it, it will be after months of conflict, tension, and open political maneuvering. In other words, fun.

[AirMe]

And yet, he had enough support from with his allies that even those that spoke up against his treatment of TDSM8 at the time were forced to cut deals with him just to get us out of that one. Namely, the inspection of our forums and my perma-ZI. As for removing him, they let him run amok with his power far longer than they should have. He could have been stopped at the first sign of trouble, or the second or the third. But he wasn't. He might have been given a few wagging fingers, maybe a few sternly worded letters that blatantly meant nothing but for way too long he was left to his own devices.

Agreed. If he did not have powerful friends standing by letting him run amok, the situation never would have occurred in the first place. Someone who was allied to him AS he was doing it should have stepped up and slapped him across the face. Not remove him MONTHS down the road.

[Orkules]

So did GOONS, NpO, and a dozen other alliances I can list, people in power abuse it, it's always happened in everything, everywhere, for the entire history of our species, it's a human trait, you'll kill one monster and create a dozen more, who you think will be your ally and will stab you in the back later.

Of course. What we're hoping is that after this nobody will be in the position to have enough power to abuse it so extremely has Hegemony has.

NPO has not been the dominating power in this game since the UJW, they had a run at being the superpower from GW2 til then, and then everyone realized NPO doesn't call all the shots, and later with the War of the Coalition, which Pacifica did not want, it was shown the rest of the world has the power, not Pacifica.

Pacifica may not control the planet entirely, but they certainly are the figurehead at the very least and certainly seem to be the one guiding the rudder. I won't claim that that they control everything their allies do or that their allies always listen to NPO's advice. But NPO certainly is more in control than any one alliance or group of alliances around.

[Mogar]

And what I'm saying is that none of the groupings is near large enough or cohesive enough to dominate. Even if they win a spat, there's nobody large enough to dominate the planet. Even if CnG and Superfriends + Sparta formed a side and managed to beat Citadel, we couldn't dominate the planet. We're simply not large enough and beating Citadel would be brutal. Odds are that would actually pave the way for the Hegemony's return to power if it led to any sort of dominant bloc. MAYBE months and months in the future you'll see a side form that can dominate but who can predict that far ahead? And if we do see it, it will be after months of conflict, tension, and open political maneuvering. In other words, fun.

I've been having plenty of fun for the past 3 months watching this one unfold, and I was thinking more along the lines of a few essentially 1v1 alliance wars asserting for dominance over this new pack you've formed, you wont be able to get them all working together, but you can get about half of them working together and that's all you'll need to shut down any resistance, you are correct that Pacifica will look to use it as a return to power, but depending on how the wars to get the proper powers together, they may not be in time.

Of course. What we're hoping is that after this nobody will be in the position to have enough power to abuse it so extremely has Hegemony has.

they will, perhaps not as quickly as NPO dived into it, but they'll test the limits of their new found power, everyone always seems to have to.

Pacifica may not control the planet entirely, but they certainly are the figurehead at the very least and certainly seem to be the one guiding the rudder. I won't claim that that they control everything their allies do or that their allies always listen to NPO's advice. But NPO certainly is more in control than any one alliance or group of alliances around.

I agree they've been one of the most influential alliances in the history of this game, and I can think of a few alliances they basically control myself, but don't believe that everyone on the hegemony side is a puppet, all of them besides 1 or 2 alliances have their own minds and are allies with Pacifica for more than just power, I doubt many of them will remain allies with Pacifica after this war is over due to their betrayal of their allies by forcing a war none of their allies really wanted.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Orkules]

I've been having plenty of fun for the past 3 months watching this one unfold, and I was thinking more along the lines of a few essentially 1v1 alliance wars asserting for dominance over this new pack you've formed, you wont be able to get them all working together, but you can get about half of them working together and that's all you'll need to shut down any resistance, you are correct that Pacifica will look to use it as a return to power, but depending on how the wars to get the proper powers together, they may not be in time.

What I'm doubting is that we could even get that many. And like I said, even if CnG and Superfriends + Sparta all allied I don't believe they could dominate this game (even forgetting that nobody in CnG and I think nobody in Superfriends wants to do that). They simply lack the numbers and firepower to do it against Citadel and the former Hegemony (even if it breaks up I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the major players stick together). The truth is, most of the factions lack the raw numbers and firepower to hold out. Now this can and will change. Perhaps Citadel or Superfriends or CnG and whichever bloc's assorted allies will grow to the point where they can dominate. I expect it will happen. But it will be a long way away from over night.

I agree they've been one of the most influential alliances in the history of this game, and I can think of a few alliances they basically control myself, but don't believe that everyone on the hegemony side is a puppet, all of them besides 1 or 2 alliances have their own minds and are allies with Pacifica for more than just power, I doubt many of them will remain allies with Pacifica after this war is over due to their betrayal of their allies by forcing a war none of their allies really wanted.

To your comment in the quote, of course I expect they will and I think I even said it. However, the hope once again is that they won't be big enough to get away with it. This may not play out and if so I'll be greatly disappointed.

I expect very few will stick with NPO too. I also expect NPO is fine with that given how their allies damn near all tried to flee this war after it was declared, a far greater betrayal than NPO unleashed on them (which hilariously enough, all of them publicly supported until it blew up in their face).

Edited May 4, 2009 by Orkules

[Sal Paradise]

I know my own allies well enough to know that we wouldn't stand for it, and I know leadership elements in the rest of the hegemony alliances well enough to know they wouldn't stand for it either, Pacifica could try it, but they'd never succeed, keeping down one alliance is alot different than keeping down dozens,

It certainly is, but it is no different from what the hegemony has been doing for the past year. Two things we know about your allies that you've ignored: (1) they are willing to oppress the lot of us for years and pretend they're tough because of it (read: bullies), (2) they are cowards (read: bullies).

and a rather verbose post to say what you meant.

Some people write a lot in order to be clear and get a point across. Others spam every channel they're in with auto-messages.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[Mogar]

What I'm doubting is that we could even get that many. And like I said, even if CnG and Superfriends + Sparta all allied I don't believe they could dominate this game (even forgetting that nobody in CnG and I think nobody in Superfriends wants to do that). They simply lack the numbers and firepower to do it against Citadel and the former Hegemony (even if it breaks up I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the major players stick together). The truth is, most of the factions lack the raw numbers and firepower to hold out. Now this can and will change. Perhaps Citadel or Superfriends or CnG and whichever bloc's assorted allies will grow to the point where they can dominate. I expect it will happen. But it will be a long way away from over night.

Citadel as it is may not exist for very much longer, you are correct in your idea that the bloc will grow, it wont be as dominating of a force as Q was, it'd be very difficult to replicate that amount of firepower, but it will be a very dominant bloc in due time, and of course it wont happen overnight, I've been the leader of my nation for over 3 years now, there's a reason it's so addictive

To your comment in the quote, of course I expect they will and I think I even said it. However, the hope once again is that they won't be big enough to get away with it. This may not play out and if so I'll be greatly disappointed.

I expect very few will stick with NPO too. I also expect NPO is fine with that given how their allies damn near all tried to flee this war after it was declared, a far greater betrayal than NPO unleashed on them (which hilariously enough, all of them publicly supported until it blew up in their face).

they didn't support NPO attacking during discussions, I can tell you that much, they originally were going to leave Pacifica out to hang, and If I were in government of one of those alliances, I would have.

It certainly is, but it is no different from what the hegemony has been doing for the past year. Two things we know about your allies that you've ignored: (1) they are willing to oppress the lot of us for years and pretend they're tough because of it (read: bullies), (2) they are cowards (read: bullies).

Some people write a lot in order to be clear and get a point across. Others spam every channel they're in with auto-messages.

So is everyone else when they're in power, it helps keep you in power, my own allies are not cowards, others on the hegemony side may be but that's irrelevant to me, I didst fight for the hegemony, I fought to defend my ally. I provide a news service, I happen to get more favorable reviews than negative, so I continue to do it, now that the war actually happened, It'll be cut down much more for the most part, and really, you can just come right out and say I'm an attention whore, I admit it.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Orkules]

they didn't support NPO attacking during discussions, I can tell you that much, they originally were going to leave Pacifica out to hang, and If I were in government of one of those alliances, I would have.

And you saw how we reacted when they tried it. It would have been political suicide for you to do so, none of Karma would have signed with your alliance after that. We may not like that they've tied themselves to Pacifica and are fighting alongside them now, but that's not because they finally honored their treaties. We don't like it because they didn't try to break away until their ties blew up in their faces.

[Mogar]

And you saw how we reacted when they tried it. It would have been political suicide for you to do so, none of Karma would have signed with your alliance after that. We may not like that they've tied themselves to Pacifica and are fighting alongside them now, but that's not because they finally honored their treaties. We don't like it because they didn't try to break away until their ties blew up in their faces.

you're friends with Sparta who essentially sat and waited for Karma to form before breaking away from the Hegemony, and if one of vanguards allies had done what Pacifica did, I'd expect your membership to be screaming for cancellations as well.

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

Dear viewers:

If you're looking to end the curbstomp, consult the alliances attacking you individually. There are no Karma leaders.

If you're not looking to end the curbstomp, consult the Karma leaders.

[Heft]

I'm going to note here that noWedge made that call, and the Karma coalition has waged war against nearly every single person that I know who was responsible for getting rid of him except for Electron Sponge.

As I remember, Sponge wasn't even very active when noWedge was finally removed, and he certainly wasn't involved in that process. He was removed through what amounted to an internal coup with the backing of Valhalla's closest allies at the time (which, rather obviously, didn't include Polar). Other than that you are mostly correct, though it's pretty incidental to anything.

[Orkules]

you're friends with Sparta who essentially sat and waited for Karma to form before breaking away from the Hegemony, and if one of vanguards allies had done what Pacifica did, I'd expect your membership to be screaming for cancellations as well.

I can understand their hesitation. Considering how NPO has acted to those who attempted to break away before, I might have been hesitant to leave until I was sure people would be ready to help me not get killed.

If one of my allies did what Pacifica did yes we would. But if they were attacked before we could cancel or before the cancellation period was up then we'd defend them and cancel later. Pacifica's allies kept their treaties until the night everyone hit Pacifica. They cancelled publicly AFTER all those alliances hit NPO. They waited until it was certain that the world had well and truly risen against them. At that point the only way to get out is through dishonor and back stabbing and cowardice. They had a choice between that and taking a beating but keeping their honor. They choose the first and when we called them on it tried to go back and take the second. Well, nobody's going to forget what their first choice was.

[Mogar]

I can understand their hesitation. Considering how NPO has acted to those who attempted to break away before, I might have been hesitant to leave until I was sure people would be ready to help me not get killed.

If one of my allies did what Pacifica did yes we would. But if they were attacked before we could cancel or before the cancellation period was up then we'd defend them and cancel later. Pacifica's allies kept their treaties until the night everyone hit Pacifica. They cancelled publicly AFTER all those alliances hit NPO. They waited until it was certain that the world had well and truly risen against them. At that point the only way to get out is through dishonor and back stabbing and cowardice. They had a choice between that and taking a beating but keeping their honor. They choose the first and when we called them on it tried to go back and take the second. Well, nobody's going to forget what their first choice was.

They actually had wanted to announce sooner, they were delayed by numerous government members missing, or simply not being able to get to a method of communication(ooc: computer) I recall a few heated discussions about NPO's actions with quite a few members of Hegemony government members, most of them wanted to get away from NPO the second they declared on OV during discussions, since nobody was told NPO was declaring, even though each member who canceled had the 72 hour clause from Q that NPO HAD to tell them before declaring, but neglected to follow.

edit: I basically had a phone call that went like this

them: they're still in peace talks with OV

me: so no war?

them: no

them: wait

them: $%&@ *procceds to read me a summary of moo's DoW thread*

me: hahaha awesome, way to go moo

them: god i hate him

and my girlfriend wondered why I went to bed loling that night, and yes, I have phone calls about CN sometimes, sue me.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Orkules]

They actually had wanted to announce sooner, they were delayed by numerous government members missing, or simply not being able to get to a method of communication(ooc: computer) I recall a few heated discussions about NPO's actions with quite a few members of Hegemony government members, most of them wanted to get away from NPO the second they declared on OV during discussions, since nobody was told NPO was declaring, even though each member who canceled had the 72 hour clause from Q that NPO HAD to tell them before declaring, but neglected to follow.

The only problem is, at that point it was too late. Even if they canceled that night, the cancellation clause wouldn't have been up before we declared thus requiring their declaration in defense of the NPO. You quite simply waited until the moment it became clear that the world had decided to play like it's got a pair and then tried to run. Well at that point it's too late.

[Mogar]

The only problem is, at that point it was too late. Even if they canceled that night, the cancellation clause wouldn't have been up before we declared thus requiring their declaration in defense of the NPO. You quite simply waited until the moment it became clear that the world had decided to play like it's got a pair and then tried to run. Well at that point it's too late.

It was more along the lines we had all been led to believe peace might actually happen in our time, and then NPO screwed us over in that regard, I recall being online for 3 nights in a row before my vacation waiting for war to happen because of those damn peace discussions, I knew something was up though simply because it took 4 freaking nights to solve a simple issue, and honestly I think Moo is going to regret pushing forward with this war for the rest of his time in the cyberverse, I know I would. and on thhe subject of the alliances honoring their treaties, it's probably because they didn't want the harsh surrender terms they're going to get, the Q remnants are all going to get some sizable reps, besides IRON whom Karma seems to want to sway over to their side.

edit: and this is a bit off topic, but this is probably one of the most enjoyable discussions/debates I've had on these forums for quite some time, thank you for actually posting intelligently and not hurling insults because I don't completely agree with you.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Mogar

[Orkules]

It was more along the lines we had all been led to believe peace might actually happen in our time, and then NPO screwed us over in that regard, I recall being online for 3 nights in a row before my vacation waiting for war to happen because of those damn peace discussions, I knew something was up though simply because it took 4 freaking nights to solve a simple issue, and honestly I think Moo is going to regret pushing forward with this war for the rest of his time in the cyberverse, I know I would. and on thhe subject of the alliances honoring their treaties, it's probably because they didn't want the harsh surrender terms they're going to get, the Q remnants are all going to get some sizable reps, besides IRON whom Karma seems to want to sway over to their side.

Who in Karma wants that? I'd honestly rather have NPO on my side. At least they didn't try to break a treaty and run.

There may be reps, I don't know I'm not involved. I can guarantee you that these terms will not be nearly as bad as anything NPO has let off. If I am wrong and my alliance or any member of CnG signs them I will depart for somebody who didn't.

And yes NPO did screw you, but honestly you were screwed already. The choice you and NPO had were to wait as more and more alliances left your banner and our side solidified further or go in now and hope to hit us while we're disorganized and scatter us. They went with option two, the smart option. Unfortunately it was way too late for that. As allies, you were screwed when you didn't leave as soon as this whole thing started. At that point it was a matter of falling beside NPO with honor or falling afterwards on your own without. Amazingly, Hegemony found the third option, falling at NPO's side without honor (Note: this is not a blanket statement towards all of Hegemony, merely those that tried to cancel and run. As far as I know IRAN didn't pull, nor did any of the OPP or a number of others. However, plenty of the big boys tried, including your protectors).

[Orkules]

edit: and this is a bit off topic, but this is probably one of the most enjoyable discussions/debates I've had on these forums for quite some time, thank you for actually posting intelligently and not hurling insults because I don't completely agree with you.

Thank you as well, I'm enjoying this discussion myself. Truth by told, I can understand your position. I can see why you and your allies hold it. I just find myself disagreeing with it. Sadly, many people seem to equate somebody having a different opinion as that person being wrong.

[Haflinger]

And yet, he had enough support from with his allies that even those that spoke up against his treatment of TDSM8 at the time were forced to cut deals with him just to get us out of that one. Namely, the inspection of our forums and my perma-ZI. As for removing him, they let him run amok with his power far longer than they should have. He could have been stopped at the first sign of trouble, or the second or the third. But he wasn't. He might have been given a few wagging fingers, maybe a few sternly worded letters that blatantly meant nothing but for way too long he was left to his own devices.

Quite true.

Not by me though. Heh. Trust me, if you guys had really wanted to do something about him back then, and gone looking on both sides of the fence for help, you'd have found some pretty loyal friends, most of whom your side has fought in this war, like me, mhawk, and Anu.

noWedge got away with his continued stunt driving thanks in large part to the unwillingness of people to take firm stands and say "No more of that." When people did put their feet down around him, either they got obliterated (CoAN) or they got results. The ones who got results were typically those who put away the ancient political divides and said "Who's gonna help us?"

Which is what BAPS did, only to be branded as sellouts. It's a sad commentary on the current situation that it looks like the whole of Planet Bob is still fighting GW1. Or thinks they are.

[Haflinger]

As I remember, Sponge wasn't even very active when noWedge was finally removed, and he certainly wasn't involved in that process. He was removed through what amounted to an internal coup with the backing of Valhalla's closest allies at the time (which, rather obviously, didn't include Polar). Other than that you are mostly correct, though it's pretty incidental to anything.

Well, that's how it all ended. Sponge did take actions which led towards to the removal of Wedgie, though, and despite some of the other things Sponge has done I'm still grateful to him for that.

[Orkules]

Quite true.

Not by me though. Heh. Trust me, if you guys had really wanted to do something about him back then, and gone looking on both sides of the fence for help, you'd have found some pretty loyal friends, most of whom your side has fought in this war, like me, mhawk, and Anu.

noWedge got away with his continued stunt driving thanks in large part to the unwillingness of people to take firm stands and say "No more of that." When people did put their feet down around him, either they got obliterated (CoAN) or they got results. The ones who got results were typically those who put away the ancient political divides and said "Who's gonna help us?"

Which is what BAPS did, only to be branded as sellouts. It's a sad commentary on the current situation that it looks like the whole of Planet Bob is still fighting GW1. Or thinks they are.

We took a stand against him and Slayer helped us. NoWedge put us on Perma-ZI without being at war with us and when we had merely honored our treaty. Despite this, we still and the fact that he was enactng a great injustice against us and apparently his allies didn't like it, we were unable to get it removed without massive concessions. Slayer, his ally and someone highly thought of by leaders at the time, couldn't even get us off without those concessions.

[AirMe]

Which is what BAPS did, only to be branded as sellouts. It's a sad commentary on the current situation that it looks like the whole of Planet Bob is still fighting GW1. Or thinks they are.

You do realize BAPS former allies stepped up to help them rebuild after the war and they were basically threatened with war again if they accepted our aid? I know, I had the conversation with 2 different leaders. So it isn't exactly like they had a choice, if they wanted to survive they had to switch sides, but it was hardly by choice.

[Sal Paradise]

So is everyone else when they're in power,

Here you go with rambling on without evidence again. See how beautifully you keep proving my point? There won't be any evidence, by the way, because no one else has ever been in power. And yet you hegemony apologists still insist on trying to sound like you have any idea what you're talking about.

my own allies are not cowards,

Many hegemony alliances managed to keep their cowardice relatively quiet and later pretended that joining the war was their plan all along. Your allies, however, (TPF that is) in a hilarious display laid their drama out for all to see. If we can be sure of the cowardice of any alliance, it is TPF. We were then later treated with the Tattler's logs of the hegemony growing a pair, making their little game all the more comical. Cowards, without equivocation, they are. Not you I would say.

I didst fight for the hegemony, I fought to defend my ally.

You obviously don't understand what the hegemony is. You did fight for it.

I provide a news service, I happen to get more favorable reviews than negative, so I continue to do it, now that the war actually happened, It'll be cut down much more for the most part, and really, you can just come right out and say I'm an attention whore, I admit it.

It was joke in response to your swipe at my verbosity. Note the smiley.

[Lyria]

We are become death, destroyer of worlds.

[Mogar]

Who in Karma wants that? I'd honestly rather have NPO on my side. At least they didn't try to break a treaty and run.

There may be reps, I don't know I'm not involved. I can guarantee you that these terms will not be nearly as bad as anything NPO has let off. If I am wrong and my alliance or any member of CnG signs them I will depart for somebody who didn't.

And yes NPO did screw you, but honestly you were screwed already. The choice you and NPO had were to wait as more and more alliances left your banner and our side solidified further or go in now and hope to hit us while we're disorganized and scatter us. They went with option two, the smart option. Unfortunately it was way too late for that. As allies, you were screwed when you didn't leave as soon as this whole thing started. At that point it was a matter of falling beside NPO with honor or falling afterwards on your own without. Amazingly, Hegemony found the third option, falling at NPO's side without honor (Note: this is not a blanket statement towards all of Hegemony, merely those that tried to cancel and run. As far as I know IRAN didn't pull, nor did any of the OPP or a number of others. However, plenty of the big boys tried, including your protectors).

IRAN got screwed over by our "Trium of War" who got himself anarchied on the first night of war and bill locked by day 4, but yes most of the hegemony alliances were pissed off and should have handled the situation better, but whats done is done and it's irrelevant what their intentions were, they're all at war now, I just hope they arent given as harsh terms as NPO is going to get.

Here you go with rambling on without evidence again. See how beautifully you keep proving my point? There won't be any evidence, by the way, because no one else has ever been in power. And yet you hegemony apologists still insist on trying to sound like you have any idea what you're talking about.

OOC: I'm sure you've heard of other political simulators, my evidence is my own personal experience from a half dozen games that all have the same basic storyline each time

Many hegemony alliances managed to keep their cowardice relatively quiet and later pretended that joining the war was their plan all along. Your allies, however, (TPF that is) in a hilarious display laid their drama out for all to see. If we can be sure of the cowardice of any alliance, it is TPF. We were then later treated with the Tattler's logs of the hegemony growing a pair, making their little game all the more comical. Cowards, without equivocation, they are. Not you I would say.

Alot of TPF gov wanted to leave NPO out to dry for this nonsense, I find it funny you call people cowards for wanting to cancel on NPO then, yet praised Sparta for doing the same two days earlier

You obviously don't understand what the hegemony is. You did fight for it.

I fought my allies, no one else, they're considered a member of the hegemony but I did my duty as a loyal ally, always would no matter what the odds against them, as I would expect them to do for me, TPF is one of the few alliances I would count on to have my back if i ever needed help, treaty or not, same with SSSW18.

It was joke in response to your swipe at my verbosity. Note the smiley.

It wasn't a swipe, you just said something in a rather large amount of words that could be been said far simpler, I dislike wasting words and attempt to say things as bluntly as possible, it usually helps to avoid misunderstandings.

[Sal Paradise]

Alot of TPF gov wanted to leave NPO out to dry for this nonsense, I find it funny you call people cowards for wanting to cancel on NPO then, yet praised Sparta for doing the same two days earlier

In this thread, you've proven yourself incapable of recognizing differences in situations.

I fought my allies, no one else, they're considered a member of the hegemony but I did my duty as a loyal ally, always would no matter what the odds against them, as I would expect them to do for me, TPF is one of the few alliances I would count on to have my back if i ever needed help, treaty or not, same with SSSW18.

Good for you. You still fought for the hegemony, and you still don't understand the meaning of the term.