The Return and the Struggle

[Gruthenia]

Why give him the chance to commit a crime you know he's going to commit? That's isn't my view btw, just a hypothetical counter-argument.

Keeping players on P/EZI gives them more motivation to commit "crimes" as once you've hit the maximum level of punishment you can no longer be threatened further than you already have been, and things considered crimes are often the only way for the oppressed to effectively fight back. So I guess you do know he's going to commit a "crime" because you give them a good reason to do so.

[Ejayrazz]

"OOC ATTACKS ARE BAD"....Yet, it is the very definition of EZI. Try to persuade those with technicality nonense, but when it comes down to it...You're attacking the player behind the computer screen, not in the computer screen. It has been long enough. JB isn't a terrible guy, let him play the damn game.

Where is the evidence again, for reference?

[Unko Kalaikz]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about him doing an OOC logdump. I will unequivocally say that his conversation with ironchef that he logdumped would not have happened if he they were not OOC friends. He betrayed that OOC friendship. Hence my recommendation that anyone who doesn't want to get logdumped just put him on ignore and never talk to him.

If I controlled the world I would never let him off my lists. Someone who betrays an OOC friendship and trust like that for whatever PR or political gain is lower than dirt in my opinion and needs the IC equivalent of a bullet to the brainpan. Damn snitch

[Doitzel]

ITT Doitzel argues alongside the Hegemony's party line. I thought Vox Populi was fighting to end this kind of thing? So you really believe that someone who commited a "crime" on one character should be punished on another character due to a conversation on IRC? Isn't this the same punishment that JB is apparently held to? This is me disappointed. Or perhaps I just thought more highly of Vox Populi than I should have.

No, I think he got attacked by us for being in NATO -- a member of the Continuum -- and following us around spouting garbage everywhere. I think that if he wants to pretend he's somebody else he needs to act like it rather than carrying all the same grudges over but developing amnesia about his name.

I also think Starfox and Junkalunka have a ridiculous and childish feud that they both need to get over and move on from. I don't like what Starfox did, I said so at that time both here and to him. Either way, nothing ever came of it so it's a moot point. A lapse in judgment at worst in a spot where both of their personalities are vulnerable.

[Bilrow]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about him doing an OOC logdump. I will unequivocally say that his conversation with ironchef that he logdumped would not have happened if he they were not OOC friends. He betrayed that OOC friendship. Hence my recommendation that anyone who doesn't want to get logdumped just put him on ignore and never talk to him.

To be honest, and not defending Jonathan's part in all that, Ironchef was naive and playing a game of chicken to even hold a query with Jonathan and not expect it to be posted. Both are at fault.

The tip for anyone who does not want their words to appear on the forums, do not carry on a private query with Jonathan. If you do, you have no reason to complain when he dumps it.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Bilrow

[General Specific]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about him doing an OOC logdump. I will unequivocally say that his conversation with ironchef that he logdumped would not have happened if he they were not OOC friends. He betrayed that OOC friendship. Hence my recommendation that anyone who doesn't want to get logdumped just put him on ignore and never talk to him.

Sweet gawd, Bob. Please don't tell us you really buy that. True or not, it is the bottom of the bottom of gameplay to even argue this way. It's also about the saddest excuse for gameplay logic I have seen admitted on the OWF. It's best to keep this level of neurosis off of these boards. I know you can't really think this way, too.

[RandomInterrupt]

To be honest, and not defending Jonathan's part in all that, Ironchef was naive and playing a game of chicken to even hold a query with Jonathan and not expect it to be posted. Both are at fault.

The tip for anyone who does not want their words to appear on the forums, do not carry on a private query with Jonathan. If you do, you have no reason to complain when he dumps it.

Odd. I've many many conversations with JB and yet not a single one has been posted on this forum. Perhaps it has more to do with the content of a discussion rather than who it is with? Naw!

[Bilrow]

Odd. I've many many conversations with JB and yet not a single one has been posted on this forum. Perhaps it has more to do with the content of a discussion rather than who it is with? Naw!

Actually he did post conversations from One Vision IRC rooms with you in them.

[RandomInterrupt]

Actually he did post conversations from One Vision IRC rooms with you in them.

That is not the same thing as a "private query with Jonathan" as you stated. I have no problem with my words in that channel and don't mind them being shared. I don't know if JB asked my permission before he posted said logs, but if he had I'd of given it.

[ModusOperandi]

Actually he did post conversations from One Vision IRC rooms with you in them.

Bilrow involved in a conversation about "integrity"??? Now I've seen everything.

[Goose]

There are a number of things I could respond to at this point, but I'm going to limit it to Goose's post here, just to clear up a little misconception that seems to be going around. The reason I have been told I am on the two e-ZI lists and one p-ZI list, and previously on the GGA's list, is that I founded Vox Populi. Nothing else. No other reason has been given for why I remain on the multiple types of ZI lists, despite my asking numerous times, as well as many others asking as well.

Contrary to what they want you to believe, I don't just go log dumping randomly all the time. It's not something I've done since I joined CN, nor is it something I've done every day since I was placed on e-ZI. I have placed logs on the forums TWICE. Both times have been a result of not being able to play CN, not because I have some "log dumping gene" or because I "made it a habit to dump logs all the time." As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, I had been attempting to negotiate my peace for a couple of weeks prior to Starfox101 making the thread with my written piece in it. The reason why that was piece was written was because, frankly, I was legitimately concerned at what CN had degenerated to. It was spurred both by Finster's comments to me and by some of the stuff I was seeing in the OOC sections of the forums by some of the CN players.

My apologies for the ignorance, but your alleged 'log dumping gene' has been thrown about as reason enough to keep you forever at zero infrastructure, no matter your IC persona. As you'll notice, I don't support such practice as it doesn't solve the problem (if there is one).

I wish you luck in your endeavor to return to the game in peace. You have one thing for you. The two largest alliances in the game fear you enough to think that you ever playing again would cause irreparable harm to them. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[Delta1212]

Wouldn't the best defense against someone who constantly log dumps be to not talk to him?

Because it seems like ZIing him would just encourage more log dumping of anything he could get his hands on while ignoring him completely eliminates the problem. I'm lost.

[Goose]

Wouldn't the best defense against someone who constantly log dumps be to not talk to him?

Because it seems like ZIing him would just encourage more log dumping of anything he could get his hands on while ignoring him completely eliminates the problem. I'm lost.

You are not the only one, Delta.

[Kzoppistan]

Wow, that last 30 minutes of reading every post sure was a waste. There were some great points, but the rest? What a bunch of blah blah blah.

When reality clashes with ideology what path do you take? If spending the last several months trying to beg, argue, and convince your enemies doesn't work, and trying to drum up enough public support to put pressure on your enemies for your cause doesn't work, why not try something different?

I'm not exactly sure what the OP is trying to accomplish with this post, except to boo-hoo in public. Why not just re-roll, keep your identity a secret, and work to create an underground movement to extract your revenge? If you have friends that you want to keep but you can't tell them your secret because they'll leak it, then you need to pick better friends.

I wish you good luck, because luck is what you'll need if you don't use a little cunning. Your new nation is, what, 2 days old? And you've already brought yourself into the crosshairs of your old enemies... unless your goal is to be an attention grabbing whipping boy then perhaps a little subtlety would do you well. Sheesh, good luck, indeed.

*On a side note, how do you manage to be 2 days old but 3 days inactive?

Last Activity: 4/1/2009 11:06:29 PM (3 Days Inactive)

Nation Created: 4/2/2009 11:06:29 PM (2 days old)

Edited April 4, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Monster]

*On a side note, how do you manage to be 2 days old but 3 days inactive?

Last Activity: 4/1/2009 11:06:29 PM (3 Days Inactive)

Nation Created: 4/2/2009 11:06:29 PM (2 days old)

When you create your nation you start off with a day of inactivity. It happens to everyone.

[Margrave]

I've never heard of the Republic of Orange Nations. Are they an up and coming contender to IRON?

You teach us so much, Viridia.

You teach us all.

[Kzoppistan]

When you create your nation you start off with a day of inactivity. It happens to everyone.

And knowing is half the battle...

Thanks!

*Edit: Great sig, btw.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[o-dog]

I struggled to believe that EZI/PZI was true, it just seemed too idiotically cruel.

Really, the scum of the earth couldn't come up with something worse.

[Bernard]

JB is welcome to join UME while he works on getting his diplomatic status back to normal.

[uaciaut]

Did you even read my post? I didn't say anything about him doing an OOC logdump. I will unequivocally say that his conversation with ironchef that he logdumped would not have happened if he they were not OOC friends. He betrayed that OOC friendship. Hence my recommendation that anyone who doesn't want to get logdumped just put him on ignore and never talk to him.

EZI for misplacing your OOC trust is a really bad reason and it further brings OOC in a place where it shouldn't be present at all.

also @Blue: logdumping isn't equivalent to spying. If you give out info to someone outside your alliance you do so at your own risk - if it affects your alliance's security it should be your fault, not the other guy's.

[ChairmanHal]

Sweet gawd, Bob. Please don't tell us you really buy that. True or not, it is the bottom of the bottom of gameplay to even argue this way. It's also about the saddest excuse for gameplay logic I have seen admitted on the OWF. It's best to keep this level of neurosis off of these boards. I know you can't really think this way, too.

So then it is your contention that the player behind 'Jonathan Brookbank' doesn't use the OOC relationships he strikes up on IRC to elicit remarks that he later dumps in the form of logs on this very forum whenever the mood strikes him? What a delightful land of denial you live in.

No, it's NOT neurotic in the least to ignore the player and continue with your game play. He can't log dump conversations he never had with you.

IMHO, and only my humble opinion, not Valhalla's, I could give a flying duck if the player behind 'Jonathan Brookbank' decides to create a new role-play persona and continue to play CN. Indeed, I'm very much against pursuing players across characters. However, 'Jonathan Brookbank' doesn't particularly deserve relief--it is characters like him that PZI was created for in the first place.

[CptGodzilla]

as JB might account to, I am not his biggest fan

But, I must say, give the man a break.

ninja edit: it's not his fault they trusted him.

Edited April 4, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[ChairmanHal]

as JB might account to, I am not his biggest fan

But, I must say, give the man a break.

ninja edit: it's not his fault they trusted him.

My advice to members of Ragnarok (who was burned by 'Jonathan Brookbank' while I was there) and now Valhalla has been consistent. Don't talk to 'Jonathan Brookbank'. Period. If you have reason to believe you are talking to the player behind 'Jonathan Brookbank' using another IRC name (and yes he has more than one), close out of the conversation.

Once again, he can't use logs later that he doesn't have.

[Draztikus]

Really, the scum of the earth couldn't come up with something worse.

what about "probationary ZI"? all the fun of EZI with added bureaucratic goodness!

[Blue Lightning]

What on earth are you even talking about. I am against EZI because I think people deserve the chance to play a different character after they "lose" with their first one. I only pointed out that Junka/Silva basically playing the same character across rerolls hurts the cause as it gives people like you a rationalization to EZI. How on earth is that hypocritical.

I think he meant it was hypocritical of you to say that spearo's (the player behind the keyboard, I don't know his RL name) use of a past character to gain a foothold with his new one (saying "Hey guys, I'm this guy's reroll" to some of his alliance mates) was not justification for the NPO to attack his new character. While at the same time, saying that Count da Silva's resemblance to his supposed (I don't know (or care) whether he is or not, to be honest) past character, and lack of a genuine attempt to change character, does justify Vox to attack him.

"OOC ATTACKS ARE BAD"....Yet, it is the very definition of EZI. Try to persuade those with technicality nonense, but when it comes down to it...You're attacking the player behind the computer screen, not in the computer screen. It has been long enough. JB isn't a terrible guy, let him play the damn game.

Where is the evidence again, for reference?

Where is the evidence that people actually use EZI again, for reference?

It's betrayal. Not spying. Doing that would make you a traitor to TOP, but it's a different type of crime.

I call it spying. By your definition, when Vox gains access to an alliance's boards by having someone apply and go through the membership process, it isn't spying. It's just that applicant/member betraying the alliance? I think everyone knows that as spying. Similarly, when Jagged Fel, a member of TOP, decided to leak screenshots of our forums, that was spying as well.

also @Blue: logdumping isn't equivalent to spying. If you give out info to someone outside your alliance you do so at your own risk - if it affects your alliance's security it should be your fault, not the other guy's.

I think we agree. If I were to leak TOP info to someone not in the alliance, I would be the one spying. Even if I leaked it thinking that the other party wouldn't share it. The point is that JB supposedly had access to area A which was meant to be restricted and secret and he then released that information to the public. Which is spying (or as bad as spying) in my book.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Blue Lightning