Brehon Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Listen you can play that line all you want. I happen to know you were DEATHLY worried (you being Umbrella) about 28 NPO nations. So peddle your wares elsewhere to those that aren't aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavii Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Listen you can play that line all you want. I happen to know you were DEATHLY worried (you being Umbrella) about 28 NPO nations. So peddle your wares elsewhere to those that aren't aware. I have no idea what you are talking about, but I have been one of the top nations in Umbrella for a long time, and I have fought in every big war so far, until there were no nations in range or they surrendered. Sometimes the latter, mostly the former. I only echo what Calpih say, not our fault our enemies lack the upper tiers, or rather hide them in PM. Edited February 22, 2013 by Xavii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshuaR Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 No, its was simply Umbrella has presented it as an untouchable force done by some miraculous and genius plan. The amount of wars Umbrella as a whole (notice I said as a whole) has been actively engaged in or did heavy lifting is VERY light. Umbrella engages in pretty much every decent-sized war. You can say that they took less damage in the past because they were always on the winning side, if you wish, and you can say they did less heavy lifting, but that has nothing to do with Umbrella and everything to do with her opponents, if you do believe that is the sole reason Umbrella looks so much prettier than other alliances. Listen you can play that line all you want. I happen to know you were DEATHLY worried (you being Umbrella) about 28 NPO nations. So peddle your wares elsewhere to those that aren't aware. And I was the one peddling the idea that NPO/DH was sort of unnecessary (because you weren't even in our range, even more so when you didn't come out of PM). I take it back. You were trying to avoid a global war by not following treaty chains. You deserved the beat-down you received from Doomhouse, and those twenty-eight nations had to come out of PM for you to get a minimal-length war. It wasn't about fear, it was about not allowing someone to completely avoid a war (where it counts, the upper tier) and expect to pretend they had warred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol Navy Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Umbrella's greatest benefit was their relationship with GOONS and GOONS willingness to be basically an eternal tech farm for them. MK got a ton of tech from TOP and Co, which helped their cause and hurt TOP's pretty significantly. GOONS takes reps in every conflict of any kind over the past few years an d that was just a brief stopping point for those reps as they turned into tech for Umbrella. Most wars the past few years the top 25 in MK and UMB fight a round or two and were then out of range. Karma was so devastating for this side it set us 2 years behind the winning side.BiPolar and DH/NPO took another year of progress away for the alliances that lost those. I had 8500 tech starting this war but have lost about 12000 in BiPolar/DH/NPO/Karma and the other conflicts since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomzoomzoom Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 No, its was simply Umbrella has presented it as an untouchable force done by some miraculous and genius plan. The amount of wars Umbrella as a whole (notice I said as a whole) has been actively engaged in or did heavy lifting is VERY light. The same could be said for quite a few alliances on your side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do Not Fear Jazz Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Umbrella's greatest benefit was their relationship with GOONS and GOONS willingness to be basically an eternal tech farm for them. MK got a ton of tech from TOP and Co, which helped their cause and hurt TOP's pretty significantly. GOONS takes reps in every conflict of any kind over the past few years an d that was just a brief stopping point for those reps as they turned into tech for Umbrella. Most wars the past few years the top 25 in MK and UMB fight a round or two and were then out of range. Karma was so devastating for this side it set us 2 years behind the winning side.BiPolar and DH/NPO took another year of progress away for the alliances that lost those. I had 8500 tech starting this war but have lost about 12000 in BiPolar/DH/NPO/Karma and the other conflicts since then.So you're three years behind us and still thought it would be a good idea to declare war? lol, g'luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamuella Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Vol Navy, on 22 Feb 2013 - 05:11, said: Umbrella's greatest benefit was their relationship with GOONSYeah, we're pretty fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link Gaetz Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Growing a very large nation take both an active ruler who regualarly does tech deals as well as not being involved regularly in highly destructive wars on the wrong end of things. The math is really pretty obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenMorningstar Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yeah, we're pretty fantastic. Im going to have to agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) GOONS willingness to be basically an eternal tech farm for them. People say this, but they clearly didn't look at our aid screens in the last peacetime. We'd been doing primarily internal deals for quite some time. Also this: Im going to have to agree with this. Edited February 22, 2013 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do Not Fear Jazz Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Growing a very large nation take both an active ruler who regualarly does tech deals as well as not being involved regularly in highly destructive wars on the wrong end of things. The math is really pretty obvious. Read this, agreed, then looked at your AA and saw you are in TPF. Maybe you should join the winning side for once. :smug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenMorningstar Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 People say this, but they clearly didn't look at our aid screens in the last peacetime. We'd been doing primarily internal deals for quite some time. Also this: Whatever Sardonic dont you know we are best tech farm ever for eternity? At least Umbrella owes everything they have to us. Now we are the overlords or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do Not Fear Jazz Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Whatever Sardonic dont you know we are best tech farm ever for eternity? At least Umbrella owes everything they have to us. Now we are the overlords or something like that. Why would you inform the plebians of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banned Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Some of you act as if Umbrella was the only alliance in the world to be able to grow an upper tier these last couple years. No, TOP and MK have been as well :smug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link Gaetz Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Read this, agreed, then looked at your AA and saw you are in TPF. Maybe you should join the winning side for once. :smug: You're inviting me to join Umbrella? :D Your tech ratio isn't good enough for me. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brehon Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) So I made a general statement about umbrella, specified it and you decided to take it personal and use your nation as the counter. Had you said every Umbrella nation was dong that, you would be in the right argument (or even the majority). You didn't therefore your comment is reduced to chest puffing. I am not the masses you can leave that at home. You single nation counter (even if 5 more post it, until we see that more than 50% (and I am being generous by saying 50%) of you 97 nations (yes I am not even remotely bothered by your alliance hoping) or the 138 (if I remember right) nations of that time could show they were active and lifting in wars, then yes I would have to take back my comments and here is a surprise, I would. I have no issues admitting when I am wrong. However, saying all of that, the fact remains, Umbrella as a whole hasn't been challenged and hasn't lifted in a war with the actual nations (because you aiding isn't the same) in a long time. In fact you paced yourselves to NOT have to deal with it in that way. Am I saying that is wrong? Absolutely not. I am saying that doesn't automatically make you some nation making machine of brilliance. Until you are tested in similar ways other powers have been tested and are able to maintain your building path and pace, you have no claim to make. I take it back. You were trying to avoid a global war by not following treaty chains. You deserved the beat-down you received from Doomhouse, and those twenty-eight nations had to come out of PM for you to get a minimal-length war. It wasn't about fear, it was about not allowing someone to completely avoid a war (where it counts, the upper tier) and expect to pretend they had warred. The NPO didn't avoid war and to say that is simply stupid. We were at 12m(approx) NS and had a top tier of approximately 45 nations (and we aren't talking an Umbrella level of top tier as you stated). During that war we lost 6.7m NS BEFORE the top tier was given as a peace term. We had to put in nations that were those bankers (and our bankers are those that are not active, just come on a few times a month but are still part of our community) we were dropped to 4.3m NS. Aka dropped to 1/4th or our strength almost to the level we couldn't mathematically drop further simply due to the amount of nations we had. 3 rounds where we had to ONLY fight the largest nations you had to offer because MK wouldn't match us on the PM. ADDITIONALLY since you want to bring it up, NPO had less than 20% of the alliance in PM compared to 40% for DH across the board. That war and that peace term was an abuse of power based on fear we would counter against you in the future or be allowed to continue to grow. If that isn't fear, what was it? Vengeance because you didn't get what you wanted out of Karma (Umbrella words during peace, not my own). Tell me again how losing that much NS is avoiding war? Are you trying to say you were looking to run us out of the game? So if that is the case are you saying Umbrella has indeed been lying about their intentions, poking, prodding and etc? Are we finally hearing the truth? You tell me. Additionally if we weren't fighting and simply crashing into MK and GOONS, why were you blowing 25 billion in aid and bragging how you could do it without breaking a sweat? Where was that damage coming from, just our allies? Well than that negates the comments made about how nations on "this" side have been avoiding wars. Pick your stance, pick your argument but make sure you run at least consistent. Edited February 22, 2013 by Brehon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol Navy Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 People say this, but they clearly didn't look at our aid screens in the last peacetime. We'd been doing primarily internal deals for quite some time. Also this: But during the great Umbrella rise you weren't. For close to 3 years GOONS didn't grow their alliance, they grew Umbrella. You really were/are great allies for doing that. Hopefully you actually do manage to successfully build a middle/upper tier at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yevgeni Luchenkov Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Why are people bashing GOONS for prefering to keep their alliance as a lower-mid tiered one? If your argument is that wars aren't won in the upper tier, they aren't won in the middle tier either. Keeping a lower tier AA can be useful - and has been very useful, indeed. It's not like your side isn't doing it; many alliances on your side prefer to have their new members do tech deals rather than send them aid, creating the same kind of gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Why are people bashing GOONS for prefering to keep their alliance as a lower-mid tiered one? If your argument is that wars aren't won in the upper tier, they aren't won in the middle tier either. Keeping a lower tier AA can be useful - and has been very useful, indeed. It's not like your side isn't doing it; many alliances on your side prefer to have their new members do tech deals rather than send them aid, creating the same kind of gap. Because meatshield tech farm puppet lap dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 Because meatshield tech farm puppet lap dog. Not because in most wars people try to dogpile on GOONS and yet they still win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indian Bob Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Why are people bashing GOONS for prefering to keep their alliance as a lower-mid tiered one? If your argument is that wars aren't won in the upper tier, they aren't won in the middle tier either. Keeping a lower tier AA can be useful - and has been very useful, indeed. It's not like your side isn't doing it; many alliances on your side prefer to have their new members do tech deals rather than send them aid, creating the same kind of gap. As someone who has deliberately kept my nation small after getting a cash infusion for my MP, I can understand the allure, but I think the issue is the fact that they project other people's power as their own. It's true, they've earned it through wise politicking but it does tend to grate on the nerves. As a matter of fact, I would think the people on your side would be very sympathetic to the feeling since GOONS' operating philosophy seems to be quantity over quality when it comes to nation building. Edited February 22, 2013 by Indian Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not because in most wars people try to dogpile on GOONS and yet they still win? I'm just as shocked as yall are that folks paint people on the other side in their worst possible light when speaking about them in public arenas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'm just as shocked as yall are that folks paint people on the other side in their worst possible light when speaking about them in public arenas. Such is the nature of the OWF during wartimes. I've witnessed people being fully and outright condemned for honoring MDoAP treaties with no treaty conflicts at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not because in most wars people try to dogpile on GOONS and yet they still win? You forgot to say that GOONS used to win wars just because they partners in DH/PB managed until now to just fight easy curbstomps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravitas Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 This thread has outlived its purpose. Locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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