Never bring an Umbrella to a gun fight

[Aeros]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1358630571' post='3080230']
found the thread:

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=74483&st=0"]http://forums.cybern...opic=74483&st=0[/url]

3 and a quarter years actually, and with MO9P and White Majik both involved once again heh.
[/quote]

lol, puppets tried to be the first to respond to that thread. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Caliph]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1358631319' post='3080234']
The DT nation that moved to fill a defensive slot on puppets cooperated fully with AI. The FOK nation that took a defensive slot on puppets stayed in communication with me personally and was cooperative. The MK applicant (not a full MK member at the time he declared if his AA is to be believed) had little contact with us, but so far as we could tell was rather aggressive in his raiding attacks. We chose not to attack MK over one of their applicants raiding. AI does not allow applicants to raid, but hey we don't set MK policy.

Compare and contrast that with Umbrella's response: all those defensive slots are now ours by *our* policy, bugger off. Add in the timing of the declarations by Umbrella and it was clear that puppets tipped them off when he was going to be coming out of PM. Two completely different circumstances, one obvious Umbrella proxy who was being thrown a "retirement party".
[/quote]You don't understand BIBO then. BIBO has been applied to signatories of it who have left Umbrella. I didn't sign it so I didn't get BIBO'd when I left Umbrella, but if you look at the past numerous other nations have gotten hit over BIBO.

BIBO may or may not have been used in this particular case to "steal" Puppet's war slots from AI, but it is not something that was just made up for this singular purpose.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1358631242' post='3080233']
Cmon MM you have existed on Bob far long enough to know no matter what we posted there will always be detractors and spin masters. So what would be the point really, let everyone have the beliefs and fun with a clouded conscience
[/quote]
If you feel you have all the fence sitters you can possibly pull to your side of this show you're right, there is no point. But, if you feel there are some folks not committed to a side then there is every reason to make a strong case.

You are also correct that your detractors will spin anything you put up, but I have to ask, did you post this CB for your enemy, for yourself or for the world at large? If it is the last reason then you do have some obligation to support your CB at this press conference.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1358605529' post='3079907']
Well said, child. Let his light envelop you, warm you, shield you, strengthen you. You do not go alone, for update is dark and full of terrors.
[/quote]

AllahArchon is my savior and Ardus is my shield. May they both rule for eternity.

[Branimir]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1358631319' post='3080234'] Add in the timing of the declarations by Umbrella and it was clear that puppets tipped them off when he was going to be coming out of PM.[/quote]
Yeah, for me this is the biggest issue. It clearly indicates level of coordination.

When you add a blown stagger, it does seem they wanted to help the guy last longer and be able to choose AI nations to hit. Well, be it as it may, we now war.

As highlighted in the DoW, more then anything this was just a tipping point in a series of incidents in dealing with Umb in which alliances DoW-ing feel they have been wronged.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Branimir

[Robert2424]

Happy Hunting People, don't bug out too fast.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1358631319' post='3080234']
The DT nation that moved to fill a defensive slot on puppets cooperated fully with AI. The FOK nation that took a defensive slot on puppets stayed in communication with me personally and was cooperative. The MK applicant (not a full MK member at the time he declared if his AA is to be believed) had little contact with us, but so far as we could tell was rather aggressive in his raiding attacks. We chose not to attack MK over one of their applicants raiding. AI does not allow applicants to raid, but hey we don't set MK policy.

Compare and contrast that with Umbrella's response: all those defensive slots are now ours by *our* policy, bugger off. Add in the timing of the declarations by Umbrella and it was clear that puppets tipped them off when he was going to be coming out of PM. Two completely different circumstances, one obvious Umbrella proxy who was being thrown a "retirement party".
[/quote]

this entire post made me LOL... You would be better off just calling it what it is. Show me Umbrella not inflicting maximum damage, and I will buy your moral outrage, absent that, lets just be blunt and honest.... it was convenient.... More than enough leadership on your side have confirmed this to me privately.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lord Valleo]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1358631688' post='3080239']
If you feel you have all the fence sitters you can possibly pull to your side of this show you're right, there is no point. But, if you feel there are some folks not committed to a side then there is every reason to make a strong case.

You are also correct that your detractors will spin anything you put up, but I have to ask, did you post this CB for your enemy, for yourself or for the world at large? If it is the last reason then you do have some obligation to support your CB at this press conference.
[/quote]I personally dont care about "fence sitters", they can stay on the fence or fall to whatever side they may. I am not a salesman and don't try to sell people. They see what is presented here and make their own decisions.

So this is a press conference....heh. CB has been posted and there has been supporting discussion and statements. There is no obligation to support this to anyone. People can either accept it or not. Fact is War has been declared and will be fought. Fence Sitters and Side-liners can either enjoy the show or not watch.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358632279' post='3080245']
this entire post made me LOL... You would be better off just calling it what it is. Show me Umbrella not inflicting maximum damage, and I will buy your moral outrage, absent that, lets just be blunt and honest.... it was convenient.... More than enough leadership on your side have confirmed this to me privately.
[/quote]

Convenient doesn't make it any less legitimate, Rush.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1358632314' post='3080246']
BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.
[/quote]

On this, I agree. Its a ridiculous policy.... the only other alliance I know of that had that policy was GGA... and.. well... we see how it ended for them. That being said... you sir, stop your nonsense posts about "no counters yet? lol Umbrella's allies".... there is no abandonment... and its been less than 24 hours. You are better than that!

[King Biscuit]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1358631775' post='3080240']
AllahArchon is my savior and Ardus is my shield. May they both rule for eternity.
[/quote]
You disappoint me Chax.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Lord Valleo' timestamp='1358632664' post='3080251']
I personally dont care about "fence sitters", they can stay on the fence or fall to whatever side they may. I am not a salesman and don't try to sell people. They see what is presented here and make their own decisions.

So this is a press conference....heh. CB has been posted and there has been supporting discussion and statements. There is no obligation to support this to anyone. People can either accept it or not. Fact is War has been declared and will be fought. Fence Sitters and Side-liners can either enjoy the show or not watch.
[/quote]

I can accept a Foxtrot Uniform when I see one.
Good day sir.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358632744' post='3080253']
On this, I agree. Its a ridiculous policy.... the only other alliance I know of that had that policy was GGA... and.. well... we see how it ended for them. That being said... you sir, stop your nonsense posts about "no counters yet? lol Umbrella's allies".... there is no abandonment... and its been less than 24 hours. You are better than that!
[/quote]

The latter are just the ramblings of a war craven and hungry wyrm.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1358632690' post='3080252']
Convenient doesn't make it any less legitimate, Rush.
[/quote]

I like when you quote me.. then parrot what I have said all along. I dont know how many more times I can say it... I would have done exactly what you did in the current political setup. One year ago, you woulda done nothing, I have no problem with any of this. Just stop with the "we were aggrieved!" nonsense. Many of your allies have abandoned that and embraced the truth... follow suit.

[Jake Liebenow]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1358632314' post='3080246']
BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.
[/quote]

Someone sounds butthurt!

No [OOC]game policies[/OOC] have been violated here, and I would strongly suggest you and everyone on the other side please refrain from falsely reporting this as such. That's wasting Admin's time, and it's seriously threatening some people's ability to exist when this is clearly a political issue.

[dem61s]

So...
- We have Umb on one side claiming ownership of the slots because of BIBO.
- Ai on the other side claiming the same thing because they got hit.

Seems to me like Umb was faster at implementing their policy than Ai.
Also seems to me like Ai and friends are ready to start a full blown war against anyone who doesn't follow their policy.

But... Wasn't it precisely what DH was being criticized about?

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='dem61s' timestamp='1358633267' post='3080261']
So...
- We have Umb on one side claiming ownership of the slots because of BIBO.
- Ai on the other side claiming the same thing because they got hit.

Seems to me like Umb was faster at implementing their policy than Ai.
Also seems to me like Ai and friends are ready to start a full blown war against anyone who doesn't follow their policy.

But... Wasn't it precisely what DH was being criticized about?
[/quote]

Common sense would dictate that the alliace attacked is allowed to defend itself. Nobody ever criticized DH for defending itself. DH however does have a history of playing these littles games, this time it just bit them in the ass.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1358633560' post='3080263']
Nobody ever criticized DH for defending itself.
[/quote]

I could not stop laughing after I read this. Not even YOU believe that! Defense is all in how you spin it. Defense ALWAYS angers someone who doesnt agree that it is defense.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1358632314' post='3080246']
BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.
[/quote]
That is your opinion, however BIBO has been applied many times before this time, nations have been hit and damaged because of BIBO prior to this specific indicent before. BIBO policies have not changed nor have they been altered for this situation.

BIBO hasn't changed. It remains a fact that you folks used this BIBO implementation to go for the war you lot have been pushing for for the past few months. Granted, so has the other side, so its nice to finally get this tension releived and this war finally being fought.

Just don't claim that you were wronged injustly or some such nonsense, or that BIBO is the root of all evil and BIBO policies forced you to declare war, because BIBO policies have not changed because of this situation and will not change because of AI or NPO.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358633051' post='3080260']
Someone sounds butthurt!

No [OOC]game policies[/OOC] have been violated here, and I would strongly suggest you and everyone on the other side please refrain from falsely reporting this as such. That's wasting Admin's time, and it's seriously threatening some people's ability to exist when this is clearly a political issue.
[/quote]
Sup Jack. I think previous precedents have been set though that make what you are saying an uphill battle. History has show MV is more in line with how o'Mightly Admin has thus raised his hand of justice.

And it's actually me who's butthurt. Last night was a doozy!

Edited January 19, 2013 by Steve Buscemi

[Caliph]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1358633560' post='3080263']
Common sense would dictate that the alliace attacked is allowed to defend itself. Nobody ever criticized DH for defending itself. DH however does have a history of playing these littles games, this time it just bit them in the ass.
[/quote]
In all honesty I remember several wars in which the alliance attacked was criticized for defending herself or her direct MDP allies.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1358632314' post='3080246']
BIBO needs to die.. and no alliance should be permitted to use it. To me it simply is slot filling by another name and I pray Admin steps on it eventually and everyone who has ever confessed to utilizing it.
[/quote]

You know, I never liked BIBO but if its going to give us more posts like this, then I will defend it to the death.

[JoshuaR]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1358593155' post='3079828']
He has admitted that that having his slots filled in a way that enabled him to slip back into peace mode so he could rebuy up to 25 nukes was planned with Umbrella in advance. This was not BIBO it was an attack on Ai orchestrated by Umbrella with the goal of stopping a stagger on his nation at all costs to maximise the damage he could inflict on Ai.
[/quote]
puppets is a rogue. He left Umbrella. That's all part of why we hit him. His words are not our words. When he says that this was [b]planned[/b], he means it was [b]planned by him[/b]. He told us he was done with CN if there wasn't a war by Christmas. There wasn't. So he went about his plan of quitting the game, and that plan entailed hitting various nations that he didn't like or something. He also planned to escape to PM for another round. Either he asked the raider nations to attack him, or he posted on IRC about how he was a rogue, or by his declaration of war in Alliance Announcements, he made himself a target for raiders and anyone that could find a slot on him. He planned this. His plan worked.

You guys are attempting to blame Umbrella for the first round of attacks where not a single Umbrella member hit puppets. He was hit by nations on FOK, MK Applicant, and DT. After being hit, puppets' plan seems to have been to escape to PM, like many rogues before him. He succeeded in this, he rebought nuclear weapons. He came out, and he attacked more people. He then spent his warchest purchasing infrastructure to have more of a tactical advantage in these wars.

He also told us how this was his last round of war, and in that case a stagger doesn't even matter. Of course, you could blame Umbrella for being gullible and buying into a lie, if that's what it was, but you can also look at the fact that puppets bought a ton of infra after declaring his wars as evidence that he didn't care about saving a warchest for another round of war.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1358624647' post='3080140']
That is not what I am getting. You can read the OP and see why Ai is upset. It is not that hard really. The last time Umb/co messed up a stagger, Puppets was allowed to slip into PM and rebuild 25 nukes to use against Ai. That to me seems more like intentionally aiding the enemy of Ai not simply messing up a stagger.
[/quote]
We did not have anything to do with the first stagger being blown.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358629111' post='3080215']
Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358630063' post='3080223']
Of course they can and they did, but they cannot claim some sort of moral outrage at what Umb did. Umb doing what it did was stupid. AI not making a clear statement about Puppets after it was done the 1st time (by 0 Umbrella nations) was, also, a mistake. I have been perfectly clear.... considering the state of CN politics... if I were AI, I would have moved on Umb too.... and to their credit they did. But let us not pretend like this isnt something other than a CB of convenience, and not something that AI felt legitimately wronged by. Its a culmination of months of prodding.
[/quote]
I see I do not have to point out the obvious to everyone, as it has already been pointed out above.

Umbrella was not attempting to instigate a war. People had already hit puppets and ruined one stagger before with no consequence. AI jokingly posted how they knew they wouldn't be able to hold a stagger and would break it themselves just to ensure that they could get more nations on rogues for more casualties. Umbrella took it as a matter of fact that the stagger would be blown.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1358631319' post='3080234']
The DT nation that moved to fill a defensive slot on puppets cooperated fully with AI. The FOK nation that took a defensive slot on puppets stayed in communication with me personally and was cooperative. The MK applicant (not a full MK member at the time he declared if his AA is to be believed) had little contact with us, but so far as we could tell was rather aggressive in his raiding attacks. We chose not to attack MK over one of their applicants raiding. AI does not allow applicants to raid, but hey we don't set MK policy.

Compare and contrast that with Umbrella's response: all those defensive slots are now ours by *our* policy, bugger off. Add in the timing of the declarations by Umbrella and it was clear that puppets tipped them off when he was going to be coming out of PM. Two completely different circumstances, one obvious Umbrella proxy who was being thrown a "retirement party".
[/quote]
Yes, those nations seem to have been hitting puppets hard. Yes, Umbrella nations seem to have been hitting puppets hard, just like Timmehhh.

There is an analogy to be made for timing of the declarations on puppets. In his first set of wars, he posted on the forums about how he was a rogue (maybe also on IRC? I wasn't there), and his slots were filled quickly. The second, on IRC he made people aware that he was out of PM. And people hit him, knowing if they didn't, others would.

[Branimir]

[quote name='dem61s' timestamp='1358633267' post='3080261']Seems to me like Umb was faster at implementing their policy than Ai.[/quote]
Yeah, within 4 minutes. That is some speed. One would thing that someone so efficient, and dedicated to Blood in Blood out would also stagger.
How else to get the Blood out part right.
[quote name='dem61s' timestamp='1358633267' post='3080261']Also seems to me like Ai and friends are ready to start a full blown war against anyone who doesn't follow their policy.[/quote]
Common policy during the history of the world. Its not uniquely only theirs.
[quote name='dem61s' timestamp='1358633267' post='3080261']But... Wasn't it precisely what DH was being criticized about?[/quote]
Its criticized due to going against the commonly established standard with its unique approach.

P.S. You are not as clever as you think. Obviously we all try to spin for our sides here, it would be dishonest to say different, but yours is very primitive. Leave this to someone else.