Since apparently that didn't make people happy

[Max Power]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1340213104' post='2990203']
I'm not sure why. Everyone and their brother knew CSN was going to fight DT, especially given that I [i]publicly[/i] stated DT would get its war soon enough (obviously there were complications on the front). To my knowledge, DT was going to preempt us either the same night as DH or the following night. Whether or not DH was aware of this I can't say, but I'm not sure why DT would be, of all people, the ones to get chewed out when they were really the only ones who had any justifiable reason to preempt CSN in the first place.
[/quote]
Because they left their blocmate and our MDP partner Asgaard to burn. CSN was already peaced out so it was no longer a threat. They valued their personal grudge over 1/3 of their blocmate's NS.

Our relations with DT have improved a bit since then so I won't go on.

Mogar, it [i]was[/i] denounced, not supported.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Max Power

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340214303' post='2990251']
3) I know more about the Karma CB than a lot of people, I was heavily involved in information brokering at that time, and extensively infiltrated that Blackstone group (don't need a nation in an all-anon vapor alliance). I accessed the highest levels of Blackstone, and saw that OV directly aligned themselves with Blackstone. They even had a secret treaty. Perhaps it was real, perhaps it was an elaborate ruse that we failed to identify. But unlike MK, our coalition worked hard and dug deep. MK openly acknowledges that their "CB" is a joke.
[/quote]

I can imagine the hegemony channels now.

<hot55> what can I do!!!
<importantperson> uh go infiltrate blackstone or whatever
<hot55> yes sir!!!
--hot55 has left #poopbutt--
<importantperson> thank god

[Exige]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1340210820' post='2990127']
>implying that a coalition isn't responsible for the actions of individual alliances.

you can't sit there and honestly say you'd be happy with the people who said "oh we'll give you peace" knowing full well you'll be attacked again within 24 hours.

edit: OOC: Hal, did you really need to godwin the thread?
[/quote]

I wouldn't be so sure that MK knew that CSN would get hit the next day.
I was in NoR at that time and I can tell you that Mj didn't knew that DH would declare on CSN
Now I'm in Umbrella and people there didn't knew that DTéco would attack CSN after they pieced out
So I assume that MK didn't knew this either

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1340215333' post='2990281']
I wouldn't be so sure that MK knew that CSN would get hit the next day.
I was in NoR at that time and I can tell you that Mj didn't knew that DH would declare on CSN
Now I'm in Umbrella and people there didn't knew that DTéco would attack CSN after they pieced out
So I assume that MK didn't knew this either
[/quote]

MK and co would've known that DT and co were going to have that war anyway so I'm actually surprised Mj wasn't up in arms over DH trying to take those slots first

Edit: anyone could see that dt-csn war coming soon as their last front closed

Edited June 20, 2012 by Lurunin

[Exige]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1340215852' post='2990298']
MK and co would've known that DT and co were going to have that war anyway so I'm actually surprised Mj wasn't up in arms over DH trying to take those slots first

Edit: anyone could see that dt-csn war coming soon as their last front closed
[/quote]

Mj wasn't happy with that but it's not like they could turn back time and declare before DH did.

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1340216343' post='2990318']
Mj wasn't happy with that but it's not like they could turn back time and declare before DH did.
[/quote]

Maybe not but it was an. Example of one of the sole reasons for Mj joining the coalition getting spat on. Honestly o would have rooted for DT to finally give Liz what she deserved but for another alliance to taint that victory would make feel like i had ashes in my mouth if I were them

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1340215234' post='2990278']
I can imagine the hegemony channels now.

<hot55> what can I do!!!
<importantperson> uh go infiltrate blackstone or whatever
<hot55> yes sir!!!
--hot55 has left #poopbutt--
<importantperson> thank god
[/quote]
I infiltrated of my own accord, mostly for lulz. Then TPF, my protectors at the time, directed me to the top level leadership circles to reveal my information to those present (I guess as an independent agent, because, as you all know, all alliances accept information) in an attempt to construct a CB. No, I don't really agree with what I did back then. It was a moral error of mine. But I can tell you that our CB back then looks ethically pristine when compared to this garbage. We actually had something of mass, even if we had to dig deep for it.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1340214964' post='2990275']
Because they left their blocmate and our MDP partner Asgaard to burn. CSN was already peaced out so it was no longer a threat. They valued their personal grudge over 1/3 of their blocmate's NS.

Our relations with DT have improved a bit since then so I won't go on.

Mogar, it [i]was[/i] denounced, not supported.
[/quote]

I [i]sincerely[/i] doubt that all of Mj was kept in the dark while DT and RoK colluded to preempt CSN. BN & Asg hit GOD which prompted a counter-response from RnR. GOD was tied up (from the aforementioned declaration) plus NEAT and others, RIA was tied up with NoR/NX/LoSS and others. The only other potential counter would have been CSN/RnR, but CSN was preempted by DH leaving just RnR. That should have been accounted for, in all honesty. Likewise, from what I have been told, much of Asgaard's woes came from the fact that they had quite a few inactives delete mid-war.

[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1340215333' post='2990281']
I wouldn't be so sure that MK knew that CSN would get hit the next day.
I was in NoR at that time and I can tell you that Mj didn't knew that DH would declare on CSN
Now I'm in Umbrella and people there didn't knew that DTéco would attack CSN after they pieced out
So I assume that MK didn't knew this either
[/quote]

DH and co. hit CSN/Chestnut on the premise that they were feigning entry into the war until a later date, so instead of allowing us to group up and plan it out, they took the strategic initiative and preempted us (similar to what is happening in this war). That wasn't the case as TTK, for instance, was not going to be entering the war due to blatant contradicting treaties.

It didn't take a rocket scientist to see the writing on the wall: DT was going to get back what was taken by CSN. I said it directly to Bob on the OWF and via messages between our nations(which were posted as well) , along with Bob mentioning it several times. Admittedly, perhaps, it was "hidden" under all of the crap that is normally flung around in those sorts of threads.

EDIT

Prepositions make all the difference...

Edited June 20, 2012 by SpacingOutMan

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340216748' post='2990326']
I infiltrated of my own accord, mostly for lulz. Then TPF, my protectors at the time, directed me to the top level leadership circles to reveal my information to those present (I guess as an independent agent, because, as you all know, all alliances accept information) in an attempt to construct a CB. No, I don't really agree with what I did back then. It was a moral error of mine. But I can tell you that our CB back then looks ethically pristine when compared to this garbage. We actually had something of mass, even if we had to dig deep for it.
[/quote]

no wonder the hegemony ate it

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340214303' post='2990251']
Lets tackle a few topics:
1) I was quite active during and after the war, but only on IRC, on account of my being removed from this realm by the gods themselves (ooc: I was banned)
2) We had a -real- CB, just not the political capital to back it up. Yes, we were looking for war. Yes, we got ahead of ourselves, Moo sat too long on his throne and became disjoint from reality, much as I respect the man, that is the truth.
3) I know more about the Karma CB than a lot of people, I was heavily involved in information brokering at that time, and extensively infiltrated that Blackstone group (don't need a nation in an all-anon vapor alliance). I accessed the highest levels of Blackstone, and saw that OV directly aligned themselves with Blackstone. They even had a secret treaty. Perhaps it was real, perhaps it was an elaborate ruse that we failed to identify. But unlike MK, our coalition worked hard and dug deep. MK openly acknowledges that their "CB" is a joke.
4) Also, calling Dave a victim, lol. The difference is that CSN was giving the boot and executing punishment upon one of their own. No external involvement existed until you dirt bags decided to grant him protection mid-sentence, specifically to gain a "CB." Which, in any interpretation, was a violation of CSN's rights. As much as you want to twist your aggression around and make some thin argument to consider your war "defensive" in any form.
[/quote]

1. Wow you really can't read between the lines well can you? I know exactly where you were and saw your incessant whining on public channels.

2. No you never had a real CB, as evidenced by the outcome and general consensus.

3. I never realized we had a super spy in our midst, FYI backstone was irrelevant and always was. If you think your downfall was due to some elaborate ruse of shadowy powers setting up blackstone to bait you rather than you making fundamental mistakes then you're more out of touch than I previously thought.

4. Dave was never in CSN, if you're going try to make a sensible argument try to actually get the facts straight.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1340217205' post='2990341']
no wonder the hegemony ate it
[/quote]
leadership was incredibly out of touch with the writing on the wall, and refused to prepare the alliances for a prolonged conflict we might not win, I had even joined Pacifica from TPF to attempt to get "dear leader" to get as many MPs as possible to ensure they could inflict as much damage as possible should things go south, like they did.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1340217743' post='2990349']
1. Wow you really can't read between the lines well can you? I know exactly where you were and saw your incessant whining on public channels.[/quote] ok, cool

[quote]2. No you never had a real CB, as evidenced by the outcome and general consensus.[/quote]
Every alliance on this planet has a persistent CB against MK, simply that you are a hostile menace to the world and no alliance is safe with you at the top. If I declared on you with that CB, which IMO is probably the most valid CB ever, I would most certainly not win the ensuing war. But it doesn't make my CB any less valid. The validity of a CB is not based on who the victor is, it just means you have the muscle and enough lemmings to support you so that you can strong-arm your way through any need to have a justifiable war.

[quote]3. I never realized we had a super spy in our midst, FYI backstone was irrelevant and always was. If you think your downfall was due to some elaborate ruse of shadowy powers setting up blackstone to bait you rather than you making fundamental mistakes then you're more out of touch than I previously thought.[/quote]I always knew you were one of the guys at the top of that mess. Dr. Horrible, right? I just wish I could have come up with concrete evidence in time. It's fascinating how long Sparta was plotting out their backstabbing while pretending to be an ally. Also, the universal password of "capacitor" was really stupid. I actually only got into the admin section by accessing your accounts after the password was forwarded to me by various parties after passing who knows how many hands. Perhaps that was part of the ruse.

[quote]4. Dave was never in CSN, if you're going try to make a sensible argument try to actually get the facts straight.
[/quote]Point is he was not in MK or in any ally of MK. MK stepped in where they did not belong.

[Banksy]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340216748' post='2990326']
I infiltrated of my own accord, mostly for lulz. Then TPF, my protectors at the time, directed me to the top level leadership circles to reveal my information to those present (I guess as an independent agent, because, as you all know, all alliances accept information) in an attempt to construct a CB. No, I don't really agree with what I did back then. It was a moral error of mine. But I can tell you that our CB back then looks ethically pristine when compared to this garbage. We actually had something of mass, even if we had to dig deep for it.
[/quote]
lj scott, is that you?

[Starfox101]

Nice. You punish the individual and common members for what others are doing? No individual terms, once again, sounds familiar.

Im sure you guys felt this was all honorable, knowing your egos, but it's not.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340226422' post='2990508']

Every alliance on this planet has a persistent CB against MK, simply that you are a hostile menace to the world and no alliance is safe with you at the top. If I declared on you with that CB, which IMO is probably the most valid CB ever, I would most certainly not win the ensuing war. But it doesn't make my CB any less valid. The validity of a CB is not based on who the victor is, it just means you have the muscle and enough lemmings to support you so that you can strong-arm your way through any need to have a justifiable war.


[/quote]


Well this ends the debate, ladies and gentlemen. HeroofTime55's criterion for a valid CB is an alliance being a perceived threat.

Edited June 20, 2012 by tamerlane

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1340226422' post='2990508']
Every alliance on this planet has a persistent CB against MK, simply that you are a hostile menace to the world and no alliance is safe with you at the top. If I declared on you with that CB, which IMO is probably the most valid CB ever, I would most certainly not win the ensuing war. But it doesn't make my CB any less valid. The validity of a CB is not based on who the victor is, it just means you have the muscle and enough lemmings to support you so that you can strong-arm your way through any need to have a justifiable war.
[/quote]

After being on NPO's leash for so long I'm utterly delighted you now say being a threat is now a valid CB. I suppose if we followed such a philosophy your alliance would certainly be safe.

[quote]I always knew you were one of the guys at the top of that mess. Dr. Horrible, right? I just wish I could have come up with concrete evidence in time. It's fascinating how long Sparta was plotting out their backstabbing while pretending to be an ally. Also, the universal password of "capacitor" was really stupid. I actually only got into the admin section by accessing your accounts after the password was forwarded to me by various parties after passing who knows how many hands. Perhaps that was part of the ruse.
[/quote]

Did you seriously just accuse me of being in Blackstone? Ah, the final attempts of a desperate man to grasp at straws.

[quote]Point is he was not in MK or in any ally of MK. MK stepped in where they did not belong.[/quote]

That's not the point at all, you framed your argument as the situation of CSN kicking out it's own member and attacking him, and also for spying. The situation was nothing of the sort and simply points out further how idiotic your previous statements were.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Matthew Conrad

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1340227906' post='2990528']
Well this ends the debate, ladies and gentlemen. HeroofTime55's criterion for a valid CB is an alliance being a perceived threat.
[/quote]
False. The alliance has to be an [i]actual[/i] threat for it to be valid. SF/XX/Polar/assorted peripheral alliances are not in any way a threat to you. You decimated their stats last war. They can't possibly stand up to alliances like TOP and Umbrella. No matter if they were theorizing on ways to take you down, they simply [i]can't[/i].

[hr]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1340228185' post='2990541']After being on NPO's leash for so long I'm utterly delighted that you would accuse us of being an persistent threat to everyone in the same vein as your former(?) master. You're saying your alliance, so well attached to NPO, should have been attacked at any time? Something certainly interested I'll keep in mind.[/quote]
>implying I have ever been a puppet of NPO
>implying I have ever been a serious threat and not just a loud-mouthed idiot on the OWF

[quote]
Did you seriously just accuse me of being in Blackstone? Ah, the final attempts of a desperate man to grasp at straws.[/quote]
Well, you did use the phrase "in our midst." I at least know with certainly that someone in Sparta, someone high up, was hosting the forum for Blackstone. I always suspected it was you.

[quote]That's not the point at all, you framed your argument as the situation of CSN kicking out it's own member and attacking him, and also for spying. The situation was nothing of the sort and simply points out further how idiotic your previous statements were. [/quote] Artful dodge, but no, it is the point. Your "CB" is rooted in an act of aggression by your own alliance.

Edited June 20, 2012 by HeroofTime55

[salsabeast1]

Interesting how MKs leader Archon is in peace mode, and so is there defense guy allagainstwood. lol, way to lead by example, what a great leaders MK has!

lol @ trolls of MK, you suck at life.

Edited June 21, 2012 by salsabeast1

[Enamel32]

LOL Salsabeast! You dah man.

[flak attack]

[quote name='salsabeast1' timestamp='1340306233' post='2992015']
Interesting how MKs leader Archon is in peace mode, and so is there defense guy allagainstwood. lol, way to lead by example, what a great leaders MK has!

lol @ trolls of MK, you suck at life.
[/quote]
We're saving IC to help slay the piggy.

And everyone knows Archon is too inactive to actually do any fighting anyway.

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1340210820' post='2990127']
>implying that a coalition isn't responsible for the actions of individual alliances.

you can't sit there and honestly say you'd be happy with the people who said "oh we'll give you peace" knowing full well you'll be attacked again within 24 hours.

edit: OOC: Hal, did you really need to godwin the thread?
[/quote]

False, it was longer than 24 hours later.

I dont know why so many people who had nothing to do with the situation are talking about it, but I'll address some of your points.


[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1340213104' post='2990203']
I'm not sure why. Everyone and their brother knew CSN was going to fight DT, especially given that I [i]publicly[/i] stated DT would get its war soon enough (obviously there were complications on the front). To my knowledge, DT was going to preempt us either the same night as DH or the following night. Whether or not DH was aware of this I can't say, but I'm not sure why DT would be, of all people, the ones to get chewed out when they were really the only ones who had any justifiable reason to preempt CSN in the first place.
[/quote]

SOM is still a smart man. It was well known for months in our circles that it would at least by DT/Legacy going against CSN in some way or another. I don't remember RoK being part of the equation until during the war, or atleast the beginning of it. I don't recall us having a set day when we were going to attack, but that isn't to say it wouldn't of been something where we officially decided the day before or something. I would think DH knew what we were going to do, but didn't know when, cuz as I just said, I don't recall us knowing.


[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1340215333' post='2990281']
I wouldn't be so sure that MK knew that CSN would get hit the next day.
I was in NoR at that time and I can tell you that Mj didn't knew that DH would declare on CSN
[/quote]

Truth and truth. For the latter point, I doubt Mj knew, we were raging pretty hard that day.

For the former point, MK couldn't of known, because we didn't know. After DH attacked we had resigned ourselves to helping someone out in some light duty affair. We gotta remember, DH peaced out on the 8th, we went in on the 10th, we had some time in between. For the duration of the war, and a bit afterwards we thought we were on assistance duty and we looked for a way in, and when I say we I mean I didn't do !@#$. The 9th rolls around and I have a run in with Rota, she talks her normal !@#$ and gets my rage going. I'm sure SOM will vouch that when someone flips my switch I'm in full rage mode. So I run to DT wanting heads on poles and such, my gov gets pissed off because of this as well. We agreed that DT would see if we were needed elsewhere. The 10th rolls around and we green light Sandlot. If anyone remembers we didn't have a terribly awesome blitz, mostly because we made the decision a few hours before update, in fact, I don't think RoK was involved much at all in the blitz iirc.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1340307542' post='2992025']
We're saving IC to help slay the piggy.

And everyone knows Archon is too inactive to actually do any fighting anyway.
[/quote]

I'm surprised no one here could smell the bacon... Oyababy and TBRaiders cooked him up good.

[EgoFreaky]

So you don't take individual surrenders?

Well no one likes having members surrender anyway so I guess everyone will make sure to keep 1 gov member in PM at all times now. It's almost as if you don't want them to come out.

[Banksy]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1340309636' post='2992052']
I guess everyone will make sure to keep 1 gov member in PM at all times now. It's almost as if you don't want them to come out.
[/quote]
Is it a going concern that your government will try to surrender individually?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1340309636' post='2992052']
So you don't take individual surrenders?

Well no one likes having members surrender anyway so I guess everyone will make sure to keep 1 gov member in PM at all times now. It's almost as if you don't want them to come out.
[/quote]

If I get my way, it will be the policy of the Mushroom Kingdom to not engage with any opposing alliance representatives whose nations are in peace mode.

Edited June 21, 2012 by tamerlane