Let a goon talk long enough . . .

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330491349' post='2930469']
Nein comrade, an alliance war by our definition is only between sovereign alliances. Never individuals, and if one of the alliances involved is sovereign and recognized but the other isn't, that's where the 'mass tech raid' category comes in. Anyhoo, the act of somebody sending aid to an individual can lead to an alliance war, as we've seen here, if the sovereign government of the alliance the aiding nation belongs to does not agree to reparations. This does not mean it has become an alliance war, the refusal to come to terms of the sovereign government of the aiding alliance makes it an alliance war, plenty of times we have come to simple diplomatic agreements with these sorts of incidents. Additionally, in this scenario, the tech raid has not [I]Become[/I] an alliance war so much as sparked one. For all my distaste for unaligned, the unaligned in this case is for all intents and purposes, an innocent bystander in the whole thing, who can leave the situation by merely joining a valid alliance. (unless he launches an aggressive war on GOONS, of course).
[/quote]
I think this is still moderately hypocritical, but you are correct in saying that you were not being hypocritical in supporting NG or whatever in the past few weeks. It's just that you've written the hypocrisy into your charter, and enforce it with your alliance's sovereignty. Which is actually pretty impressive, and the kind of gutsy-in-a-bureaucratic-way maneuver more alliances should consider. It also tickles me pink that the GOONS are currently led by a capable e-lawyer.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330556958' post='2930819']
Oh the hypocrisy. I am sure NPO would have preferred to have had the same mercy shown a year ago.
[/quote]

You're really not that smart, are you? Or are you deliberately being obtuse?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Emperor Marx

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330557029' post='2930822']
NPO didn't disband; not exist for two years and then come back under different government you halfwit.
[/quote]

But they were judged for past "crimes" to suit convenience.

When the new GOONs acts in a manner different from the old one then I will agree and say the two are different alliances like say Grams for example. But right now? No, same morons doing the same old crap.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330557282' post='2930825']
You're really not that smart, are you? Or are you deliberately being obtuse?
[/quote]

Try harder and you might get somewhere. But again, the same old topic diversion tricks. You really can't teach an old mutt new tricks it would appear.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1330557082' post='2930823']
I think this is still moderately hypocritical, but you are correct in saying that you were not being hypocritical in supporting NG or whatever in the past few weeks. It's just that you've written the hypocrisy into your charter, and enforce it with your alliance's sovereignty. Which is actually pretty impressive, and the kind of gutsy-in-a-bureaucratic-way maneuver more alliances should consider. It also tickles me pink that the GOONS are currently led by a capable e-lawyer.
[/quote]
Well thanks, I think , I still don't believe it to be hypocritical, it's just an aggressive expansion of traditional policy.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330557399' post='2930826']
When the new GOONs acts in a manner different from the old one then I will agree and say the two are different alliances like say Grams for example. But right now? No, same morons doing the same old crap.
[/quote]
How's this:

GOONS 1.0
[quote]
The GOONS-FARK Peace Accords

I. Resolution

-This plan acknowledges that FARK has been kept down for so long they don't know what up is. By signing this document, fark also admits that Wil Wheaton is a biased son of a *!%@$.

-Upon adoption, this treaty grants a state of peace between Fark and GOONS and all alliances fighting on behalf of or because of GOONS.

II. Terms

1. Fark solemnly swears never to raise arms against the Goon Order or any of Her allies.

2. Fark must publicly state that theblitz is "a *!%@$". In this public statement Fark will also apologize to the nations it has coerced into doing tech and donation deals with Fark, knowing full well it would make them Enemies of GOONS.

3. Fark must designate 5 nations of 5,000 NS or greater from the 15 top Fark nations to send all of their post-bills income to specified GOONS, to be delivered 3 times per month. The nations may be re-chosen on the 1st of each month, but all must be above 5,000 NS at the time they are chosen.

4. Shark Week is in effect for Fark nations.

5. Fark nations may not own nuclear weapons.

6. If Fark ever takes an offensive action against us, against any of our allies, or in any way that could be interpreted as "opposed to GOONS", they will be subject to full nuclear reprisal and all perma-ZIed. At this point, any sort of peace will be eternally off the table.

7. Daemon banned member shall be installed as Viceroy of Fark and given full access and admin rights to all Fark forums, as well as veto power over all governmental Fark actions. Actions capable of being vetoed include any laws, constitutional amendments, declarations of war and foreign treaties that he feels may directly affect the Goon Order or its allies

8. Fark nations may only do Donation Deals with Fark nations or GOONS nations unless given explicit permission by a member of the GOONS Closet.

III. Retribution

Any Fark nation found breaking this treaty will be ZIed without a trial. If the alliance in general defaults on this agreement every Fark nation will be subject to full nuclear annihilation, forever and always, with no hope for peace.

IV. Duration

This document remains in effect for one year from the time it takes effect. GOONS may, at their discretion, choose to decrease the time required for any individual term or terms.
[/quote]

GOONS 2.0
[quote]
Fark admits defeat to the combined forces of the New Pacific Order; The Last Remnants; Non Grata; Olympus; Boards Alliance Of Protectorate States; The Imperial Order; Nordreich; The Order Of The Paradox; Deck of International Card Experts; Goon Order of Oppression, Negligence, and Sadism (); Europa; and Open Source Alliance.

Federation of Armed Nations agrees to end hostilities against the combined forces of the New Pacific Order; The Phoenix Federation; NATO; and AOD Brigade.

Fark and FAN agree to not re-enter the ongoing global conflict on any front.

These terms become effective when GOONS and NPL agree to terms that end their conflict.
[/quote]

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330557468' post='2930828']
...the same old topic diversion tricks. You really can't teach an old mutt new tricks it would appear.
[/quote]
Dude, have you been on topic at all throughout this entire thing? I still don't get the allusion to our poor pedigree , but it hurts.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1330558454' post='2930837']
How's this:

GOONS 1.0


GOONS 2.0

[/quote]

The problem is the former terms are not possible in today's era.

I'd welcome you to encourage them to try, though.

[Monster]

Viceroy is still possible or they could make their own forums and make the alliance use them.

[IYIyTh]

Possible as in actually being able to force said terms without significant short-long term repercussion.

Most of us are all aware people can be dicks for being dicks sake for a short period time.


really? my my idols?

Edited March 1, 2012 by IYIyTh

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330559534' post='2930858']
The problem is the former terms are not possible in today's era.

I'd welcome you to encourage them to try, though.
[/quote]

Are you serious?

[Quinoa Rex]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330559534' post='2930858']
The problem is the former terms are not possible in today's era.

I'd welcome you to encourage them to try, though.
[/quote]
Aside from the viceroy term being difficult to enforce, you're either illiterate or just deluded.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1330558454' post='2930837']
How's this:

GOONS 1.0


GOONS 2.0
[/quote]

Of course when GOONS rerolled they wouldn't make the same treaty partners as before. That would actually have run counter to the spirit of Neutral Shoving. Instead, 2.0 followed the same [i]pattern[/i] of ally selection, as pointed out previously in the topic by Merrie Melodies. GOONS are just followers by nature, and they always seem to find someone to follow.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1330563672' post='2930889']
Of course when GOONS rerolled they wouldn't make the same treaty partners as before. That would actually have run counter to the spirit of Neutral Shoving. Instead, 2.0 followed the same [i]pattern[/i] of ally selection, as pointed out previously in the topic by Merrie Melodies. GOONS are just followers by nature, and they always seem to find someone to follow.
[/quote]
I don't understand how your post can be a reply to mine. I wasn't making even the slightest point about allies.

Edited March 1, 2012 by ktarthan

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1330563987' post='2930892']
I don't understand how your post can be a reply to mine. I wasn't making even the slightest point about allies.
[/quote]

You posted a treaty then a surrender to GOONS, both from the same alliance. I pointed out that which alliances you chose to make war with and which you chose to align with this time around is still reflective of GOONS 1.0 because it followed the same pattern. Do I need to elaborate, or did you just forget what you had posted or something?

[Vanilla Napalm]

It's adorable how this thread has devolved from a stated (albiet pointedly misguided) arguement to this little group catharsis over GOONS history, status and culture. Please, continue to clumsily spray, we'll all feel better for it in the long run.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1330565528' post='2930908']
You posted a treaty then a surrender to GOONS, both from the same alliance. I pointed out that which alliances you chose to make war with and which you chose to align with this time around is still reflective of GOONS 1.0 because it followed the same pattern. Do I need to elaborate, or did you just forget what you had posted or something?
[/quote]
Read again. They're both surrenders. I'm pointing out the difference between the terms that 1.0 gave out, and the terms that 2.0 gives out.

[mattski133]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330559534' post='2930858']
The problem is the former terms are not possible in today's era.

I'd welcome you to encourage them to try, though.
[/quote]

I think my government exercises a restraint on people like hasn't been seen until recently around here, not because they have to, but because they [i]prefer[/i] to.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1330565528' post='2930908']
You posted a treaty then a surrender to GOONS, both from the same alliance. I pointed out that which alliances you chose to make war with and which you chose to align with this time around is still reflective of GOONS 1.0 because it followed the same pattern. Do I need to elaborate, or did you just forget what you had posted or something?
[/quote]
I suppose I should be thankful our detractors make such sophomoric, boring allegations instead of something more concrete or useful. You can't seriously look at the treaty history of the old GOONS and our treaty history and think that we're a continuation or repeat of theirs.

[wes the wise]

Wow this is a pretty awesome post. We don't get to read reasonable, inciteful, posts like this on the OWF very often do we? GOONS, how do you feel about MONGOLS formally declaring war on you? Do you blame them?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='wes the wise' timestamp='1330573639' post='2930961']
Wow this is a pretty awesome post. We don't get to read reasonable, inciteful, posts like this on the OWF very often do we? GOONS, how do you feel about MONGOLS formally declaring war on you? Do you blame them?
[/quote]
I feel they should have posted a RoW, not a DoW, if anything. I also feel they'd probably have a lot more sympathy if they weren't some of the worst communicators on bob.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1330560130' post='2930868']
Are you serious?
[/quote]




Yes. Holy Farkistan terms =/= possible in this day and age. Just wouldn't work out.

These Lunar varieties are free to try.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330576442' post='2930987']
Yes. Holy Farkistan terms =/= possible in this day and age. Just wouldn't work out.

These Lunar varieties are free to try.
[/quote]

Agreed, in the day people are threatening perma warring just over the word "defeat"; how do you think those terms would go down? As a matter of fact someone powerful needs to try it, just because it'd be fun to watch.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Omniscient1

[wes the wise]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1330573831' post='2930965']
I feel they should have posted a RoW, not a DoW, if anything. I also feel they'd probably have a lot more sympathy if they weren't some of the worst communicators on bob.
[/quote]Did you give them notice before you raided them?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1330548978' post='2930753']
Do you have an example in which they went to war while the outcome wasn't certain? Overall it doesn't matter, because I've spoken about this situation over and over again and I always get the same answers.
[/quote]
I can give you a vague answer that won't really help. I can't think of any possible group that we'd have any reason to fight where we probably couldn't win. Essentially, all the people who oppose us have much weaker political and military strength. Even when they form giant coalitions of normally unaligned alliances to try and take us down. In other words, you say we're weak or cowardly because we only fight in wars we know we can win. But there haven't been any wars we don't know we can win.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL11.jpg[/img]