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Schattenmann

Let a goon talk long enough . . .

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. . . and he's sure to do your job for you.

Today, GOONS stands at war with MONGOLS following the aiding of a GOONS raid target by a few Mongols nations.
It is the position of GOONS that this Mongols aid constitutes "war aid" and is an act of war. Indeed, it is commonly held that aiding an alliance at war is an act of war. But is it commonly held that a techraid is an alliance war, or that aiding a techraid victim is an act of war against the raider, or more seriously against the raider's alliance? Weighty questions, indeed.

We know that the most common position of alliances that allow raiding is that it is an at-your-own-risk activity. Why is that? Precisely because the raiding nation is engaging in a risky behavior for personal gain rather than in an alliance-level activity for alliance gain. It is, simply, a gamble: You win some, you lose some. Maybe the victim nukes you, maybe the victim is a NONE sleeper, maybe the victim is protected, or maybe the victim happens to have the skills to make your intended raid a real nation-nation war.

To mitigate these risks, most raiders coordinate with alliance mates. But the alliance itself is still off the hook because at the end of the day they have no commitment to blow alliance resources on personal screwups. True, there are a very few alliances whose governments will get involved if things go sour; at a certain point the alliance has to decide at what point the losses on an individual level begin to become alliance-level losses.

But the central tenet, regardless of stance on at-risk or not, of raiding has always been that raids are [i]different [/i]than wars; in fact, that raids are [i]not [/i]wars. We need look only as far as the Athens-Knights of Ni! episode where Athens opted to call their alliance-scale attack on KoN a "raid" rather than a war and option to not post a declaration of war. More recently, Non Grata pulled the same stunt with AGW Overlords, and "raided" rather than "declared war upon" AGWO, an alliance of more than 20 nations and 2,000,000 NS. In each case, the attacking alliance had all the power and clout to outright declare war on the targets, but [s]opted[/s], nay, refused to acknowledge that the raids were wars, and insisted upon referring to their wars as raids.

And so we come to the instance of aid by MONGOLS to a GOONS raid target, which GOONS claims to be war aid, an act of war against GOONS. For this position to be true, the battles between the GOONS raiders and the target must be a "war," a definition that has been vehemently argued against by raiders for [u]years[/u]--a distinction that GOONS has made--but which does not suit GOONS [i]today[/i].

Witness, dear reader:
[b]Vanilla Napalm[/b] [snapback]2929614[/snapback]
"If that is the case, you're misinterpretting the circumstances as well as not paying attention to what i said to the other guy. We are not 'bailing anyone out', we're taking exception to a group [b]aiding something we're at war with.[/b] The circumstances in which the war was initiated are entirely irrelevent to our decision vis-a-vis MONGOLS."

[b]ktarthan[/b] [snapback]2929627[/snapback]
"GOONS is not defending its members from the raided nation. They're defending its members from a third party intentionally taking action that could cause harm to said members. In my eyes [b]war aid is just as aggressive an action as declaring actual wars.[/b]"

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1330396069' post='2929648']
There were three raiders. But anyway, it's not about if MONGOLS poses a threat. Do you think we believed NPL posed a threat when they were recruiting our raid targets? It's about policy and principle. It's about not letting people step on our alliance. And there's no way we're going to send the message that you can aid [b]people we're at war with[/b] and get away with it.

Obviously on some level you at least begrudgingly accept raids. The [b]disconnect seems to be that you don't consider a raid a war.[/b] For that reason you believe it's okay for people to aid people you're raiding and do nothing about it. That's fine if that's your policy, but [b]we happily disagree.[/b] I'm curious if this extends to all wars or just raids. [b]And what, exactly, separates the two.[/b]

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1330395945' post='2929646']
You say you don't allow "war-aid" to those "we" are at war with. [b]Does that mean that every GOONS raid is considered to be an alliance-wide war against the target?[/b][/quote]
[b]Yes[/b], because we usually raid in packs anyway, and anyone we raid is solo or in a small AA. And if we're raiding one we'll probably raid them all. [b]I fail to see where the line between raid and war is.[/b] Unless you're suggesting we just [b]go around raiding 25+ nation AAs for fun. Because I can assure you if we did, they'd consider it an alliance war. Are you saying you think it'd be okay for us to raid anyone we wanted if we just don't call it an alliance war?[/b][/quote]

[b]Beefspari[/b] [snapback]2929654[/snapback]
"We don't share the same views on raid vs war as you and that's all there is to it. [b]A raid is a war, and is held to the same standards as any war.[/b] Which includes third parties not getting involved."

[b]Sardonic[/b] [snapback]2929668[/snapback]
"It's very simple. Another alliance [b]aided somebody at war[/b] with one of our members. That the conflict between the initial nations was a raid is irrelevant. There is nothing 'pissweak' about pushing an alliance's sovereignty to the fullest extent, and defending it with all available force. All threats to the alliance will be dealt with. I see you're obviously too set on the old, outdated ways, so I'll leave you to it, and advise my fellows to do the same."

The final word from Sardonic, [i]avant garde[/i] Pilot of GOONS and advocate of the new definition of techraids as alliance wars.

But, dear reader, what is the challenge that sparks this response?

[quote name='Beefspari' date='27 February 2012 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1330396970' post='2929661']
[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396855' post='2929659']
A raid is a war when it suits you for it to be so.
[/quote]
[b]Historically, when has GOONs made a distinction between a raid and a war?[/b] As I said we usually raid in packs. And if one of our people messes up and raids someone inappropriately, people come to GOONs gov. Because it's an alliance issue. And always has been. Everything you're saying you're pulling from literally nowhere.[/quote]
When, indeed? When. indeed.

To answer Beefspari's audacious question we need not turn so far back in time as the distinction itself extends. No, we need only turn back 15 pages of time. It's February 12, 2012, and Non Grata has "mass-raided" AGW Overlords, a war to which I previously alluded. The objections have come in, and Zoomzoomzoom of Non Grata laments:
[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1329071967' post='2919083']
I can't believe people are still arguing that this is some sort of war.

That is your lie Ender. [b]It is not a war. It is called a tech raid.

You're completely dense if you can't differentiate between the two.[/b]
[/quote]

The ever-pithy Schattenmann wastes no time in his reply:

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1329073023' post='2919091']
OH WELL I'M GLAD WE CLEARED THAT UP

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/kBRP1.png[/IMG]
[/quote]

Ever the loyal allies to Non Grata in deed and in word, ever the invested raiders, GOONS wades into the fray:
[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1329075543' post='2919109']
What is wrong with you people? Are you seriously making the 'declare war' button argument? If that argument held weight, [b]nothing would be considered a tech raid, when obviously there are.[/b]
P=press war button, Q = tech raid, R = war.
P->Q
P->R
Thus, (P does not imply R and only R)
[b]Therefore unless you seriously think there is no such thing as a tech raid, please shut up.[/b]
[/quote] [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1329081199' post='2919164']
I'm not sure why but I expect better from some of you. [b]Ultimately it's clear that NG did not conduct [i]alliance warfare[/i] here - no amount of spinning or ignoring of the facts makes this an organized effort to punish/incapacitate/neutralize an enemy.[/b] [b]A tech-raid - an act carried out for the express purpose of profiting[/b] - is war, sure (duh), [b]it's not alliance warfare[/b] though, and this is [b]apparently the [i]distinction[/i][/b] that's being missed or ignored.[/quote]

The answer, my dear Beefspari, appears to be "two weeks ago."

And that is no surprise, because if you let a goon talk long enough, he'll eventually do the heavy-lifting for you. Or, in the words of Tyga and Trimm:
[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1330396855' post='2929659']
A raid is a war when it suits you for it to be so.
[/quote][quote name='trimm' timestamp='1330397328' post='2929671']
Who needs to be consistent when you can get away with being a bully instead?
[/quote]

And so we come once more to the criss-crossing arguments of GOONS, the shifting sands, the mobile goalposts.

Edited by Schattenmann

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This is an excellent post. It really is. I just wanted you to see that before the jerk brigade comes in here and starts calling you crazy for daring to call them out.

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[quote name='r00tn00b' timestamp='1330267274' post='2928510']
You can't dispute their argument with facts, that not fair.
[/quote]

Huh. I guess the OP was right.

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Do something about it...oh...wait...

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Nice shatt, very nice.

FAKE EDIT: In before the character assassination, I mean Doomhouse, posters pop in.

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[quote name='Velocity111' timestamp='1330404229' post='2929739']
GOONS is not NG, GOONS charter is not NG charter. Anything else?
[/quote]

How about the fact that Sardonic specifically notes a difference between a tech raid and a war, and in fact insults anyone attempting to equate the two?

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+1 power up for Schatt

Raiding alliances need to be consistent, that lack has given Schatt his opening here.

All tech raids are wars, all wars are tech raids, it really is simple.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330404706' post='2929744']
Poor Beefspari.

[img]http://i41.tinypic.com/2093ome.png[/img]
[/quote]
I have to be honest, this is one of my favorites from you so far.

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[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1330404764' post='2929745']
I have to be honest, this is one of my favorites from you so far.
[/quote]

I made it 3 or 4 years ago but still is valid as ever.

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[quote name='Velocity111' timestamp='1330404229' post='2929739']
GOONS is not NG, GOONS charter is not NG charter. Anything else?
[/quote]

Charter: Because charter.

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Be wary guys. Logic like this is always fodder for those who don't understand logic.


By the by, great post.

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[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1330404540' post='2929742']
+1 power up for Schatt

Raiding alliances need to be consistent, that lack has given Schatt his opening here.

All tech raids are wars, all wars are tech raids, it really is simple.
[/quote]

Honestly, I agree.

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[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1330406910' post='2929773']
Eh, dude was part of \m/. T'was in the charter.
[/quote]

And since when \m/ respected their own charter?

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[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1330406910' post='2929773']
Eh, dude was part of \m/. T'was in the charter.
[/quote]

I wrote the damn thing, even.


[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330406995' post='2929774']
And since when \m/ respected their own charter?
[/quote]

Oh shut up. Please.

Edited by Emperor Marx

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330406995' post='2929774']
And since when \m/ respected their own charter?
[/quote]
Since you asked, it was about the same time you stopped respecting allies.

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While I do commend and appreciate the multiple sick burns, I'd prefer to hear about how evil the OP is for his logical conclusion(s).

Edited by IYIyTh

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I can't say I really get why people feel the need to push the "raid is not a war" line to begin with honestly.

Hey, guys? AlmightyGrub isn't running NpO anymore, and even if he were NpO can't roll you for raiding.

Well... they could [i]try[/i], it'd just end incredibly poorly for them. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's even less need for the !@#$%^&* than there was before. We're bloody thieves, there's not really any way to get around it regardless of the mental gymnastics. Hell, you might as well be proud of it instead of hiding behind such a terrible line.

Edited by Aurion

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[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1330408109' post='2929786']
I can't say I really get why people feel the need to push the "raid is not a war" line to begin with honestly.

Hey, guys? AlmightyGrub isn't running NpO anymore, and even if he were NpO can't roll you for raiding.

Well... they could [i]try[/i], it'd just end incredibly poorly for them. I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's even less need for the !@#$%^&* than there was before. We're bloody thieves, there's not really any way to get around it regardless of the mental gymnastics. Hell, you might as well be proud of it instead of hiding behind such a terrible line.
[/quote]
Cost ++ post here gentlemen. Embrace your evil pirating ways.
Diskord would be proud.

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[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1330407004' post='2929775']
Oh shut up. Please.
[/quote]

I'll take it as a "never". Also, pro-tip: "shut up" replies never work and just make you looks like someone who hasn't anything valid to say.

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