DoW Notification

[Bob Janova]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1328974241' post='2918372']
They are in wars. This isn't a war doe. It's a raid. Come on, Bob.
[/quote]
When you declare war on 12 nations of an alliance which is as large as 30 members, it's a war, whether you post a DoW or not. If we declared 12 wars on Non Grata right now you can bet they'd call it a war.

[quote]Um, you're on the amoral side as well. You are currently facilitating a prolonged conflict based on no traditional CB with a heavy reps demand.[/quote]
"You betrayed our trust, lied to us and directly caused us to lose a war and pay several hundred thousand tech" is absolutely fine as a 'traditional CB'. You can argue about whether it's right to hold onto it for so long and whether Polar has done anything to deserve it [i]right now[/i], but to put that in the same category as attacking an alliance just to take their stuff is ridiculous.

[Believland]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328977120' post='2918388']
When you declare war on 12 nations of an alliance which is as large as 30 members, it's a war, whether you post a DoW or not. If we declared 12 wars on Non Grata right now you can bet they'd call it a war.
[/quote]

Hardly. Non Grata is no AGW Overlords. As far as I'm aware, NG's forums are still up. AGW is essentially a defunct alliance, with no formal disbandment.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328973048' post='2918362']
Yeah, obviously I didn't [i]really[/i] expect PB to show any class. There aren't enough quality alliances in it to actually stand up for something. When we were working on it in VE I had hopes for FOK and Umbrella, but both have clearly shown their hand as being on the amoral side since then.


I thought you guys were in the 'non-nuclear war is for wusses' camp. I guess you're just self-serving hypocrites.
[/quote]
One thing: as an alliance, we're not involved. Tim did this of his own accord, while knowing it was against our techraid policy. We deal with that internally.

Whatever the rest of PB does or doesn't do in this matter, is up to them.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328977120' post='2918388']
"You betrayed our trust, lied to us and directly caused us to lose a war and pay several hundred thousand tech" is absolutely fine as a 'traditional CB'. You can argue about whether it's right to hold onto it for so long and whether Polar has done anything to deserve it [i]right now[/i], but to put that in the same category as attacking an alliance just to take their stuff is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Non Grata helps clear the room so you can get revenge on Polaris and you berate them almost immediately thereafter, even as you keep your boot to Polar's throat and demand substantial reparations. Whether Polaris deserves such treatment or not (sure, why not) is irrelevant. You're being classless with your attempt to portray yourself as the world's moral compass.

[enderland]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328979015' post='2918399']
Non Grata helps clear the room so you can get revenge on Polaris and you berate them almost immediately thereafter, even as you keep your boot to Polar's throat and demand substantial reparations. Whether Polaris deserves such treatment or not (sure, why not) is irrelevant. You're being classless with your attempt to portray yourself as the world's moral compass.
[/quote]

How is this relevant to this thread?

[White Chocolate]

This should be entertaining.

I don't see AGW Overlords being on anyone who knows them list of "easy" raid targets. If you want a regular war - okay - but they are not a group that comes to mind when thinking of a raid.

If you wanted to hit them, probably should have just declared a traditional war on this one Non-Grata.

Edited February 11, 2012 by White Chocolate

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328977120' post='2918388']
When you declare war on 12 nations of an alliance which is as large as 30 members, it's a war, whether you post a DoW or not. If we declared 12 wars on Non Grata right now you can bet they'd call it a war.

"You betrayed our trust, lied to us and directly caused us to lose a war and pay several hundred thousand tech" is absolutely fine as a 'traditional CB'. You can argue about whether it's right to hold onto it for so long and whether Polar has done anything to deserve it [i]right now[/i], but to put that in the same category as attacking an alliance just to take their stuff is ridiculous.
[/quote]
I'll put on my fancy vestments and agree with Bob.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328979015' post='2918399']
Non Grata helps clear the room so you can get revenge on Polaris and you berate them almost immediately thereafter, even as you keep your boot to Polar's throat and demand substantial reparations. Whether Polaris deserves such treatment or not (sure, why not) is irrelevant. You're being classless with your attempt to portray yourself as the world's moral compass.
[/quote]
Moralist is a term made up by people like you to denigrate anyone that happens to have a differing opinion, not a real thing. You demonstrate the meaninglessness of the term within your very post by bringing up Grämlins' current position in ongoing affairs (and thanks for alleviating me of [i]that [/i]responsibility for once and by the way, I was called a lunatic for predicting exactly what they'd be up to when PF was signed: you're all welcome).
The fact of the matter though, is that Grämlins does have its ethics, and anyone that wants to deal with them to get allllll that infra behind them for their grimy escapades knows going in that Grälins has that particular baggage, Non Grata included. Grälins on the other hand know that if they want all those goose-stepping numbskulls, they sometimes have to shake some dirty hands. NG is it's own alliance and it has some very intelligent people, whatever they did to help TOP & PF, they did it of their own volition. Grämlins is its own alliance, and whatever Non Grata did for them doesn't bind Grämlins hands--or tongues for that matter. The suggestion that Grämlins must sit down and shut up is humorous.

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1328979015' post='2918399']
Non Grata helps clear the room so you can get revenge on Polaris and you berate them almost immediately thereafter, even as you keep your boot to Polar's throat and demand substantial reparations. Whether Polaris deserves such treatment or not (sure, why not) is irrelevant. You're being classless with your attempt to portray yourself as the world's moral compass.
[/quote]

You can't seriously think this is going to be your next big thing, right?

[trimm]

There isn't a soul in MK who has any moral standing to be talking to anyone about class.

[Bob Janova]

Ardus: i) I'm not in an alliance that's attacking Polar or demanding anything, and ii) even if I were, the fact that NG helped our side in the war is entirely irrelevant to the fact they're clearly in the wrong now.

As Schatt says, in this age of coalition warfare, if you want to win anything you have to fight alongside people who aren't your natural allies. In this last war that included the likes of NPO and Invicta for us, and other alliances for TOP. That doesn't make them entirely immune to criticism when they do something like this.

And iii) I'm not trying to portray myself as anything, if people choose to take moral compass readings off me that's their own business. I didn't even start this thread.

[Spaarlaamp]

I heard a rumor that AGWO will be forced to pay reps if they nuke.

[fidpicker]

I have fallen into the pay bills, improvement swap, and collect taxes rut with some tech deals in between. I was not happy to see this little tech raid when I logged in today, and was even more upset when I retaliated and didn't plan it at all. My war skills are obviously a little rusty since I haven’t joined in on the TE fun for a while now.
Anyway, I don't think I am going to roll over and just give my tech away. This may be just what AGW needed. War declared by a much larger alliance with significantly larger nations and higher numbers, I think we need to decrease their nation strength a bit. Anyone else out there with me? Seems to me if they could fight they wouldn’t be “raiding” someone they thought would be such easy targets. I would find it hard to be proud of a battle I won when the other nation was sleeping and 1/3rd my size. But I would take the free tech all the same.

[Seerow]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1328987378' post='2918495']
There isn't a soul in MK who has any moral standing to be talking to anyone about class.
[/quote]

Who exactly are you?

MK is class incarnate. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

NG are more than happy to make MK look good in comparison.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Spaarlaamp' timestamp='1328989050' post='2918506']
I heard a rumor that AGWO will be forced to pay reps if they nuke.
[/quote]
For NG's sake, that had better be just a rumor. Otherwise it crosses the grounds from a little highway robbery into extortionate warmongering.

Even most raiding alliances have clauses that say if you bite off more than you can chew don't complain or run for help. Involving the rest of your alliance members to put down resistance would make it a defacto war, in which you would be hard pressed to find a CB for the cause of aggression.

Mass raiding is questionable enough, but to say "take the raid and if you fight back we will punish you" will cause quite a backlash as the only argument for that stance is a "might makes right" one.

And even the alliances with the biggest steel balls do well to place them in a velvet sack to mask that fundamental "might makes right" truth with civility.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1328989829' post='2918513']
For NG's sake, that had better be just a rumor. Otherwise it crosses the grounds from a little highway robbery into extortionate warmongering.

Even most raiding alliances have clauses that say if you bite off more than you can chew don't complain or run for help. Involving the rest of your alliance members to put down resistance would make it a defacto war, in which you would be hard pressed to find a CB for the cause of aggression.

Mass raiding is questionable enough, but to say "take the raid and if you fight back we will punish you" will cause quite a backlash as the only argument for that stance is a "might makes right" one.

And even the alliances with the biggest steel balls do well to place them in a velvet sack to mask that fundamental "might makes right" truth with civility.
[/quote]


You certainly write a lot for a comment that had no basis whatsoever.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1328990109' post='2918515']
You certainly write a lot for a comment that had no basis whatsoever.
[/quote]

/shrug

I'm on a smoke break. He posted a rumor, I posted my thoughts on that rumor. Pretty much standard usage of a forum.

[enderland]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1328990109' post='2918515']
You certainly write a lot for a comment that had no basis whatsoever.
[/quote]

You know, you could have just told him "we're not taking extortion if they nuke" if you are not planning on doing so.

[MrChaos]

I don't get it. Non Grata is tech raiding , a third party posts a DoW when neither alliance has done so. While 30 may be a bit steep lets let the alliances involved post about this if it's going to be a DoW because it doesn't really need to be done by a third party.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='enderland' timestamp='1328991046' post='2918519']
You know, you could have just told him "we're not taking extortion if they nuke" if you are not planning on doing so.
[/quote]

What does "no basis' mean to you?

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='enderland' timestamp='1328991046' post='2918519']
You know, you could have just told him "we're not taking extortion if they nuke" if you are not planning on doing so.[/quote]
That certainly would have been clearer, but, meh, it wouldn't be this particularly lovely mode of communication if there wasn't a little bit of smarmy-ness involved:
[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1328991741' post='2918535']
What does "no basis' mean to you?[/quote]
I wouldn't bother responding to that, enderland, they've just entered into actions without an entirely predictable outcome, so it's natural that their hackles are up a big and quick to attack and defend.

That was about as nice a denial as could be expected.

Ol dude posted a rumor (along with that smiley face), which is nothing more than a speculative hypothesis, probably bent on being funny, and as it caught my imagination, I followed it to a reasonable conclusion.

Anyway, smoke break's over, good luck, blah blah blah.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Artigo]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1328992248' post='2918546']
That certainly would have been clearer, but, meh, it wouldn't be this particularly lovely mode of communication if there wasn't a little bit of smarmy-ness involved:

I wouldn't bother responding to that, enderland, they've just entered into actions without an entirely predictable outcome, so it's natural that their hackles are up a big and quick to attack and defend.

That was about as nice a denial as could be expected.

Ol dude posted a rumor (along with that smiley face), which is nothing more than a speculative hypothesis, probably bent on being funny, and as it caught my imagination, I followed it to a reasonable conclusion.

Anyway, smoke break's over, good luck, blah blah blah.
[/quote]

We raid, they nuked, were nuking back. Sparta obviously has no control over their MDP partner otherwise they're completely ignoring them or don't know the $%&@ is going on.

[Ardus]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1328984453' post='2918467']
You can't seriously think this is going to be your next big thing, right?
[/quote]

I don't have a next "big thing", Myth. I'm happily retired. And if I did have a "big thing", I wouldn't unveil it in a handful of sentences here. It'd be in the form of a wall of text on somebody's embassy.

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1328987378' post='2918495']
There isn't a soul in MK who has any moral standing to be talking to anyone about class.
[/quote]

I'm the living embodiment of class. Just ask Schatt, he'll vouch for me.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1328987946' post='2918501']
Ardus: i) I'm not in an alliance that's attacking Polar or demanding anything, and ii) even if I were, the fact that NG helped our side in the war is entirely irrelevant to the fact they're clearly in the wrong now.

As Schatt says, in this age of coalition warfare, if you want to win anything you have to fight alongside people who aren't your natural allies. In this last war that included the likes of NPO and Invicta for us, and other alliances for TOP. That doesn't make them entirely immune to criticism when they do something like this.

And iii) I'm not trying to portray myself as anything, if people choose to take moral compass readings off me that's their own business. I didn't even start this thread.
[/quote]

However, you are implicitly supporting any demands levied against Polar via your treaty with Paradoxia. Even my extraordinary capabilities for doublethink fail my attempts to reconcile (1) opposition to tech raiding and (2) supporting, explicitly or implicitly, brutal term demands. That's why I don't split the difference and instead support all of it.

Allow me to raise a question to you: what's the difference between raiding 30 unaffiliated people and 30 affiliated, but unconnected people? The only difference I see is that the affiliated individuals are more likely to present coordinated resistance. In that sense, it's more fair for Non Grata to raid 30 affiliated people, who may well defend themselves in a competent manner, than 30 people floating about on "none," who never have a chance. I'm not settled on the question yet, but it is an amusing and relevant thought.

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1328989674' post='2918509']
NG are more than happy to make MK look good in comparison.
[/quote]

MK is ugly, but NG is [b]ugly ugly[/b].

[kriekfreak]

When someone told me Gramlins were no longer moralist whiny !@#$bags I believed him even though I was under the impression they still were. Sadly, I was right all along.

[Systemfailure]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1328998021' post='2918601']
When someone told me Gramlins were no longer moralist whiny !@#$bags I believed him even though I was under the impression they still were. Sadly, I was right all along.
[/quote]
Dont hate the player hate the game
:thuglife: