FARK/FAN vs NPO up to date

[wickedj]

so, Brehon derp'd? No shock there...

edit:
[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1326835327' post='2901670']
I really cannot find sympathy for those who will not surrender if they have to admit defeat, or live by a no re-entry clause.

GATO veterans who survived the GATO-1v war would have killed for those terms. Instead we got peace mode=pzi, nuke=pzi, and a goddamn viceroy to secure peace.

Jesus, just man up and admit you lost, what is so goddamn hard about that?
[/quote]
You know who ELSE wouldve loved these terms? Neutral shoving GOONS, Fark in the holy war, FAN in VietFAN, hell i bet if you went to Polar and offered this they would jump all over it

Edited January 17, 2012 by wickedj

[Gumpper]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326834972' post='2901667']
Which part of FAN and Fark's conduct was immature, precisely?


Actually the plans were up to Mary's standards until at some point Pacific decided they didn't want them any more, and they used that as a cop out. Apparently January 14th was when the offer on the terms expired -- FAN and Fark had no way of knowing this, of course, so Pacific made up some lame excuse for withdrawing.


[/quote]
1. Did you actually read the logs?
2. Do you have any evidence to support your claims or are you just doing your classic blowing smoke out your butt?
3: In response to this quote

[quote]Which part of FAN and Fark's conduct was immature, precisely?[/quote]

a. Didn't accept the easy terms
b. Are ridiculously attributing NPL's problems as NPO's fault
c. Declared war (somewhat stupidly in the first place) and now are attempting to spin it as NPO is Ebil... again...

Need I go on?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Gumpper

[Letum]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326834972' post='2901667']
Which part of FAN and Fark's conduct was immature, precisely?
[/quote]

All the parts between treating an admission of defeat as something evil, decrying it as "lust for power", and pledging eternal war over it.

[quote]
Brehon himself said that it wasn't the case that they were unacceptable to Mary [i]at the start[/i].
[/quote]

[quote]
Prior to doing so I spoke with Emperor Mary to set in my mind the goal and ground (if any) there was to give. [b]Unfortunately I misunderstood.[/b]
[/quote]

Doitzel, I know you're smart enough to do basic reading. Seriously man.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Letum

[Sephiroth]

I don't want to read all those logs, but if the offer is still there for FAN/Fark to get peace by just admitting defeat with no reps, I think they should take it. Good luck to all parties involved in closing up this front.

[Letum]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1326835901' post='2901680']
I don't want to read all those logs, but if the offer is still there for FAN/Fark to get peace by just admitting defeat with no reps, I think they should take it.
[/quote]

It's there until Wednesday.

[Stelios]

[quote name='Gumpper' timestamp='1326834885' post='2901666']
I live to serve
[/quote]
o/

one big headache, hope its over soon

[Timberland]

[quote][20:56] <tf905[Fark]> TOP/IRON hit Polar first. For no legitimate reason whatsoever.[/quote]

This statement is pretty funny.

TOP/IRON hit your ally and you don't defend them but instead attack someone else and then cry when you activate a boat load of defensive treaties. If you don't know thats how treaties work in CN. When someone attacks your MDP partner or above, you're suppose to defend them.

also if FARK would read the OWF sometimes they would known that Polar screwed over not just TOP and IRON but a whole coalition in BPW and its the reason why almost EVERYONE on planet bob wanted them dead. If backstabbing an alliance the way Polar did to TOP/IRON and others isn't a CB then call in the CN CB gods to inform me what a real CB is. To most that has been the most valid CB we've had in a long time in CN

Edited January 17, 2012 by Timberland

[smurthwaite]

[quote name='Gumpper' timestamp='1326835706' post='2901677']
1. Did you actually read the logs?
2. Do you have any evidence to support your claims or are you just doing your classic blowing smoke out your butt?
3: In response to this quote



a. Didn't accept the easy terms
b. Are ridiculously attributing NPL's problems as NPO's fault
c. Declared war (somewhat stupidly in the first place) and now are attempting to spin it as NPO is Ebil... again...

Need I go on?
[/quote]


As a lowly member of NPL's "low government" I would like to point out two things:
1) NPL in no way holds NPO at fault of "NPL's problems." The fault of those clearly lie with alliances who accept reps and then declare a war anyway.
2) NPL will not way seek peace until DH peaces out with our allies in FARK.

Please note, and please don't confuse this, NPO and FARK are not the same as DH and FARK, as far as NPL is concerned.

Thank you.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1326835327' post='2901670']
I really cannot find sympathy for those who will not surrender if they have to admit defeat, or live by a no re-entry clause.

GATO veterans who survived the GATO-1v war would have killed for those terms. Instead we got peace mode=pzi, nuke=pzi, and a goddamn viceroy to secure peace.

Jesus, just man up and admit you lost, what is so goddamn hard about that?
[/quote]
NPO once put NAAC under Viceroyalty for "breathing their air". I fail to see the relevance to this situation, but FAN and Fark should hasten to pay crushing reps because of it!


[quote name='Gumpper' timestamp='1326835706' post='2901677']
1. Did you actually read the logs?
2. Do you have any evidence to support your claims or are you just doing your classic blowing smoke out your butt?
3: In response to this quote



a. Didn't accept the easy terms
b. Are ridiculously attributing NPL's problems as NPO's fault
c. Declared war (somewhat stupidly in the first place) and now are attempting to spin it as NPO is Ebil... again...

Need I go on?
[/quote]
1. Yes
2. Which claims specifically? It's all in the OP. I even quoted it for you. Brehon says in the OP that Pacific withdrew from terms because they thought they were being toyed with. The reason given to Fark and FAN for their withdrawing from terms was because Brehon "made a mistake" in thinking he had his superior's assent.

[quote]We have now arrived at January 14th, 16 days after our initial "admit defeat, no re-entry, cease hostilities" and 3 days after we basically gave them terms they suggested (I know.. what was I thinking). Our gov had enough and we were being taken advantage of. Our past and even our present was being used to play games in such a flippant manner we had no choice but to end that kind of bs. [b]When the Emperor let me know to take care of it, see what they want and make it happen, it didn't me go back on her word. I admitted my error personally[/b] and directly with TF905 (he was the first I could find) and re-delivered the original [terms].[/quote]

There it is again.
3. I was talking about their conduct in the peace negotiations. Just because you don't agree with their decision does not mean it is "immature and foolish". If you're going to express support for alliances that declare war on other alliances for no tangible reason then you accept the repercussions of that.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326835782' post='2901678']
All the parts between treating an admission of defeat as something evil, decrying it as "lust for power", and pledging eternal war over it.
[/quote]
I do not see those words in these logs, though I admit I may have skimmed over them.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326835782' post='2901678']
Doitzel, I know you're smart enough to do basic reading. Seriously man.
[/quote]
Which contradicts what I quoted above.

Or are you really going to tell me that for three days Mary was unaware that Brehon offered these terms? I don't buy it, sorry.

[Letum]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326836699' post='2901695']
Which contradicts what I quoted above.

Or are you really going to tell me that for three days Mary was unaware that Brehon offered these terms? I don't buy it, sorry.
[/quote]

If two parts of the same text seem to contradict each other, then it's probably a sign you're not interpreting one of them properly. But if it's not worded well enough for you, I will elaborate on the sequence of events here: The initial offer was made on the spot under the belief it would be acceptable. The terms were discussed on our side after the offer was made, and were not approved. Brehon went to personally apologize to the other side for the confusion.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326836699' post='2901695']
NPO once put NAAC under Viceroyalty for "breathing their air". I fail to see the relevance to this situation, but FAN and Fark should hasten to pay crushing reps because of it!
[/quote]
Are you really going to handwave away the fact that while Brehon made a mistake, the initial offer NPO made is being more generous than many, many alliances would have given, ourselves included? I get that you want to focus on Brehon's mistake to do maximum political damage to NPO (good luck with that, nobody is buying it), but you should probably stop before you lose what little credibility you have left from your halcyon days.

[Brehon]

Actually it was 2 days, then a full day of us discussing it. I am sure everything at Polar is instant... yup POSITIVE of that.

The terms were pulled because they were not up to Mary. Could we have said, we will keep up with this... no, we had enough, they had stalled enough. I know everything must be mutually exclusive but that is not reality.

[Schattenmann]

Theeee.....the way this is served up to me is insulting. I feel that my intelligence is being insulted.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326829587' post='2901601']
We have now arrived at January 14th, 16 days after our initial "admit defeat, no re-entry, cease hostilities" and 3 days after we basically gave them terms they suggested (I know.. what was I thinking). Our gov had enough and we were being taken advantage of. Our past and even our present was being used to play games in such a flippant manner we had no choice but to end that kind of bs. When the Emperor let me know to take care of it, see what they want and make it happen, it didn't me go back on her word. I admitted my error personally and directly with TF905 (he was the first I could find) and re-delivered the original EXTREMELY LIGHT but logical terms:

I am guilty of trying to be nice, I readily admit that. For the long history of FAN and NPO, I actually get them and they were the motivation behind various things. Guilt complex some will call it, yet guilt isn't what I felt. Pity would be more accurate. Here is FAN, able to survive two years of being held down. They got their revenge a year ago and they feel they need to do more. I felt (and still feel) its best to let it just go away, the problem is they are allowing the exact same benefit I have given FAN to extend to FARK. FARK who had issues with NPO years ago then NOTHING and somehow they are the same. Taking this line of thought, I had a question to ask Jack Tarr:[/quote]
You're not guilty of being too nice; you're guilty of negotiating in bad faith and/or going off the reservation. This idea that because FAN and Fark are getting wrecked they're the only ones that need peace and thus should be kissing your feet for giving them a light offer is flawed. You are also taking damage, and if this gets ugly NPO knows where it will go: millions down the tube and lost tech realizations to FAN/Fark spies, withering guerrilla attacks, etc etc: another viet-era for NPO. NPO might lose less NS due to a prolonged war, but NPO has just as much incentive to get this over with and get it over with yesterday. That's why the offer is light.
What you're guilty of is negotiating a peace that was perfectly acceptable and accepted by Fark and FAN negotiators who you [b][i]knew [/i][/b]have to take any deal to their constituents, losing your cool in [i][b]Sparta [/b][/i]talks, and storming out here onto the OWF to take it out on FAN and Fark.
You lied to all of us in that act and in that thread.


[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326829587' post='2901601']You can't say there was an agreement. An offer was made, you never accepted you were working on it. You waited 12 days to answer our first VERY generous offer. Then for basically 4 days you were "working on" the proposed terms.[/quote]
That is how democratic alliances work. That's why CoJ isn't a democracy and it's why NPO isn't a democracy. Don't play dumb. The offer you made was clearly acceptable and accepted by both Fark and FAN's negotiators.
[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326829587' post='2901601']Then when they are pulled (due to my error or not, you are right they were pulled) you cried foul about how we should stick to an agreement.[/quote]
It was foul.

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326829587' post='2901601']Tomorrow the offer expires and I can tell you, it will get worse. This is not a threat, this is the next logical step considering your infantile actions and reactions to a free pass. You have shown that being nice to you does not net results, no matter how sincere. You assumed too much from start to finish. I suggest you snap out of petulance and unscrew yourselves.
[/quote]
This situation is a result of your mistakes. This threat and this thread are nothing more than you blameshifting to cover your own ass and to play magnanimous for the OWF. It's transparent.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326833721' post='2901648']
Actually, no. That is a frustrated coalition having to put up with way too much immaturity and foolishness
[/quote]
If you don't like peace negotiations, then don't start or involve yourself in TOP's wars of aggression in the future.

[quote name='Elegarth' timestamp='1326834067' post='2901659']
This is all FAN pulling their old time "baw baw I am so the victim" crap and dragging FARK in it... What is it that FAN wants?[/quote]
FAN very obviously wants to deal with an NPO that isn't jerking them around. I don't think that's "bawing"

[quote name='Elegarth' timestamp='1326834067' post='2901659']Another eternal war? Please, that gets old and boring... AND WE ARE NOT INTERESTED!!!! We basically GIFTED you Peace. We just asked you to publicly say you were defeated... Guys, you ARE DEFEATED!!!! WHat is the point of prolonging this forever and ever???

How boring...
[/quote]
Wrong. The reverted original terms also require an admission that they were wrong. They might have been dumb, but NPO signaled loud and clear that they were next in line to declare war, so there's nothing wrong with FAN and Fark's declaration of war.
[hr]
I agree that FAN and Fark should get over it and just accept the terms that were originally presented, even if it means lying and making a fake apology. Make no mistake about that. But the NPO's stream of mistruths along this path are rankling me.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Max Power]

Mary should have been in the next Brehon/FARK/FAN IRC chat apologizing for that miscommunication. Leaving your second-in-command to take that blow isn't good management. Doesn't matter whose fault it is - if you're the leader, you answer for it. If Brehon screwed up, he and Mary could discuss it in private. If it was bad faith negotiating, yes, it's bad. If it's an honest mistake, which I'm inclined to believe it was, Mary should have been out there.

Aside from that, FARK has lost over 75% of its pre-war NS and FAN is a smoldering ruin. If they insist on fighting still, let GOONS or some similarly low ANS alliance mop them up. NPO has a big enough lower tier to do this itself, and can even maintain some tech dealing if it coordinates well enough. An extended war would hurt NPO but it would hurt FARK and FAN far more.

[Brehon]

Absolutely no where did I state the NPO wasn't receiving damage. We all know both sides lose pixels. I screwed up, certainly. You can devise whatever malice you want from it, you would still be wrong.

As for why the offer is light, the offer was light for exactly what I and we the NPO have said. We have been on the other side and there was no reason to punish. Everything I have said is what happened, when and why. You don't agree with the though process that is fine. The fact you don't agree is not equal to "its all a lie" or rather "stream of mistruths".

[Doitzel]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326837241' post='2901698']
If two parts of the same text seem to contradict each other, then it's probably a sign you're not interpreting one of them properly. But if it's not worded well enough for you, I will elaborate on the sequence of events here: The initial offer was made on the spot under the belief it would be acceptable. The terms were discussed on our side after the offer was made, and were not approved. Brehon went to personally apologize to the other side for the confusion.
[/quote]
The alternative explanation is that there's a contradiction because the author is concealing something or lying.

What is the point of this thread? Even going with your story:

Three weeks ago FAN and Fark won't surrender to terms A. New terms B are drawn up a week ago, with Brehon expressing impatience at Fark and FAN taking too long in reviewing them inside their governments. Terms B are withdrawn abruptly by Pacific three days later because they were given by a mistake in Pacific's government. Fark and FAN still won't accept terms A and are indignant at the disingenuous terms B. Pacific gets upset and tries to spin this against Fark and FAN for not submitting to Pacifican mercy in terms A.

Essentially then, Brehon's entire intent here was to rehash the thread he already made (which was apparently a passive-aggressive attempt to get Fark and FAN to accept terms A) while parading his own ineptitude. A public relations coup, for sure!

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1326837252' post='2901699']
Are you really going to handwave away the fact that while Brehon made a mistake, the initial offer NPO made is being more generous than many, many alliances would have given, ourselves included? I get that you want to focus on Brehon's mistake to do maximum political damage to NPO (good luck with that, nobody is buying it), but you should probably stop before you lose what little credibility you have left from your halcyon days.
[/quote]
I have no idea what are common terms these days. I simply meant that what Pacific did at the pinnacle of its power is not relevant. Why anyone would expect FAN to accept those terms when they wouldn't accept them after nearly two years of being under Pacific's heel is beyond me, though. The fact that the latter are the ones who are complaining about their opponents not accepting their oh-so-lenient terms is an oddity. Their acceptance is their call, not mine.

[Brehon]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1326837984' post='2901714']
Mary should have been in the next Brehon/FARK/FAN IRC chat apologizing for that miscommunication. Leaving your second-in-command to take that blow isn't good management. Doesn't matter whose fault it is - if you're the leader, you answer for it. If Brehon screwed up, he and Mary could discuss it in private. If it was bad faith negotiating, yes, it's bad. If it's an honest mistake, which I'm inclined to believe it was, Mary should have been out there.

Aside from that, FARK has lost over 75% of its pre-war NS and FAN is a smoldering ruin. If they insist on fighting still, let GOONS or some similarly low ANS alliance mop them up. NPO has a big enough lower tier to do this itself, and can even maintain some tech dealing if it coordinates well enough. An extended war would hurt NPO but it would hurt FARK and FAN far more.
[/quote]

Mary has been pulled away recently by real life.

[Brehon]

It was put out here because A. people asked, B. I was told "I will drop logs" like it was some threat. So you are going to drop logs, hell here they are. The fact I have my commentary in there... that is my right, just as is yours to follow up and post what you wish.

Also... offer A, B and C were NOT accepted. Show me FARK and FAN both accepting terms.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Brehon

[AmbroseIV]

Hmm.


I'm going out on a limb and saying Fark didn't accept the original terms because FAN won't "surrender" (judging by the talks with Jack, at least) 'n they weren't going to leave them high and dry, correct?


Mistakes were made by numerous people but, as a result of that initial stance, all hold ups in peace are attributed to Fark; when FAN are asked if they'd even consider peace without acknowledging a surrender, they decline... because it excludes Fark. Somewhere along the line, you missed the entire point of them both staying in this war.


So... Fark are crazy? No - everyone involved in the peace talks needed to take a step back and see this for what it is.

[Aeros]

Yeah, reading this, I can say NPO did everything they could to end this amicably. Clearly being nice is not working, so be mean.

[Letum]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326838063' post='2901717']
The alternative explanation is that there's a contradiction because the author is concealing something or lying.
[/quote]

Concealing what? Our master plan to use an admission of defeat as a stepping stone to world domination? Covering his ass on the mistake he's already admitted to making?


[quote]
What is the point of this thread? Even going with your story:

Three weeks ago FAN and Fark won't surrender to terms A. New terms B are drawn up a week ago, with Brehon expressing impatience at Fark and FAN taking too long in reviewing them inside their governments. Terms B are withdrawn abruptly by Pacific three days later because they were given by a mistake in Pacific's government. Fark and FAN still won't accept terms A and are indignant at the disingenuous terms B. Pacific gets upset and tries to spin this against Fark and FAN for not submitting to Pacifican mercy in terms A.
[/quote]


The point is to give insight and accountability on the biggest tragicomedy of this war, and once again explain our position.

And did I mention we're a little frustrated here?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Letum

[Doitzel]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326838230' post='2901720']
It was put out here because A. people asked, B. I was told "I will drop logs" like it was some threat. So you are going to drop logs, hell here they are. The fact I have my commentary in there... that is my right, just as is yours to follow up and post what you wish.

Also... offer A, B and C were NOT accepted. Show me FARK and FAN both accepting terms.
[/quote]
[20:17] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> The hardest part for me is the "statement"
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> Well they are the reason I even had that in there. Everyone wants to have fun, so lets do it, was the reason I wrote it that way.
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> You could opt not to do the statement
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> Its a choice, not a need.
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> I think FARK had a statement they wanted to make
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ahhhh I did not know that.
01[20:18] <Brehon[NPO]> The only thing I added is any statement can't be inflamemtory
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, ok, weekends are tough but let me get to work on this.
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I agree with that
[20:19] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> But that's why its difficult. Everything FAN says and does inflames somebody
01[20:19] <Brehon[NPO]> Alright... I would like to see this wrapped up for everyone to meet (and I mean everyone) 1 time to finalize and then end this by say Monday evening.
[20:20] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, given nobody is around weekends, I'll do my best but I think Tuesday is more realistic
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> That would be acceptable
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> Sorry doing a few things at onces
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> But yeah Tuesday could work fine
[20:21] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> On the lulz side of things, Doomee has 5 infra left so some nato tool nuked her today
01[20:21] <Brehon[NPO]> hhe
01[20:21] <Brehon[NPO]> Fun is fun
[20:21] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> yup
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ok, let me get to work, ttyl
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> I just need to hear from FARK and we can set up a meeting for tuesday with everyone to finalize?
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> OK, I will post this log up for them

hey do you know what day to-day is, brehon?

[Max Power]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326838067' post='2901718']
Mary has been pulled away recently by real life.
[/quote]
I suspected that was the case. Obviously a few-line PM/email to the affected parties is the best option in those events, but as someone who's been pulled away by real life before, I can sympathize. Hopefully all is well and these talks go better.

I do accept the idea that if TOP and IRON are fighting Polar, Fark and NPO fighting is very realistic, by the way.

[Feanor Noldorin]

The OP was good stuff. Thank you for posting it for us. It still boggles my mind how people refuse to acknowledge that they have been soundly defeated in a war when everyone on the planet knows that they have been soundly defeated.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1326839221' post='2901731']
The OP was good stuff. Thank you for posting it for us. It still boggles my mind how people refuse to acknowledge that they have been soundly defeated in a war when everyone on the planet knows that they have been soundly defeated.
[/quote]

You would think losing Sanction would evidence enough...