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FARK/FAN vs NPO up to date


Brehon
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I have learned a few things:

FAN can be fun. Fighting FAN is a step in learning just what you are made of. There have been things we have learned which we still use to this day. They are at this point getting caught up in vapors, but that is their right to do and I hold no ill will on that. I don't even really question what they do... I just say.. Its FAN and then I go about my business.

FARK is nuts. Not the fun kind of nuts, but nuts like... lets watch the white noise snow on the tv because there is a message inside. There is an instability plain and simple. For all their talk of being straight forward, wanting peace or similar, they are simply full of !@#$.

People have had questions, rumors and similar. Additionally I was actually told by FARK they would drop logs. Well drop them... no wait, let me do it for you. NEVER... EVER try to call my bluff because I simply don't bluff. This was originally a work in progress to keep track of things for a blog post war. Why wait.

:WARNING THIS IS LONG:

Dealing with FAN / FARK

I am writing this now because last night (Jan 16th) after meeting with my allies and fellow coalition members about the FAN / FARK front. To my amazement, and I shouldn't be amazed I know, there was an attempt to spin this to show FARK / FAN as a victim. Based on this, I decided I would go ahead and share with everyone the process.

Our first meeting. While this front is/was clearly a regular topic of discussion we always new we weren't going to ask for reps. We felt in the end their entry, albeit stupid, was part of the war. Additionally our DOS was an open door, so the risk was always known.

However taking that, we really figured we would not make the war the base point for bitterness. When you want a message out there, you just have to do it with action, so we did. Here is our first meeting on December 29, 2011:

[spoiler]
03[19:59] * tf905[Fark] (removed to no violate) has joined #Zargon_Plains
[19:59] <tf905[Fark]> Good evening! (emoticon removed)
01[19:59] <&Brehon[NPO]> Evening
[19:59] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Good evening
[19:59] <tf905[Fark]> Mary, don't think we've had a chance to meet.
[20:00] <tf905[Fark]> Nice to meet ya!
[20:00] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We haven't yet
[20:00] <tf905[Fark]> Brehon, I remember you from my diplo days to Pacifica
[20:00] <tf905[Fark]> Nice to see you again.
01[20:00] <&Brehon[NPO]> I feel I should have to apologize now knowing that (emoticon removed) hehe
[20:00] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> It's good to make your acquaintance
01[20:00] <&Brehon[NPO]> Forgive me your IRC name isn't familiar but if we have met, good to see you again (emoticon removed)
[20:00] <@Farrin[NPO]> I was telling tf905[Fark] that 4/6 of our high gov are Southern
[20:00] <tf905[Fark]> No worries.
[20:01] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Though we aren't meeting under the most auspicious of circumstances.
[20:01] <tf905[Fark]> I was just "905" on your forums. CF hates my nick.
[20:01] <tf905[Fark]> Indeed.
01[20:01] <&Brehon[NPO]> haha
[20:01] <@Farrin[NPO]> Is there a meaning behind your nick?
01[20:01] <&Brehon[NPO]> 905... well I'll be damned (emoticon removed)
01[20:02] <&Brehon[NPO]> I had no idea (emoticon removed)
03[20:02] * ManwithplanX[FARK] (removed) has joined #Zargon_Plains
[20:02] <tf905[Fark]> Yeah
[20:02] <tf905[Fark]> It's a Who song, actually
[20:02] <@Farrin[NPO]> ah, nice
[20:02] <tf905[Fark]> Ah, there's PlanX
03[20:02] * ironone[fark] (removed) has joined #Zargon_Plains
[20:02] <tf905[Fark]> and ironone.
[20:02] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> I'm watching Doctor Who
[20:03] <tf905[Fark]> Tums should be in a few
01[20:03] <&Brehon[NPO]> How does this benefit fark? (emoticon removed)
[20:03] <tf905[Fark]> And NPO? XD
01[20:03] <&Brehon[NPO]> Planx should get the joke (emoticon removed)
[20:04] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Heheh.
[20:04] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> It benefits fark by keeping me out of the room :v
01[20:04] <&Brehon[NPO]> hahaha (emoticon removed)
[20:05] <@Farrin[NPO]> Where's our girl Tums?
01[20:06] <&Brehon[NPO]> Stalking someone no doubt
[20:06] <tf905[Fark]> Who, her?
01[20:06] <&Brehon[NPO]> Yes (emoticon removed)
[20:06] <tf905[Fark]> She's sweetness and light, I don't know what you're talking about.
01[20:06] <&Brehon[NPO]> She is a dirty north sider (emoticon removed)
01[20:06] <&Brehon[NPO]> (we are both from Chicago)
01[20:07] <&Brehon[NPO]> She is a north sider I am a south sider
[20:07] <tf905[Fark]> Ahhh! Right on.
[20:09] <@Farrin[NPO]> Let's make sure and give Tums some hell since she's late =P
06[20:10] * tf905[Fark] steals Tums' coffee cup and switches it to a sippy cup.
[20:10] <@Farrin[NPO]> heh
01[20:10] <&Brehon[NPO]> She's a northsider... she has to be fashionably late...else she isn't holding up her rep
[20:11] <tf905[Fark]> lol
[20:12] <@Farrin[NPO]> No hurry really, Mary's killing dragons in Skyrim =P
[20:12] <tf905[Fark]> Oh nice!
[20:12] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Yeah
[20:12] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> I just got jumped by one
[20:12] <tf905[Fark]> Haven't got my mitts on a copy yet. Been jealously listening to all my folks enjoying the awesome.
[20:13] <@Farrin[NPO]> It's pretty epic.
01[20:13] <&Brehon[NPO]> Star Wars The Old Republic is missing me... but the things I sacrifice
06[20:13] * tf905[Fark] keeps digging for diamonds...
[20:13] <@Farrin[NPO]> I think I was up to about 70 or 80 hours... and now I've gotten into TOR with Brehon =P
[20:13] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> It is awesome
[20:13] <tf905[Fark]> Sweet
[20:13] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Just, you know, didn't expect a !@#$@#$ dragon to show up
[20:13] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> While I'm on this quest to save a tree.
[20:14] <tf905[Fark]> I say the same thing about creepers in my lair in MC.
[20:14] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Okay
[20:14] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> It just wrecked my !@#$ hard.
03[20:15] * Tums[away] (removed) has joined #Zargon_Plains
[20:15] <@Farrin[NPO]> better late than never! =P
[20:15] <Tums[away]> Hey guys (emoticon removed)
01[20:15] <&Brehon[NPO]> mmhmm
[20:15] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Welcome.
01[20:15] <&Brehon[NPO]> Damn north sider, fashionably late
[20:15] <Tums[away]> Sorry I'm late :P
[20:15] <tf905[Fark]> Wb, Tums!
[20:15] <Tums[away]> Brehon don't you have to be out raping or shooting someone?
[20:15] <Tums[away]> :P
03[20:16] * Tums[away] is now known as Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]
01[20:16] <&Brehon[NPO]> When you ask for it, its not Rape tums, you can't change your mind just because your daddy doesn't like a south sider
06[20:16] * @Farrin[NPO] edges away from Brehon
01[20:16] <&Brehon[NPO]> Did you want me to shoot him.. .you seem to be hinting that way all the time (emoticon removed)
[20:17] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> I'm not even going to say anything.
06[20:17] * &Brehon[NPO] thinks we should get down to business or he and Tums will continue this for hours
[20:17] <@Farrin[NPO]> Good call, boss =)
[20:17] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> tsk tsk....typical violent southsider
03[20:17] * TheXerox[Fark] (removed to not violate rules) has joined #Zargon_Plains
[20:17] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> Haha anywho :P
[20:17] <tf905[Fark]> Ahh, good, Xe's here.
[20:17] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Whenever you guys are ready to begin, we can get this going.
[20:17] <tf905[Fark]> Well, can start the initial preliminaries until she gets back. So, like to first say that it has been an honor, albeit a rather strange one considering the circumstances admittedly.
03[20:17] * Mary_the_Fantabulous sets mode: +i
[20:17] <TheXerox[Fark]> Sorry, last minute hold up!
01[20:18] <&Brehon[NPO]> I have to admit... I am amprehensive
01[20:18] <&Brehon[NPO]> Considering how it started (emoticon removed)
01[20:18] <&Brehon[NPO]> forgive my spelling (emoticon removed)
[20:18] <tf905[Fark]> No worries.
[20:19] <tf905[Fark]> (emoticon removed)
01[20:19] <&Brehon[NPO]> I hope Tums shared my concerns when we talked.
[20:19] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> I did
[20:19] <tf905[Fark]> She has and it is something that we are addressing with our membership.
06[20:19] * &Brehon[NPO] understood
01[20:19] <&Brehon[NPO]> Thank you
06[20:20] * ~Mary_the_Fantabulous nods.
[20:20] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> It's been an issue we have noticed growing at an alarming rate and we are taking measures to stop it
[20:20] <tf905[Fark]> I do apologize for the way that certain folks behaved, it was unacceptable.
01[20:20] <&Brehon[NPO]> meh, let it go for here (emoticon removed)
01[20:21] <&Brehon[NPO]> Lets get to this
[20:21] <tf905[Fark]> Others were keeping it classy, some were definitely not. :/
01[20:21] <&Brehon[NPO]> Good news is we are all gov and we can be classy here... its a good start
[20:21] <@Farrin[NPO]> That's the way of it, not just with your membership.
[20:21] <tf905[Fark]> Agreed.
06[20:21] * ironone[fark] speak for yourself
01[20:21] <&Brehon[NPO]> ?
[20:21] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> Hah
[20:21] <tf905[Fark]> lol
[20:22] <TheXerox[Fark]> ?
06[20:22] * &Brehon[NPO] removes stick from ass to find his humor
01[20:22] <&Brehon[NPO]> OH... LOL
[20:22] <@Farrin[NPO]> Brehon's just antsy 'cause we're keeping him from TOR =P
01[20:22] <&Brehon[NPO]> LOL shhhh
[20:22] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> lol
01[20:22] <&Brehon[NPO]> Anyone mind if I am blunt?
[20:22] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Y'all are keeping me from Skyrim, so I'm a bit antsy as well.
[20:22] <tf905[Fark]> Please, Brehon
[20:22] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> Oh god TOR
[20:23] <@Farrin[NPO]> I'm getting antsy about not beingin TOR myself =P
[20:23] <TheXerox[Fark]> I'm being kept from SWGemu, so I'm antsy as well
01[20:23] <&Brehon[NPO]> Lets end this. We have been on your side of an assstomp
[20:23] <ironone[fark]> Be bllunt
[20:23] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We will be.
01[20:23] <&Brehon[NPO]> So, we have a very simply plan
[20:23] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Basically
06[20:23] * &Brehon[NPO] gives the floor to the Emperor
[20:24] <ManwithplanX[FARK]> I want this floor. It's hardwood. I demand that Fark be given this floor in reps
01[20:24] <&Brehon[NPO]> planx... shut up (emoticon removed)
[20:24] <tf905[Fark]> lol, hush
[20:25] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> I feel, and my Regent and other officers agree, that Fark has lost enough as it is, and as such we will not be seeking reparations from you.
[20:25] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> We very much appreciate it.
[20:26] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> It has been a fun fight for us
[20:26] <tf905[Fark]> ^
01[20:26] <&Brehon[NPO]> We have had a good time, we dont' need to punish. Stupid vendettas and crap need to just die
[20:26] <TheXerox[Fark]> Agreed
[20:26] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We do want an official statement from Fark acknowledging defeat and that your entry into this war was a mistake.
[20:27] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> That will be the only "term."
01[20:27] <&Brehon[NPO]> No reentry
[20:27] <ironone[fark]> No thanks.
[20:27] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> That as well.
[20:27] <ironone[fark]> No thanks
[20:27] <TheXerox[Fark]> iron...
[20:27] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> ironone just a moment
[20:27] <tf905[Fark]> Iron
[20:28] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> I would advise you to speak with the other in your gov't before making statements for them.
[20:28] <@Farrin[NPO]> I hope you can all see that, even though we were preempted, we're willing to allow you off with what amounts to white peace.
[20:28] <ironone[fark]> I'm making a statement for myself.
[20:28] <tf905[Fark]> And I certainly do appreciate that offer.
01[20:29] <&Brehon[NPO]> We aren't here for ourselves
[20:29] <ironone[fark]> Other gov are welcome to speak up
01[20:29] <&Brehon[NPO]> We are here as government, lets keep that in mind.
[20:29] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Indeed.
[20:29] <tf905[Fark]> ironone does not represent the rest of our views, but we will certainly discuss your offer in private.
[20:30] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Certainly
[20:30] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> It's a huge decision to make.
[20:30] <tf905[Fark]> I did have another question, if I may...
[20:30] <@Farrin[NPO]> Go ahead.
01[20:30] <&Brehon[NPO]> by all means
[20:30] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> I don't expect you to make a decision right away.
[20:30] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> Your terms are extremely generous and I am very appreciative of them
[20:31] <tf905[Fark]> How are y'all looking with FAN at this point?
[20:31] <tf905[Fark]> We do have a concern for our friends and that they are treated fairly.
01[20:31] <&Brehon[NPO]> Same offer to FAN
[20:31] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Of course, and we respect that.
[20:31] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We will be offering the same thing to them.
[20:32] <@Farrin[NPO]> I believe their issue is wanting to see you taken care of first.
[20:32] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> Heh we are trying to take care of each other :P
01[20:32] <&Brehon[NPO]> Of course, completely understood
[20:32] <@Farrin[NPO]> I completely understand
01[20:32] <&Brehon[NPO]> Jack Tarr spoke very highly of you all
[20:33] <tf905[Fark]> At the end of the day, my hope is that these ancient grudges between NPO/Fark/FAN can all be settled.
[20:33] <TheXerox[Fark]> What of the other alliances fighting us in your defense, what if some of them try to drag us back into this by making unprovoked attacks after peace has been brokered?
[20:33] <tf905[Fark]> FAN themselves apologized for the flaming finger they gave us four years ago.
[20:33] <@Farrin[NPO]> We absolutely agree. Grudges have no place.
[20:33] <tf905[Fark]> heh
[20:33] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> In the last war we had, our main concern in peace talks was making sure our friends and allies would be taken care of.
01[20:33] <&Brehon[NPO]> I can say without concern of contridiction, NPO has no grudge with FARK or FAN, didn't before.. don't now.
[20:34] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> It's a great thing to look after one another.
01[20:34] <&Brehon[NPO]> Hell looking out for one another is why we are in this conflict to begin with.
[20:34] <tf905[Fark]> Indeed. I was happy with the agreement that Olympus and Guru Order reached earlier.
[20:34] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Same here.
[20:35] <@Farrin[NPO]> TheXerox[Fark], we've been in discussion with our allies defending us. They want to ensure we have peace, then I see no reason for them not to do the same.
[20:35] <TheXerox[Fark]> Gotcha. Thank you for doing that
[20:36] <tf905[Fark]> Going on that track, I have concerns about some of the bandwagoners who decided to oA an ODP of an ODP of an ODP to get to us.
06[20:36] * &Brehon[NPO] listens
[20:37] <tf905[Fark]> Would NPO be opposed to our handling of that issue seperately (ie NG/GOONS/NoR/TOP)?
[20:37] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We've been on the losing end of such chain=ins before as well. Let's hear it.
[20:38] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Do you mean seeking an individual peace with each?
[20:38] <ironone[fark]> Yes
[20:38] <tf905[Fark]> Yes
01[20:38] <&Brehon[NPO]> As long as you aren't continuing to war with them, I don't see the having issues with that.
01[20:38] <&Brehon[NPO]> ignore the "the" before having (emoticon removed)
[20:39] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Much of that has to be decided with those alliances. It may be that they will not agree to closing out the front on an individual basis.
[20:42] <tf905[Fark]> Ok. That might be a bit of a concern. NG has made it abundantly clear that they jumped in specifically to hit us.
[20:42] <tf905[Fark]> They simply had no business getting involved.
[20:42] <@Farrin[NPO]> We obviously can't speak for other alliances, especially those you mentioned.
[20:42] <tf905[Fark]> Oh, indeed.
[20:42] <@Farrin[NPO]> Our allies who are defending us are one matter... the others? Not so much.
[20:42] <tf905[Fark]> And I completely recognize that.
01[20:43] <&Brehon[NPO]> I have to say tho TF... the counter to that would be ... you had no business jumping NPO... I am just giving perspective
01[20:43] <&Brehon[NPO]> Understand tho, I do hear what you are sayaing
[20:46] <tf905[Fark]> Certainly.
[20:46] <tf905[Fark]> As I see it, your direct allies were doing the exact thing that awesome allies should do.
[20:46] <tf905[Fark]> Defend their friend.
[20:47] <@Farrin[NPO]> I agree completely there.
[20:47] <tf905[Fark]> But as you've been in my shoes, you know it doesn't take 12 AA's to hit one AA
01[20:47] <&Brehon[NPO]> As I am sure your attacking us was positioning, I am sure you can't fault the "other side" for doing that as well
01[20:49] <&Brehon[NPO]> We respect and understand your need/desire to talk with them separately
[20:49] <TheXerox[Fark]> I think that's what a lot of what's been going on as of late boils down to, the "other side". We'll likely see a lot more things similar to this in the future until the fit hits the shan for them
01[20:50] <&Brehon[NPO]> Unless we all work on the honest side of things and not allow such to continue
01[20:50] <&Brehon[NPO]> It really is an alliance choice and stand /shrugs
[20:50] <TheXerox[Fark]> Indeed
01[20:50] <&Brehon[NPO]> And until we all collectively stop it, it will continue
01[20:50] <&Brehon[NPO]> You have to see you taking that position after your attack didn't work they way you would want will fall a bit deaf
01[20:50] <&Brehon[NPO]> And I don't mean that to be rude, its just... well we have been there.
01[20:51] <&Brehon[NPO]> Man that didn't read nearly like I saw it in my head (emoticon removed)
[20:51] <TheXerox[Fark]> I know, been around here a LONG time, I've seen everything over the last 4, almost 5 years
01[20:51] <&Brehon[NPO]> 06'r here (emoticon removed) along with the Bosslady
[20:52] <TheXerox[Fark]> Early '07, Fark greenlighter here
06[20:52] * ~Mary_the_Fantabulous nods.
[20:53] <tf905[Fark]> Well, it's not so much a position against y'all, please do understand that.
[20:54] <TheXerox[Fark]> But we were sick to death of fighting IRON
[20:54] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> So what would you call pre-empting another alliance if not a position against them? ;P
[20:54] <tf905[Fark]> But NG/GOONS have made this front more about them now than anything about our attacking you.
[20:54] <tf905[Fark]> lol, Mary, I get what you're saying.
01[20:54] <&Brehon[NPO]> Honestly, you gave them that ticket in via your DOW
[20:54] <TheXerox[Fark]> It wasn't so much a thing against you guys so much as it was us being unpredictable
[20:54] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Yeah.
01[20:55] <&Brehon[NPO]> YOu left yourselves flat and mute to the CN world (the winning side) based on that.
[20:55] <tf905[Fark]> The point is. NG was going to hit us no matter where we went. on you, on IRON, wherever.
01[20:55] <&Brehon[NPO]> Because all they will see is... OMG you pre-empted adn now you want to be moral... qq l2polotics and all the other stupid bs they do
[20:55] <@Farrin[NPO]> You unfortunately lose the high road at the point of the pre-empt.
[20:56] <tf905[Fark]> Depends on one's point of view.
[20:56] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Whether or not NG would've attacked Fark regardless of how things fell out doesn't affect what we are discussing here and now.
[20:56] <TheXerox[Fark]> Agreed
[20:56] <tf905[Fark]> TOP/IRON hit Polar first. For no legitimate reason whatsoever.
[20:56] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We are discussing peace for Fark and the New Pacific Order.
[20:56] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> We've offered you our terms.
[20:56] <tf905[Fark]> So that side's High Ground is equally cancelled.
01[20:57] <&Brehon[NPO]> If CN were fair
01[20:57] <&Brehon[NPO]> CN is not fair
01[20:57] <&Brehon[NPO]> NPO was quite, we were prempted by DH, we still had to pay (in NS) because the political capital we had wasn't strong enough to make it other.
[20:57] <@Farrin[NPO]> tf905[Fark], that's not really ours to decide either way. All that we can do, and all that y'all can do, is decide on how to affect our own fates.
01[20:58] <&Brehon[NPO]> You have to deal with the field before you, not the field you want.
[20:58] <tf905[Fark]> Agreed, which is why I'd prefer to treat NG/GOONS as a separate deal altogether.
[20:58] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> We appreciate you guys taking the high road as you have
06[20:58] * &Brehon[NPO] nods
01[20:58] <&Brehon[NPO]> We understand TF and have no issue with it
[21:01] <tf905[Fark]> Ok. I think we have a reasonable start already, but I would like to take some time to confer with the rest of my government as well as our FAN friends.
01[21:01] <&Brehon[NPO]> Absolutely
06[21:01] * ~Mary_the_Fantabulous nods.
[21:01] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Shall we meet here again tomorrow, same time?
[21:01] <tf905[Fark]> Thank you for your time and we'll be in touch soon.
[21:02] <tf905[Fark]> Might take a little bit longer due to the holiday weekend.
[21:02] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Understandable.
[21:03] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> We should probably get FAN in on any of the other meetings we have from here on out
[21:03] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> I don't want them to think we are trying to broker something with you guys behind their backs
01[21:03] <&Brehon[NPO]> *nods*
01[21:03] <&Brehon[NPO]> I had an impromptu talk with Jack, but it was nothing official
[21:04] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Hopefully they would understand that you aren't doing that anyway, but sure.
[21:05] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> We very much appreciate you guys taking the time to chat with us
[21:05] <Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]> I feel like this was a productive meeting (emoticon removed)
01[21:05] <&Brehon[NPO]> Anytime, you all know how to find us
[21:06] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Indeed
[21:06] <@Farrin[NPO]> We look forward to hearing from y'all soon =)
[21:06] <TheXerox[Fark]> Likewise!
[21:07] <~Mary_the_Fantabulous> Well, Skyrim is calling to me and I'm sure TOR is shouting for Brehon
[21:08] <TheXerox[Fark]> Enjoy yourselves!
01[21:08] <&Brehon[NPO]> (emoticon removed)
[21:08] <tf905[Fark]> Ok, y'all have a good evening.
03[21:14] * Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark] is now known as Tums[away]
01[21:16] <&Brehon[NPO]> You are all about to get kicked (emoticon removed)
01[21:16] <&Brehon[NPO]> The bosses channel is used for other things (emoticon removed)
[/spoiler]


More than a week later, on January 10, we met with FARK and FAN again to receive their response:

[spoiler]
[21:13] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Okay.
[21:14] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): We all know why we're here.
[21:14] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): What is your reply?
[21:14] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Please restate the offer
[21:14] (@Farrin[NPO]): I'm calling it "beige" peace
[21:15] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): beige????
[21:15] (MrSmyth[FAN]): as long as its not mauve
[21:15] (Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]): Not quite white :P
[21:15] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): is that because of Sir Paul?
[21:15] (@Farrin[NPO]): No reentry into the conflict, and an admission of defeat and wrong-doing.
[21:15] (recack[Fark]): more taupe
[21:15] (@Farrin[NPO]): There are people who claim that white peace denotes no terms at all, and because there are some terms... beige peace =)
[21:16] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Well, if thats what it is, I'm sorry but no thanks
[21:16] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): FAN is not defeated
[21:16] (MrSmyth[FAN]): I agree with Jack
[21:16] (Mal[FAN]): thirded
[21:16] (@Farrin[NPO]): And I'm assume that's the official answer on behalf of the government of FAN?
[21:17] (tf905[Fark]): We would like to request a modification to the surrender term as a compromise.
[21:17] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Alright, FAN.
[21:17] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): go ahead 905
[21:17] (@Farrin[NPO]): 905... what compromise do you offer?
[21:18] (tf905[Fark]): If all parties would be agreeable, I would suggest we post a "statement of mutual respect and good sportsmanship" instead.
[21:18] (tf905[Fark]): I'll elaborate.
[21:18] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): As opposed to?
[21:18] (@Farrin[NPO]): I wasn't aware that it was good sportsmanship to pre-empt someone =)
[21:18] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Admitting you lost?
[21:18] (tf905[Fark]): The way this worked out was NPO supported a senseless attack on our allies in NpO, in turn we declared on NPO.
[21:19] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Farrin, people that live in glass houses etc
[21:19] (Mr_Vicarious[Fark]): I believe it's safe to say the apology won't fly
[21:19] (tf905[Fark]): Instead of turning a mess, we could turn into an opportunity.
[21:19] (tf905[Fark]): NPO has garnered a ton of respect Bobwide.
[21:19] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): An opportunity for what, exactly?
[21:19] (tf905[Fark]): Turned over a 'new leaf' PR wise.
[21:20] (tf905[Fark]): An opportunity to shake hands, all parties wish each other well for a well fought war and a show of respect for one another.
[21:20] (tf905[Fark]): Hence, "good sportsmanship."
[21:20] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Which would have happened anyway upon the completion of the terms presented.
[21:22] (tf905[Fark]): Not necessarily. By a showing of our respect for NPO (which in Fark's case would be genuine), we put aside once and for all any difficulties we have had in the past with each other.
[21:22] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Those terms would not be completed tho
[21:23] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Yes, necessarily. We would have done that with you regardless.
[21:23] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): You never asked.
[21:23] (tf905[Fark]): It wouldn't be treated as an "easy out" but hope for friendlier relations.
[21:23] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): I will say that NPO has fought this war with respect. More than I can say foer all their allies
[21:23] (@Farrin[NPO]): I was under the sincere impression that our difficulties with FAN had already been dealt with, and I was surprised to discover there were any with Fark to begin wtih.
[21:23] (CountryMouse[Fark]): You declared your support for the stomping of our ally.
[21:23] (CountryMouse[Fark]): We took issue with that.
[21:23] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Farrin, their weren't any problems till you threatened Polaris
[21:24] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): And yet you chose one of three alliances.
[21:24] (tf905[Fark]): Well, this was simply in response to the delicate nature of p/P relations.
[21:24] (@Farrin[NPO]): I'd argue when we declared support it hadn't become a stomping. Also, what Mary said =)
[21:24] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): All the same
[21:24] (tf905[Fark]): Fair enough, Farring, but it was going to be a stomping.
[21:24] (tf905[Fark]): Farrin
[21:24] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Well, in any event, that was then and this is now
[21:24] (tf905[Fark]): That was a certainty.
[21:25] (Mr_Vicarious[Fark]): and now I must tag tums in
[21:25] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): we can move forward or not
[21:25] (@Farrin[NPO]): Have a good evening, Mr_Vicarious[Fark]
[21:25] (CountryMouse[Fark]): Night Mr. V.
[21:25] (Mr_Vicarious[Fark]): sorry everyone, I'll be sure to catch up later
[21:25] (Mr_Vicarious[Fark]): night all
[21:25] (@Kean): Night
[21:25] (Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]): Goodnight Vic!
[21:25] (MrSmyth[FAN]): NN MrV
[21:25] *** Mr_Vicarious[Fark] (removed) Quit (Quit: Mr_Vicarious[Fark])
[21:25] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Both of you have indicated that you will not accept the offer on the table as it stands, correct?
[21:26] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): If you are refering to "beige peace" you are correct
[21:26] (Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]): Yes, but we are willing to work with you on this
[21:26] (tf905[Fark]): Fark requests the modification as a sign of respect and friendlier relations between our people.
[21:27] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): FAN concurs
[21:28] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): If Fark wishes to further negotiate over what exactly gets said in the surrender, we will be willing to play ball.
[21:28] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): FAN as well.
[21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Surrender?
[21:29] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Yes.
[21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): No
[21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): lol
[21:29] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Then I think we have nothing further to discuss with you tonight.
[21:29] (Mal[FAN]): ceasefire
[21:30] -snow.coldfront.net:@#Zargon_Plains- Mary_the_Fantabulous invited ManwithplanX[FARK] into the channel.
[21:30] *** ManwithplanX[FARK] (removed) has joined #zargon_plains
[21:30] (@Farrin[NPO]): I'm sorry, Mal[FAN]?
[21:30] (tf905[Fark]): How about we take a little time to consider our offer. I believe that in the end, a sign of good sportsmanship will benefit NPO greatly.
[21:30] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): I checked my guns at the door Mal
[21:31] (Mal[FAN]): I believed it was a ceasefire we were discussing
[21:31] (tf905[Fark]): And I say this as the former diplo to your alliance and with the greatest respect.
[21:32] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): If Fark wishes for time to discuss internally, alright. Will meeting again tomorrow night at the same time be acceptable for you?
[21:34] (tf905[Fark]): Mary, I was humbly requesting that y'all consider our offer.
[21:34] (tf905[Fark]): Surrender isn't an option for FAN, therefore I am inclined to agree.
[21:34] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Ah.
[21:34] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Pardon.
[21:34] (tf905[Fark]): No worries.
[21:34] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): I gave my reply to that though
[21:35] (@Farrin[NPO]): [21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Surrender?
[21:35] (@Farrin[NPO]): [21:29] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Yes.
[21:35] (@Farrin[NPO]): [21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): No
[21:35] (@Farrin[NPO]): [21:29] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): lol
[21:35] (@Farrin[NPO]): [21:29] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Then I think we have nothing further to discuss with you tonight.
[21:36] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Our initial demands, such as they are, remain in place, but we will be willing to have something in terms of a "Good game, everybody" kind of statement as well.
[21:36] (CountryMouse[Fark]): Surrender and apology won't be happening.
[21:36] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): ^
[21:36] (MrSmyth[FAN]): ^
[21:36] (Mal[FAN]): ^ +87
[21:36] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Then again, we have nothing further to discuss.
[21:37] (tf905[Fark]): Well, I am deeply saddened by your reply to our offer.
[21:37] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Good night all
[21:37] (MrSmyth[FAN]): thanks for the time
[21:37] (@Farrin[NPO]): I'm looking at the numbers y'all have both lost, and I don't understand why they won't be happening.
[21:37] (CountryMouse[Fark]): Numbers aren't the only thing.
[21:37] (Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]): Numbers don't matter to us
[21:37] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): I am genuinely sorry you're choosing this path for your alliances.
[21:37] (MrSmyth[FAN]): then, sadly you never will
[21:37] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): I will not lie, therefore I will not apologize
[21:37] (@Farrin[NPO]): Y'all went into this knowing you would lose, as you've stated on the OWF.
[21:37] (tf905[Fark]): I am sorry as well, Mary.
[21:37] (MrSmyth[FAN]): nope
[21:38] (tf905[Fark]): It's a fair compromise.
[21:38] (MrSmyth[FAN]): we went in knowing that it was a no win
[21:38] (MrSmyth[FAN]): loose wasnt an option
[21:38] (tf905[Fark]): I urge you to think on it further and the benefit it would bring to NPO.
[21:38] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): We have thought on it.
[21:38] (tf905[Fark]): In the meantime, thank you for your time.
[21:38] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): When you wish to end this
[21:39] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): You know where to find us.
[21:39] (~Mary_the_Fantabulous): Good night to you, and godspeed.
[21:39] (MrSmyth[FAN]): and you also
[21:39] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): We wish to end this now
[21:39] (Tumultuous_Papaya[Fark]): Same to you, Mary
[21:39] (tf905[Fark]): Good night, Mary and good luck.
[21:39] (tf905[Fark]): Farrin, Kean, Necoho, nice to see y'all as well.
[21:40] (CountryMouse[Fark]): Good night, all.
[21:40] (Jack_Tarr[FAN]): Good night all
[/spoiler]

In reading over the log, I have to say I am almost humored by the audacity of it. The attempt to sell their action as helpful on the world stage to the NPO. What is really funny is there was a part of me that felt "well what do they really want", "maybe they bit off more than they could chew and are now stuck." It was with that motivation I spoke to them to see if there was a common ground. Prior to doing so I spoke with Emperor Mary to set in my mind the goal and ground (if any) there was to give. Unfortunately I misunderstood. However, in the spirit of moving forward, I had further talks with them:


Potential new offer conversation with TF905 on January 11th.

[spoiler]
[15:53] <tf905[Fark]> So, what I offered last night really was more of a "hey, you know what, NPO is a great alliance and worthy of respect"
01[15:53] <Brehon[NPO]> NP, it was a rough night last night in general
[15:54] <tf905[Fark]> Because our attack on y'all, let's be honest, really bumped up your FA cred abroad.
01[15:54] <Brehon[NPO]> Would it be fair to say at this point, we are just working verbage which isn't insulting to the alliance?
[15:55] <tf905[Fark]> A mutual sign of respect and a good war with each other in favor of happier relations in the future would go a long way I think.
01[15:55] <Brehon[NPO]> we have put in a !@#$ ton of work on our FA cred. You gave it some icing. But that honestly is a bi-product for one side every war (emoticon removed)
[15:55] <tf905[Fark]> Indeed.
01[15:56] <Brehon[NPO]> So, lets find better verbage that works for all. If that is what everyone wants?
[15:57] <tf905[Fark]> Something that doesn't sound like a surrender or defeat, just a good sportsman "good game, much respect and well fought" from all three.
[15:57] <tf905[Fark]> I think we could talk further.
[15:57] <tf905[Fark]> Maybe make us do a bunch of beer reviews so we have to do something.
01[15:57] <Brehon[NPO]> heh
[15:57] <tf905[Fark]> FAN can review some of their arsenal.
[15:57] <tf905[Fark]> XD
01[15:58] <Brehon[NPO]> The question is, is that a tangible answer for you guys? For us all to have some fun with this?
[15:59] <tf905[Fark]> I wouldn't see why not. I can't speak for FAN, mind you.
01[16:00] <Brehon[NPO]> of course not
01[16:00] <Brehon[NPO]> Because listen, no one wants to punish anyone, but we don't want to be taken for granted either?
01[16:00] <Brehon[NPO]> It doesn't serve the NPO to have people go... hey we can hit them and then win or lose they will accept wahtever. Does that make sense?
[16:01] <tf905[Fark]> Certainly. I think in this, everyone would know you handed us our ass based on the numbers, but by a sign of respect from us, FAN and NPO, it'll show that you can be merciful as well as strong.
01[16:02] <Brehon[NPO]> I don't disagree with that at all. LIsten we can't ignore numbers, we couldn't during DH and you guys can't in this case.
[16:02] <tf905[Fark]> Can't ignore thirteen alliances coming down on Fark like the hand of god.
[16:03] <tf905[Fark]> lol
01[16:03] <Brehon[NPO]> Yet our alliances live, thus in an ultruistic stance, we are not defeated.
01[16:03] <Brehon[NPO]> So to belabor that is counter productive
01[16:03] <Brehon[NPO]> Hey... NPO vs the world... trust me when I say we really do understand.
[16:03] <tf905[Fark]> Exactly.
[16:04] <tf905[Fark]> Point was merely, "everyone saw what happened and the bold will think twice."
[16:04] <tf905[Fark]> Least that's my take.
01[16:04] <Brehon[NPO]> heh (emoticon removed)
01[16:04] <Brehon[NPO]> I think I can come up with something that will add some fun to this and allow us to have a resolution
01[16:04] <Brehon[NPO]> can you give me a few to finish a phone call and then write this out and give it to you?
[16:05] <tf905[Fark]> Certainly.
01[16:05] <Brehon[NPO]> Because if this continues, people (our members as in yours and mine) will start getting bitter
01[16:05] <Brehon[NPO]> And then we lose completely
01[16:05] <Brehon[NPO]> And we give MK and the like exactly what they want.
[16:06] <tf905[Fark]> Yeah. When really we should have all just beat the snot out of them and had a Dr. Pepper enjoying the peace and quiet.
01[16:10] <Brehon[NPO]> heh
01[16:12] <Brehon[NPO]> btw I was looking to have this same conversation with Jack, but haven't seen him yet
[16:13] <tf905[Fark]> He usually gets on around 7 Server, iirc.
01[16:13] <Brehon[NPO]> yeah
[16:13] <tf905[Fark]> I'd definitely like his input as well so we're all on the same page.
01[16:14] <Brehon[NPO]> agreed
01[16:14] <Brehon[NPO]> I was hopefull I could catch you guys at once
[16:16] <tf905[Fark]> Caught me at a lucky time, not much at work this minute.
01[16:16] <Brehon[NPO]> haha same
01[16:20] <Brehon[NPO]> What do you think of something like this? Mind you I am taking for granted the ceasing of hostilities, no re-entry....
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> FARK hereby agrees to submit to the NPO a review of seven stouts of their choice as a peace exchange.
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> FAN hereby agrees to submit to the NPO a review of seven armaments of their choice as a peace exchange.
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> NPO wishes to make the following statement:
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> FARK wishes to make the following statement:
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> FAN wishes to make the following statement:
01[16:21] <Brehon[NPO]> In the statement part, each can put whatever they want so long as it isn't inflammatory. This would be everyone's ability to give an atta boy or what have you.
[16:22] <tf905[Fark]> hang on, sorry. Talking to a client real fast.
01[16:23] <Brehon[NPO]> np at all
[16:36] <tf905[Fark]> Ok, so far I'm liking it. Lemme run this by my .gov folks and chit chat with FAN.
01[16:37] <Brehon[NPO]> Yeah and if you see jack let him know I am lookign for him
[16:37] <tf905[Fark]> Let's keep our channel open and see what we come up with, fair?
01[16:37] <Brehon[NPO]> Absolutely
[16:37] <tf905[Fark]> Will do.
01[16:37] <Brehon[NPO]> If he asks what about... our conversation of course and I am doing Bootleg Radio tonight
[16:37] <tf905[Fark]> Ok, nice!
01[16:38] <Brehon[NPO]> I may be giving you guys !@#$ (emoticon removed)
01[16:38] <Brehon[NPO]> Just saying (emoticon removed)
[16:38] <tf905[Fark]> lol
01[16:38] <Brehon[NPO]> We could always do negotiations on air (emoticon removed)
[16:38] <tf905[Fark]> And torment the world with my Texas accent?
[16:38] <tf905[Fark]> XD
01[16:38] <Brehon[NPO]> hahah
01[16:39] <Brehon[NPO]> Personality is personality
[16:39] <tf905[Fark]> heh
01[16:40] <Brehon[NPO]> I gotta tell you... for us its like we have shocked everyone with no reps that we set the bar at a point you guys have to come up with something else (emoticon removed)
[16:46] <tf905[Fark]> Mr_Vicarious[Fark]: Also, ask if we can submit previously done stouts, or if they must be novel beers?
01[16:47] <Brehon[NPO]> its all fun, it would be disappointing to have previous stuff :(
[16:47] <tf905[Fark]> Concur.
06[16:47] * tf905[Fark] gets the cattle prod to his lazy .gov
01[16:47] <Brehon[NPO]> heh
Session Close: Wed Jan 11 19:00:03 2012
[/spoiler]


On the 13th I am contacted by Jack Tarr about some modifications. Still to this point there is generally "I think we can't get this passed through government" "I will talk to our government" but never, we accept these terms. Considering some with say I should read "intentions" I call complete bs to that. When you deny a form of white peace after you attack someone and lose, your "intentions" are out the door.

[spoiler]
Session Start: Fri Jan 13 20:11:24 2012
Session Ident: Jack_Tarr[FAN]
[20:11] Session Ident: Jack_Tarr[FAN] (Coldfront, Brehon[NPO]) (removed to not violate rules)
[20:11] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> You around youg man?
01[20:11] <Brehon[NPO]> I am indeed Uncle Jack... whats up?
[20:12] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Just wanted to touch base on your latest proposal
01[20:12] <Brehon[NPO]> Yeah?
[20:12] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I believe I have enough support to get it done with very slight wording modifications
01[20:12] <Brehon[NPO]> k... what modifications?
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> We would like it to look like this. Reasning is since the entire fron is closing we do this for one and all:
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> All parties agree to a ceasing of hostilities between one another (this would be a listing of all parties on both sides.
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> FARK and FAN hereby agree to not re-enter the conflict
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> FARK hereby agrees to submit a review of seven stouts of their choice as a peace exchange.
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> FAN hereby agrees to submit a review of seven armaments of their choice as a peace exchange.
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> NPO wishes to make the following statement:
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> FARK wishes to make the following statement:
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> FAN wishes to make the following statement:
[20:15] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> In the statement part, each can put whatever they want so long as it isn't inflammatory. This would be everyone's ability to give an atta boy or what have you.
[20:16] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> We have pretty much picked out the guns already...each .gov is picking one...total 7
01[20:16] <Brehon[NPO]> That is fine... if FARK is on the same page, we can pull EVERYONE together and finalize it all.
[20:17] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I am confident FARK is ok with this in fact they mentioned they WANT to do beer essays.
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> The edit makes sense
[20:17] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> The hardest part for me is the "statement"
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> Well they are the reason I even had that in there. Everyone wants to have fun, so lets do it, was the reason I wrote it that way.
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> You could opt not to do the statement
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> Its a choice, not a need.
01[20:17] <Brehon[NPO]> I think FARK had a statement they wanted to make
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ahhhh I did not know that.
01[20:18] <Brehon[NPO]> The only thing I added is any statement can't be inflamemtory
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, ok, weekends are tough but let me get to work on this.
[20:18] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I agree with that
[20:19] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> But that's why its difficult. Everything FAN says and does inflames somebody :P
01[20:19] <Brehon[NPO]> Alright... I would like to see this wrapped up for everyone to meet (and I mean everyone) 1 time to finalize and then end this by say Monday evening.
[20:20] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, given nobody is around weekends, I'll do my best but I think Tuesday is more realistic
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> That would be acceptable
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> Sorry doing a few things at onces
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> But yeah Tuesday could work fine
[20:21] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> On the lulz side of things, Doomee has 5 infra left so some nato tool nuked her today :P
01[20:21] <Brehon[NPO]> hhe
01[20:21] <Brehon[NPO]> Fun is fun
[20:21] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> yup
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ok, let me get to work, ttyl
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> I just need to hear from FARK and we can set up a meeting for tuesday with everyone to finalize?
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> OK, I will post this log up for them
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> Sounds good
[20:23] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Happy football
01[20:23] <Brehon[NPO]> (emoticon removed)
01[20:23] <Brehon[NPO]> My Bears are out for the year :(
[20:37] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> OK sir, I'll advise as things progress.
01[20:37] <Brehon[NPO]> Sounds good
[21:56] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Do you remember Dale Evans?
01[21:56] <Brehon[NPO]> Nope
[21:56] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Roy Rogers?
01[21:57] <Brehon[NPO]> If we are talking RL... yes I know who Roy Rogers is
[21:57] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> yes, RL
01[21:58] <Brehon[NPO]> What about him?
[21:58] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I fear our statement will Phail as nobody will know who they are or their theme song Happy Trails
01[21:58] <Brehon[NPO]> HAPPY TRAILS!!!! lol
01[21:58] <Brehon[NPO]> win
[21:58] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> But anyway, phail or not we are ready lol
01[21:58] <Brehon[NPO]> I haven't heard from FARK
[21:59] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> But it has been modified
01[21:59] <Brehon[NPO]> ?
[21:59] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Nobody around
[21:59] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I have changed the words to be mofre CN appropriate
01[21:59] <Brehon[NPO]> ahh okay
Session Close: Fri Jan 13 22:09:45 2012
[/spoiler]


At his point, even after offering lighter terms, I had enough. I had also just come out of a negotiations meeting where it appeared Sparta was having issues with "admitting defeat" and comments about "no re-entry". My general patients were at an end and I realized this was going to impact the CN world far beyond this conflict. So I did my "Opportunity Lost" post AND notified FARK about it.

[spoiler]
Session Start: Fri Jan 13 10:46:11 2012
Session Ident: tf905[Fark]
01[10:46] <Brehon[NPO]> I wanted you to see this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108334
[12:47] <tf905[Fark]> ?
[12:48] <tf905[Fark]> With all due respect Brehon, did I miss something in the past twelve hours?
01[12:48] <Brehon[NPO]> Hold on on the phone and no you didn't miss anything. I was sharing my thoughts.
[12:51] <tf905[Fark]> k
01[13:21] <Brehon[NPO]> I am at least semi back, in the middle of a teleconference
[13:22] <tf905[Fark]> Fair enough
[13:22] <tf905[Fark]> I was just concerned that I had missed something since last night.
01[13:22] <Brehon[NPO]> So anyway that post is my thoughts and what I feel the implications are for the future for the cn community as a whole
[13:24] <tf905[Fark]> Ok
[13:27] <tf905[Fark]> Just was making sure. I didn't want any miscommunication between us, so I didn't know if I'd missed a query or something. Haven't been in front of the computer today since 4 AM.
01[13:27] <Brehon[NPO]> No... I was blown away by the Sparta talks last night.
[13:29] <tf905[Fark]> I thought that was a done deal.
[13:29] <tf905[Fark]> ?
01[13:30] <Brehon[NPO]> There was some issue, not sure if it has since been resolved.
[13:32] <tf905[Fark]> I'll check with Sparta.
01[13:33] <Brehon[NPO]> I know people think I am being a fool... but I am seriously concerned about the CN community and how all of this will affect the game long term.
[13:33] <tf905[Fark]> You have a right to share your own opinion.
[13:34] <tf905[Fark]> My concern was and still is, peacing this war.
Session Close: Fri Jan 13 14:25:59 2012
[/spoiler]


We have now arrived at January 14th, 16 days after our initial "admit defeat, no re-entry, cease hostilities" and 3 days after we basically gave them terms they suggested (I know.. what was I thinking). Our gov had enough and we were being taken advantage of. Our past and even our present was being used to play games in such a flippant manner we had no choice but to end that kind of bs. When the Emperor let me know to take care of it, see what they want and make it happen, it didn't me go back on her word. I admitted my error personally and directly with TF905 (he was the first I could find) and re-delivered the original EXTREMELY LIGHT but logical terms:

[spoiler]
Session Start: Sat Jan 14 23:32:50 2012
Session Ident: tf905[Fark]
01[23:32] <Brehon[NPO]> You around?
[23:33] <tf905[Fark]> Hey Brehon
01[23:33] <Brehon[NPO]> Heya there
01[23:33] <Brehon[NPO]> So here is whats going on
01[23:33] <Brehon[NPO]> I screwed up and misunderstood my conversation with Mary
[23:33] <tf905[Fark]> ok...
01[23:34] <Brehon[NPO]> The terms I gave are not acceptable by her. This is 100% my fault.
[23:34] <tf905[Fark]> You have got to be !@#$ting me.
01[23:34] <Brehon[NPO]> No, unfortunately I am not
01[23:34] <Brehon[NPO]> I felt I needed to tell you directly seeing as I am the one the screwed up.
01[23:35] <Brehon[NPO]> that screwed up rather.
[23:35] <tf905[Fark]> This was pretty much a done deal.
[23:35] <tf905[Fark]> Where does that leave us now?
[23:35] <tf905[Fark]> And I appreciate you coming personally.
01[23:35] <Brehon[NPO]> Not my fondest day
[23:36] <tf905[Fark]> You discuss this with Jack/Mr Smyth?
01[23:37] <Brehon[NPO]> Admission of defeat and wrong doing in the pre-emption, no re-entry, ceasing of all hostilities.
01[23:37] <Brehon[NPO]> No I have not, I have just finished a very very very long meeting with my Emperor and the IO's
01[23:37] <Brehon[NPO]> You were the first I found.
[23:38] <tf905[Fark]> Great.
[23:39] <tf905[Fark]> I have been publicly lynched for three days over a deal I thought was a done thing.
01[23:39] <Brehon[NPO]> There will be no budging on us for these terms, an official response is needed by Wednesday.
01[23:39] <Brehon[NPO]> I'll trade you shoes
[23:39] <tf905[Fark]> To say that I am disappointed is putting it mildly.
06[23:39] * Brehon[NPO] nods
[23:39] <tf905[Fark]> The point was to end this on friendly terms and build relations.
01[23:39] <Brehon[NPO]> I could not expect otherwise.
[23:40] <tf905[Fark]> I recognize the position you are in, but I am now the laughingstock of my AA once this is revealed.
01[23:40] <Brehon[NPO]> I can understand your position. This was my error (the previous terms)
01[23:41] <Brehon[NPO]> I don't have more answers for you.
[23:41] <tf905[Fark]> Switching to off the record here...
01[23:41] <Brehon[NPO]> k
[23:42] <tf905[Fark]> I am facing re-election in two weeks. I have terms that have failed and GOONS is now just toying with a close ally of ours giving them terms, NPL does them and GOONS replies "unnacceptable! Why don't you do this for us instead?" and they give them something else to do.
[23:43] <tf905[Fark]> They did two rewrites of a play, added a musical number and now have to make an "amusing MS paint picture."
[23:43] <tf905[Fark]> So, on both sides, I have a difficult choice to make.
[23:43] <tf905[Fark]> I'll talk this over with my .gov and with FAN.
06[23:44] * Brehon[NPO] nods
[23:44] <tf905[Fark]> And again, I appreciate you being so forthcoming.
01[23:44] <Brehon[NPO]> Not my greatest day
01[23:44] <Brehon[NPO]> I remain accountable for my actions and errors
01[23:44] <Brehon[NPO]> not much else to do
[23:45] <tf905[Fark]> Fair enough, I am sorry that Mary decided differently.
[23:46] <tf905[Fark]> It was a square deal.
[23:46] <tf905[Fark]> And the statement I had prepared was actually pretty friendly, fun and respectful
01[23:46] <Brehon[NPO]> My apologies for making this worse and screwing it up.
[23:46] <tf905[Fark]> And yeah, hopeful as well.
01[23:46] <Brehon[NPO]> I actually have no doubt.
[23:48] <tf905[Fark]> Alright, well I appreciate you stopping by and being candid with me.
[23:48] <tf905[Fark]> I really do appreciate it.
06[23:49] * Brehon[NPO] nods
01[23:49] <Brehon[NPO]> !@#$ sandwiches for everyone it seems
[23:51] <tf905[Fark]> Yep
[23:51] <tf905[Fark]> lol
01[23:52] <Brehon[NPO]> Soon as I see Jack I will talk to him about it. I am sure that conversation will go like the rest of my day today
[23:52] <tf905[Fark]> Don't envy you there. I absolutely hate days like that and I've had a few in this game.
[23:52] <tf905[Fark]> heh
01[23:53] <Brehon[NPO]> heh
Session Time: Sun Jan 15 00:00:00 2012
Session Close: Sun Jan 15 08:08:40 2012
[/spoiler]

This was followed up by my conversation with Jack Tarr on January 15th

[spoiler]
Session Start: Sun Jan 15 19:52:16 2012
Session Ident: Jack_Tarr[FAN]
[19:52] Session Ident: Jack_Tarr[FAN] (Coldfront, Brehon[NPO]) (removed)
[19:52] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ummmmmmm
01[20:20] <Brehon[NPO]> Evening Jack
[20:21] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Do you have some time available Brehon?
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> For you Uncle Jack.. yes
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I read the log with 905 and you.
[20:22] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> wtf!!!!!!!!
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> Alright was going to ask if you did
01[20:22] <Brehon[NPO]> It is exactly as I stated in that convo
[20:23] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, I have some questions and comments
06[20:23] * Brehon[NPO] nods
01[20:23] <Brehon[NPO]> You have my undivided attention
[20:23] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> So was this entire thing just a sham from the beginning?
01[20:23] <Brehon[NPO]> I absolutely swear to you this was not a sham
[20:24] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Was Mary aware you were negotiating with us on her behalf?
01[20:24] <Brehon[NPO]> Yes
01[20:24] <Brehon[NPO]> I was informed I misunderstood her.
[20:24] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> And she stabbed you in the back why?
01[20:24] <Brehon[NPO]> She didn't stab me in the back
[20:25] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> What do you mean you misunderstood?
01[20:25] <Brehon[NPO]> Basically I misunderstood her intent on what was allowed
01[20:26] <Brehon[NPO]> I know in our conversation you asked if it had her blessing... I did believe that was accurate when I told you it was.
[20:26] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> This was far too simple for a misunderstanding like that Brehon.
[20:27] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> There is more to this.
01[20:27] <Brehon[NPO]> I give you my word, if it has any meaning left, this was not a set up.
01[20:28] <Brehon[NPO]> There was never a time I did not talk in good faith and with what I understood was the desire of the Emperor.
[20:28] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Never the less, there is more to this than you are sharing with us. As I said, this misunderstanding just doesnt hold water given the simplicity of all this.
[20:29] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> So, is this a done deal now or do you still have avenues you can take to try to attain peace?
01[20:30] <Brehon[NPO]> I only hvae what I have given to TF (which is for both FAN and FARK)
[20:30] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Let me rephrase my question
[20:31] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Do you believe there is anything more you can do to change NPO's mind regarding this situation?
01[20:31] <Brehon[NPO]> Honestly Jack... I don't know
[20:32] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, if you don't know, I sure don't
01[20:32] <Brehon[NPO]> The terrible part, is at this exact moment, I just don't
[20:34] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. When Cortath first became emperor, we had lots of discussions where I told him how I fealt a leopard can't change its spots....
[20:34] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> meaning same NPO different faces.
06[20:34] * Brehon[NPO] nods
[20:35] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Mary and her hunger for power, control and her ego have now proven that beyond any shadow of a doubt.
01[20:35] <Brehon[NPO]> All I can offer is my apologies for this situation, as it falls on my shoulders.
[20:35] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> You had actually convinced us that CN could be a different game with new adventures to be shared. I actually believed NPO may have changed their attitude.
[20:36] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Fool me twice, shame on me.
01[20:36] <Brehon[NPO]> I still believe it can be.
01[20:36] <Brehon[NPO]> Yes, I understand
01[20:37] <Brehon[NPO]> I have no counter for you Jack, were I you I would feel the exact same way.
[20:37] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> So, here is where I stand. We had a deal which we (FARK and FAN) had agreed to after negotiating in faith with NPO's Regent who negotiated with the approval of the emperor.
06[20:37] * Brehon[NPO] listens
[20:38] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> OOC what pisses me off more than anything is the time spent to put all the stuff together for the peace announcemet. Many folks spent hours.
[20:38] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> IC
[20:39] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> If this is Mary's final decision, so be it I can't change it but of course she really makes the fool of you in the process. Managerial Skills fail!!!!!!
01[20:41] <Brehon[NPO]> I am sincerely sorry in that right now I just can't offer more Jack.
[20:41] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> If this is NPO's final decision, then they prove me right for the last time. FAN will fight as long as Mary is in power. We will continue to trash your lowest ranks until nobody wants to join NPO out of fear of being mauled by a group of angry gnats.
01[20:41] <Brehon[NPO]> I understand.
[20:42] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> We wanted and accepted peace after negotiating in good faith...NPO then made a sham out of it all and insists on war.
[20:42] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Are you the only IO in favor of what you had accomplished?
01[20:43] <Brehon[NPO]> You know I can't answer that.
[20:43] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I knew you WOULDN'T
01[20:44] <Brehon[NPO]> At this time, Jack my hands are tied.
[20:44] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I am hopeful that you aren't the only one in NPO that would like to try out a "new world".
[20:44] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Should I give you a day or 2 to work some magic or should I just procede with what I need to do imediately?
[20:45] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I know you have worked really hard
[20:45] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> because of that a cpl more days wouldn't nmatter much if you feel there is still hope
01[20:46] <Brehon[NPO]> Wednesday is the deadline, lets work for that day alright?
[20:47] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Deadline for what?
01[20:47] <Brehon[NPO]> That was the deadline for an answer on the terms
[20:48] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> The answer to the terms presented to us was yes.
[20:49] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I mean I even wrote a song for you !@#$%^&*
01[20:50] <Brehon[NPO]> Jack I can only offer sincere apologies at this moment.
[20:52] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Anyway, I will try to get FARK to agree to wait till Wednesday. However, I can tell you right now that our response to Mary's new terms will be a quote of General Anthony McAuliffe when the Germans demanded his surrender
[20:53] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> If you want me between now and wednesday, I will be around as always
06[20:53] * Brehon[NPO] nods
[20:55] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ttyl
01[20:56] <Brehon[NPO]> indeed
Session Close: Sun Jan 15 21:54:46 2012
[/spoiler]

I am guilty of trying to be nice, I readily admit that. For the long history of FAN and NPO, I actually get them and they were the motivation behind various things. Guilt complex some will call it, yet guilt isn't what I felt. Pity would be more accurate. Here is FAN, able to survive two years of being held down. They got their revenge a year ago and they feel they need to do more. I felt (and still feel) its best to let it just go away, the problem is they are allowing the exact same benefit I have given FAN to extend to FARK. FARK who had issues with NPO years ago then NOTHING and somehow they are the same. Taking this line of thought, I had a question to ask Jack Tarr:

[spoiler]
Session Start: Mon Jan 16 19:31:53 2012
Session Ident: Jack_Tarr[FAN]
01[19:33] <Brehon[NPO]> You available Uncle Jack?
[19:37] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Sort of Brehon, wuts up?
01[19:43] <Brehon[NPO]> sorry had to go afk
[19:44] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> no big deal, I am just watching the hockey game and my BP rise
01[19:45] <Brehon[NPO]> So question and not an offer, if we offer FAN simply No-entry, and a ceasing of hostilies, nothing else attached, how would you feel? Considering the history between us I personally think that is adequate?
01[19:45] <Brehon[NPO]> This would not be offered to FARK
01[19:46] <Brehon[NPO]> and know I am not offering, this is a personal inquiry
[19:48] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> If its not for both of us we will decline.
01[19:49] <Brehon[NPO]> Alright
[19:50] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I'm surprised there was any doubt in your mind.
01[19:51] <Brehon[NPO]> hold on mouse died
01[19:52] <Brehon[NPO]> There wasn't
01[19:52] <Brehon[NPO]> I still needed to confirm
[19:52] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> heh
[19:52] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> fair enuffff
[19:56] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Anything else I can do for you?
01[19:56] <Brehon[NPO]> That is it for right now
[19:57] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> wut time wednesday?
01[19:58] <Brehon[NPO]> In a meeting that is about to start with everyone on that front
[19:59] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ok
01[21:23] <Brehon[NPO]> Finished the meeting with everyone and am in one with TF905... terms are the same Admission of defeat, no-reentry, ceaseing of hostilities. Deadline for an answer remains Wednesday
[21:36] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Well, as I told you several times, we had an agreement. You have made that agreement go away. Now I have a question for you to pass on to "everyone.
[21:36] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> "
01[21:36] <Brehon[NPO]> alright
[21:42] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> My question is: "Why everyone Why?"
[21:42] <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> You will have our response by Wednesday
01[21:42] <Brehon[NPO]> alright
Session Close: Mon Jan 16 23:44:25 2012
[/spoiler]


You will notice a two hour break in that convo, during which I had a conversation with TF905. I have to say it was interesting watching him being careful earlier to now "going off" a bit.

[spoiler]
Session Start: Mon Jan 16 20:47:34 2012
Session Ident: tf905[Fark]
01[20:47] <Brehon[NPO]> When you get a second, lets talk
[21:05] <tf905[Fark]> Evening, Brehon
01[21:05] <Brehon[NPO]> Evening, you doing alright?
[21:05] <tf905[Fark]> Hanging in there, you?
01[21:06] <Brehon[NPO]> meetings all day... both work and here (emoticon removed)
[21:06] <tf905[Fark]> Heh, hear ya on that.
[21:06] <tf905[Fark]> Busy indeed.
01[21:06] <Brehon[NPO]> So I met with everyone on this front
[21:06] <tf905[Fark]> k
01[21:07] <Brehon[NPO]> There isn't going to be budging from the admission of defeat/surrender
[21:07] <tf905[Fark]> And?
01[21:08] <Brehon[NPO]> I am asking you guys to accept it so we can all move on.
[21:08] <tf905[Fark]> And?
01[21:08] <Brehon[NPO]> If Wednesday comes and its denied, things are going to get worse.
01[21:09] <Brehon[NPO]> This is not a threat, I am giving you a heads up.
[21:09] <tf905[Fark]> Did you offer the same to FAN?
01[21:09] <Brehon[NPO]> I hadn't finished the meeting yet when I talked to Jack
01[21:09] <Brehon[NPO]> But I am about to tell him the same
01[21:10] <Brehon[NPO]> I had asked him if FAN was allowed to drop the surrender, considering the history between NPO and FAN, could we move forward.
01[21:10] <Brehon[NPO]> He said same terms for both
01[21:10] <Brehon[NPO]> I have not updated him since the meeting.
01[21:10] <Brehon[NPO]> My query to him was a private inquiry and not an official one.
[21:11] <tf905[Fark]> You should have stuck to your original bargain. The one we all agreed to.
[21:11] <tf905[Fark]> This is YOUR fault.
[21:11] <tf905[Fark]> Not mine.
[21:11] <tf905[Fark]> Then trying to give separate terms to FAN?
[21:12] <tf905[Fark]> C'mon, man.
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> You are correct, I have an error. But the original error is FARKS
[21:12] <tf905[Fark]> Bull
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> I asked FAN a question because we have a history with FAN
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> A very long history.
[21:12] <tf905[Fark]> And we have no long history?
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> I am open with you about that.
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> No, we have issues then a long period of nothing
01[21:12] <Brehon[NPO]> FAN and NPO have been at it for years.
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> The original error was top/iron's then yours for supporting it. We entered to defend our treaty partner against someone making aggressive overtures towards our treaty partner.
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> We had a deal
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> You yanked it back
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> GOONS is !@#$@#$ with NPL because of it
01[21:14] <Brehon[NPO]> And you guys should have seriously taken the first white/offwhite peace offered instead of sucking on pride. I am, was, will remain very open about my $%&@ up.
01[21:14] <Brehon[NPO]> But you are not ... agian NOT the victim here. We both went in eyes open so just stop that.
[21:14] <tf905[Fark]> Meanwhile, NPL is getting beaten to a pulp by GOONS based on your treaty partners giving them an in
[21:14] <tf905[Fark]> And they will keep playing games.
[21:15] <tf905[Fark]> I am not playing those games
[21:15] <tf905[Fark]> Stick to your original bargain.
01[21:15] <Brehon[NPO]> The original is EXACTLY what you have now
[21:15] <tf905[Fark]> The one we agreed to, sir.
01[21:15] <Brehon[NPO]> Actually you never agreed to it.
[21:15] <tf905[Fark]> !@#$%^&*
01[21:16] <Brehon[NPO]> Really... because I will be happy to drop the logs where you said you felt you could get it through
[21:16] <tf905[Fark]> FAN and I did not waste hours coming up with statements and reviews and so on.
01[21:16] <Brehon[NPO]> Yet, since we are getting all technical now... did either of you say... NPO we accept?
[21:16] <tf905[Fark]> And I would happily drop logs where YOU gave terms and then "OOPS, I DUN GOOFED."
01[21:16] <Brehon[NPO]> I will happily drop them as well
01[21:16] <Brehon[NPO]> I have been open with EVERYONE about it
[21:17] <tf905[Fark]> You still made the offer, we were earnestly working to make it a final deal. Then you turn 180 degrees and yank it.
[21:17] <tf905[Fark]> You were acting on behalf of Her Majesty's government.
01[21:17] <Brehon[NPO]> You are correct
[21:18] <tf905[Fark]> Sorry, but what do you seem to be missing here?
01[21:18] <Brehon[NPO]> And I have owned up to that mistake. Doesn't change where we are right here adn now.
[21:18] <tf905[Fark]> Give me the same terms as FAN, this ends.
[21:18] <tf905[Fark]> We all move on.
[21:18] <tf905[Fark]> No picking favorites.
01[21:18] <Brehon[NPO]> Terms for both you and fan... Admit defeat, no re-entry, cease all hostilities.
01[21:19] <Brehon[NPO]> Those are the terms
01[21:19] <Brehon[NPO]> That is as low as they go.
[21:19] <tf905[Fark]> This is going nowhere.
[21:19] <tf905[Fark]> You went back on your word.
[21:19] <tf905[Fark]> Now you are playing games with me.
01[21:19] <Brehon[NPO]> No I am not
[21:19] <tf905[Fark]> Really?
[21:19] <tf905[Fark]> Then why offer FAN a possible different deal?
[21:20] <tf905[Fark]> How is that not playing games?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> I just told you I asked FAN. I didn't offer jack or !@#$, I specifically stated it was a personal question... QUESTION
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> You available Uncle Jack?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Sort of Brehon, wuts up?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> sorry had to go afk
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> no big deal, I am just watching the hockey game and my BP rise
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> So question and not an offer, if we offer FAN simply No-entry, and a ceasing of hostilies, nothing else attached, how would you feel? Considering the history between us I personally think that is adequate?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> This would not be offered to FARK
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> and know I am not offering, this is a personal inquiry
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> If its not for both of us we will decline.
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> Alright
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> I'm surprised there was any doubt in your mind.
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> hold on mouse died
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> There wasn't
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> I still needed to confirm
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> heh
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> fair enuffff
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> Anything else I can do for you?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> That is it for right now
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> wut time wednesday?
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Brehon[NPO]> In a meeting that is about to start with everyone on that front
01[21:20] <Brehon[NPO]> <Jack_Tarr[FAN]> ok
[21:20] <tf905[Fark]> You are the Regent of NPO. Even asking that question carries weight
[21:21] <tf905[Fark]> <tf905[Fark]> You are the Regent of NPO. Even asking that question carries weight
01[21:21] <Brehon[NPO]> Then carry this weight... the current terms require an answer on by wednesday.
01[21:21] <Brehon[NPO]> All those on that front await your answer.
01[21:21] <Brehon[NPO]> The terms are identical to FARK and FAN
[21:22] <tf905[Fark]> Then FAN and I shall be discussing this.
[21:22] <tf905[Fark]> Together.
01[21:22] <Brehon[NPO]> I would hope so
01[21:23] <Brehon[NPO]> I have now shared the same terms with him.
Session Close: Mon Jan 16 23:44:25 2012
[/spoiler]

I was foolish, I readily admit that. I actually believed the words FARK and FAN were trying to play. I believed they were looking for fun (and frankly FAN probably is), but FARK? No for all your talk you play on the world political forum and have been a dick to plenty of alliances. I gave you trust of sincerity and I know it was wasted.

You can't say there was an agreement. An offer was made, you never accepted you were working on it. You waited 12 days to answer our first VERY generous offer. Then for basically 4 days you were "working on" the proposed terms. Then when they are pulled (due to my error or not, you are right they were pulled) you cried foul about how we should stick to an agreement. YOU NEVER ACCEPTED. Additionally what you are really mad about is your spin in the end has failed.

Tomorrow the offer expires and I can tell you, it will get worse. This is not a threat, this is the next logical step considering your infantile actions and reactions to a free pass. You have shown that being nice to you does not net results, no matter how sincere. You assumed too much from start to finish. I suggest you snap out of petulance and unscrew yourselves.

Edited by Brehon
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"Out of touch with reality" comes to mind. Anybody who has even remotely been involved with some of the tough negotiations or reps in the last few years will have to laugh at the fuss being made over admitting a simple defeat.

And "hours" spent on working for a peace deal? Some of us have devoted regular workweeks over several months. You have the peace that every alliance who has been in a tough spot dreams of. Take it, and salvage what little tiny bit of respect the world has left for you.

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So they wanted white peace, you wouldn't give it to them. When terms (essentially white peace) that seemed acceptable to both sides were being drafted, you made a public post accusing them of not accepting white peace. Then you went to them and lied saying it wasn't acceptable (not saying you were withdrawing from the agreement) to your leader. Furthermore, you say it was 3 days between the agreement of terms and you withdrawing, but it was actually 1: Jack Tarr gave you a counter-proposal you agreed to, then the next day you withdrew.

This is not to your credit lol

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your patients.

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Patience indeed, sue me :)

Yes indeed take 1 part that is not the complete. Additionally notice I have no issues owning up to my mistake. But then I don't expect you or NpO to understand that concept.

As for Jack's changes, I said that was fine... we still did not have Acceptance by them so take your elawyer and return to a hole.

Edited by Brehon
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You didn't admit error, you lied. You were as dishonest there as you're being now. You didn't ask "why haven't you accepted?", you didn't tell them you were getting impatient, you didn't ever say "these terms are good until ____". Instead I see that they were finishing up their end of the terms for release when you came out of the blue and (untruthfully) told them that you didn't mean to offer the terms in the first place!

How absurd! And [i]I'm[/i] the e-lawyer?

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[21:18] (@Farrin[NPO]): I wasn't aware that it was good sportsmanship to pre-empt someone =)

This is my favorite line so far, though the OP is filled with lots of zingers by NPO.
Edit:
Oh also NPL's plays both sucked and they never did add a music number.

Edit2:
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> We had a deal
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> You yanked it back
[21:13] <tf905[Fark]> GOONS is !@#$@#$ with NPL because of it

Not true, our choice had virtually nothing to do with NPO's actions. Also despite what some people might think, we want people to fulfill our terms are get out, we're not out to disband anyone.

Edited by Sardonic
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:pats Doitzel on the head:

How do you accept terms: You go, I accept. Not I am thinking about it, not I am working on it, but rather... wait for it... by actually saying "I accept the terms" or "I accept".

But then I expect that to fall short in your understanding considering the way your allies "defended" you... ie didn't attack anyone attacking you :)

Bravo sir, bravo.

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So you admit that you lied, then?

I am not surprised you are unfamiliar with how democracy works. I am surprised that you can sit there and smile about lying to them while they're praising the respect and candour with which they thought you were conducting yourselves.

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[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326832597' post='2901639']
So you admit that you lied, then?
[/quote]

This is called trying too hard.

We're offering these guys the closest thing to white peace practically possible. We're not out to lie to them, mentally screw with them, or whatever. We have no reason, we have no ulterior motive. So put the "Evil NPO" narrative back in the closet, please.

Edited by Letum
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This seems to me to be the kind of mistake you can't just own up to by saying "I'm owning up to this mistake." Mind you, I don't like FARK, but I can't fault them for what has transpired in these logs...

... and if they won't take the original offer, I see no problems with continuing the war

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[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326832774' post='2901640']
This is called trying too hard.please.
[/quote]

[quote]Our gov had enough and we were being taken advantage of. Our past and even our present was being used to play games in such a flippant manner we had no choice but to end that kind of bs. When the Emperor let me know to take care of it, see what they want and make it happen, it didn't me go back on her word. I admitted my error personally and directly with TF905[...][/quote]

This is what is called a lie. I guess we could also call it "being disingenuous in the peace process" or "negotiating under false pretenses", but I think "lying" fits it best.

You're welcome.

Edited by Doitzel
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[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326833219' post='2901646']
This is what is called a lie. I guess we could also call it "being disingenuous in the peace process" or "negotiating under false pretenses", but I think "lying" fits it best.
[/quote]

Actually, no. That is a frustrated coalition having to put up with way too much immaturity and foolishness, and Brehon making a mistake in his honest attempt to find something one the spot that was 100% acceptable to everyone. It's called miscommunication. It happens during negotiations. Were we to have put a disclaimer about double-checking, it could have been avoided. Were our rivals to have been clear they wanted to start immediate work on them, it could have been avoided. Were we to even have talked to each other more often, it could have been avoided. It is not nice for FARK and FAN, yes, and they have our apology for that, but ultimately it should not be turned into a bigger issue than it is. Compared to difficulties that have arisen in several-month-long negotiations we have gone through before, this is trivial.

And when you factor in the "harshness" of the terms even being discussed, it is ridiculous. Many wouldn't (and maybe shouldn't) have even bothered trying to find a compromise.

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[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1326833795' post='2901649']
Can I get a tl;dr on what the logs say?
[/quote]
Tl:DR
NPO Offered "Beige Peace" Admit defeat, no reps. Fark/Fan said no and counteroffered with good sportsmanship, NPO Said no. Brehon thinking he was working with the emperor's approval attempted to negotiate something else. The plan wasn't up to Mary's standards. Many logs of Brehon apologizing for it not working out. Fark/FAN butthurt but still ignore the fact that the original offer was quite generous.

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[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1326832597' post='2901639']
So you admit that you lied, then?
[/quote]

This is called "going too far with an old childish grudge"... I would have thought that after many years, Doitzel, you would have grown to simply recognize inmaturity in others at first sight, but it seems I was wrong...

This is all FAN pulling their old time "baw baw I am so the victim" crap and dragging FARK in it... What is it that FAN wants? Another eternal war? Please, that gets old and boring... AND WE ARE NOT INTERESTED!!!! We basically GIFTED you Peace. We just asked you to publicly say you were defeated... Guys, you ARE DEFEATED!!!! WHat is the point of prolonging this forever and ever???

How boring...

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[quote name='Gumpper' timestamp='1326833938' post='2901652']
Tl:DR
NPO Offered "Beige Peace" Admit defeat, no reps. Fark/Fan said no and counteroffered with good sportsmanship, NPO Said no. Brehon thinking he was working with the emperor's approval attempted to negotiate something else. The plan wasn't up to Mary's standards. Many logs of Brehon apologizing for it not working out. Fark/FAN butthurt but still ignore the fact that the original offer was quite generous.
[/quote]


Oh okay, thank you.

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[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1326833721' post='2901648']
Actually, no. That is a frustrated coalition having to put up with way too much immaturity and foolishness, and Brehon making a mistake in his honest attempt to find something one the spot that was 100% acceptable to everyone. It's called miscommunication. It happens during negotiations. Were we to have put a disclaimer about double-checking, it could have been avoided. Were our rivals to have been clear they wanted to start immediate work on them, it could have been avoided. Were we to even have talked to each other more often, it could have been avoided. It is not nice for FARK and FAN, yes, and they have our apology for that, but ultimately it should not be turned into a bigger issue than it is. Compared to difficulties that have arisen in several-month-long negotiations we have gone through before, this is trivial.

And when you factor in the "harshness" of the terms even being discussed, it is ridiculous. Many wouldn't (and maybe shouldn't) have even bothered trying to find a compromise.
[/quote]
Which part of FAN and Fark's conduct was immature, precisely?

Brehon himself said that it wasn't the case that they were unacceptable to Mary [i]at the start[/i]. His stated reason HERE for the withdrawal from the terms was that FAN and Fark were taking too long. There was no framework or communication for what, exactly, constituted "taking too long". It was an arbitrary decision made by Pacific without communicating or being honest about their intentions.

You seem to agree on the whole that this is entirely a miscommunication, so I wonder why you're in here defending this rather poor attempt at spinning this in Pacific's favour. Brehon is decrying FAN and Fark taking too long to consult their governments [b]then hiding behind the lie that he didn't properly consult his government to offer terms![/b]

[quote name='Gumpper' timestamp='1326833938' post='2901652']
Tl:DR
NPO Offered "Beige Peace" Admit defeat, no reps. Fark/Fan said no and counteroffered with good sportsmanship, NPO Said no. Brehon thinking he was working with the emperor's approval attempted to negotiate something else. The plan wasn't up to Mary's standards. Many logs of Brehon apologizing for it not working out. Fark/FAN butthurt but still ignore the fact that the original offer was quite generous.
[/quote]
Actually the plans were up to Mary's standards until at some point Pacific decided they didn't want them any more, and they used that as a cop out. Apparently January 14th was when the offer on the terms expired -- FAN and Fark had no way of knowing this, of course, so Pacific made up some lame excuse for withdrawing.

[quote name='Elegarth' timestamp='1326834067' post='2901659']
This is called "going too far with an old childish grudge"... I would have thought that after many years, Doitzel, you would have grown to simply recognize inmaturity in others at first sight, but it seems I was wrong...
[/quote]
Oh please, do get over yourself.

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I really cannot find sympathy for those who will not surrender if they have to admit defeat, or live by a no re-entry clause.

GATO veterans who survived the GATO-1v war would have killed for those terms. Instead we got peace mode=pzi, nuke=pzi, and a goddamn viceroy to secure peace.

Jesus, just man up and admit you lost, what is so goddamn hard about that?

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[quote name='kerschbs' timestamp='1326835327' post='2901670']
I really cannot find sympathy for those who will not surrender if they have to admit defeat, or live by a no re-entry clause.

GATO veterans who survived the GATO-1v war would have killed for those terms. Instead we got peace mode=pzi, nuke=pzi, and a goddamn viceroy to secure peace.

Jesus, just man up and admit you lost, what is so goddamn hard about that?
[/quote]

I propose we return to our tyrannical roots for this conflict. It seems necessary.

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