What should my terms for GOD be?

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1324707746' post='2885457']
These things weren't necessarily world wide issues, but there was a time when GOD/SF wielded enough influence to stand up to - and stop - the hegemony of the day, without CG...
[/quote]

When was this time?

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1324710066' post='2885482']
When was this time?
[/quote]

From sometime after the formation of SF until before we partnered with C&G. Not the entire time, to be sure, but the time exists within those parameters.

I choose not to cite specifics for my own reasons; if you chose to believe that invalidates my argument, so be it. I am not such a sheep, as you or Crymson would charge, that I don't understand what holding back that information does to my stance. Again, as Crysom seems to think doesn't make "sense", even if I was willing to provide evidence that SF wielded power enough to fight back against the hegemony, those unwilling to believe it would still not believe it. So I will let bygones be bygones and not bring up said evidence.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1324710389' post='2885485']
From sometime after the formation of SF until before we partnered with C&G. Not the entire time, to be sure, but the time exists within those parameters.

I choose not to cite specifics for my own reasons; if you chose to believe that invalidates my argument, so be it. I am not such a sheep, as you or Crymson would charge, that I don't understand what holding back that information does to my stance. Again, as Crysom seems to think doesn't make "sense", even if I was willing to provide evidence that SF wielded power enough to fight back against the hegemony, those unwilling to believe it would still not believe it. So I will let bygones be bygones and not bring up said evidence.
[/quote]

SF could have alone stood up to Q etc.? I find that extraordinarily unlikely. Please do provide your "evidence" of it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Crymson

[Bordiga]

I think Kevin McDonald is confusing "willing partners" with "opposition" in his memory of GOD's past relation to the Hegemony.
[quote= Crymson][quote= Kevin Mcdonald]
Simply that TOP believes what it believes, and when even given evidence to the contrary (insofar as "evidence" exists on Bob), it does little to deter TOP from their stance. And that's fine. But why you don't understand how other alliances operate the same way, especially GOD, doesn't make sense to me.[/quote]

This makes no sense.[/quote]

Did you really just give a backhand admission that GOD's members publicly lie?

That's the first step towards overcoming the problem.

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324716917' post='2885522']
SF could have alone stood up to Q etc.? I find that extraordinarily unlikely. Please do provide your "evidence" of it.
[/quote]

I didn't say "Q". I will query you tonight... or on a night that is not Christmas Eve.

Bordiga: We lie as little or as much as any alliance member does on the OWF. It's not so much lying as either propaganda, or only knowing the tiny scraps of info your leaders throw your way and using that. Again, this also applies to TOP or every other alliance to ever exist on Planet Bob.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1324740044' post='2885610']
I didn't say "Q". I will query you tonight... or on a night that is not Christmas Eve.[/quote]

There's no need to query me. Simply post your words on here. I'm sure others are similarly interested in reading this so-called "evidence."

[quote]
Bordiga: We lie as little or as much as any alliance member does on the OWF. It's not so much lying as either propaganda, or only knowing the tiny scraps of info your leaders throw your way and using that. Again, this also applies to TOP or every other alliance to ever exist on Planet Bob.
[/quote]

We don't lie on the OWF. What reason would we have to do so?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Crymson

[Alterego]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1324708012' post='2885463']
I believe SF didn't decline b/c of Xiphosis, they declined from a internal and external things that happened over the past few years.

Internal
1. FARK leaving
2. Rok leaving
3. The decline of MA

External
1. GOONS-GOD treaty cancellation
2. VE-RIA treaty cancellation
3. Legacy treaty cancellations
4. CSN- GOONS treaty cancellation
5. CSN ticking off DT and their alies by demanding reps

Blaming Xiphosis is just the easy narrative to preach on the OWF imo. I think SF made a poor calculation especially in the GOD-GOONS, and VE-RIA cancellations, as they purposefully distanced themselves from the leading power group in CN and yet did follow that up with any new relationships and thus caused themselves to be isolated.
[/quote]

Wow you managed to blame just about everything on everyone except GODs asshat antics.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1324757155' post='2885761']
Wow you managed to blame just about everything on everyone except GODs asshat antics.
[/quote]

Well I did putt the GOONS cancellation on there. Things like this are never as simple as "X is being a jerk," and involve many complex factors.


Edit: I can't do grammar... as usual

Edited December 24, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[Monster]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1324757155' post='2885761']
Wow you managed to blame just about everything on everyone except GODs asshat antics.
[/quote]

They play their own role, but SCY raises valid points even though he doesn't lay it all out properly.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]there was a time when GOD/SF wielded enough influence to stand up to - and stop - the hegemony of the day, without CG...[/quote]
Believe what you want about Xiphosis and how much of SF's fall from grace is his fault, but this is pure nonsense. There was never a 'hegemony' until after GW3 (the term was actually coined much later, as part of Karma), and the Initiative and Continuum would both have crushed SF without batting an eyelid. That's presumably something that SF knew and which had a strong influence on their decision to bind themselves tightly to the hegemony (pretty much every alliance had an NPO treaty). During the Continuum era, SF held quite a bit of influence as a secondary 'swing state' (a bit like Citadel), but never had anywhere near the power of Continuum.

OP have shown enough that GOD should take the opportunity of coalition peace talks to get some reasonable terms from them. I doubt OP would demand much, merely making GOD surrender to them would be a PR victory great enough to satisfy most purposes, and there's still a lot of scope for material damage (not to mention the humiliation of having your leader ZI and in bill-lock from a group of 'rogues').

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' timestamp='1324707746' post='2885457']
Anyway, I have witnessed GOD/SF influence prior to SuperGrievances. These things weren't necessarily world wide issues, but there was a time when GOD/SF wielded enough influence to stand up to - and stop - the hegemony of the day, without CG...
[/quote]

There was also a time when SuperFriends, particularly Xiphosis, were so preoccupied with fighting the shell of a coalition that was NPO's circle of influence that they failed to realize their security was slowly slipping away, and Xiph's personal vendettas were certainly a catalyst for that.

[Monster]

Haha, if a certain plan hadn't been vetoed, so many things could have been avoided. Though I'd say their handling of PB-NpO is one of the biggest contributing factors to their demise, RoK included in that assessment as their asscovering of RoK didn't help them at all. Ragnarok had no business attacking Poison Clan. They had done nothing to stop the war from taking place. No indications of defense of Polar prior to the VE declaration. Hell, VE/PC/iFOK wasn't even the original plan and certainly wouldn't have gone through if it had been known RoK would take a swing at them. It was a Grubesque move by Tautology lauded as something honorable. If anything, they should have given PC a break after completely dicking them over and switched to GATO/Exodus for RIA. GOD even made really stupid moves on RoK's behalf, like declaring on Steve Buscemi.

Unlike then, however, Ragnarok is willing to admit they screwed up, but just providing a historical analysis. They have no valid grievance against VE because VE went out of its way to make it as easy as possible on Ragnarok, but the attempts to do so failed.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Roquentin

[flak attack]

[quote name='TheDoctor' timestamp='1324666435' post='2884975']
He is an annoying Nuke rogue, Nothing more nothing less. There is no reason GOD should or would surrender to him.
[/quote]
Their inability to defeat him sounds like a sufficient reason to me.

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1324669291' post='2885003']
It's still around, but Crymson has done his best to crap and pee all over it. In fact anyone who thinks Xiph is the biggest jerk on Planet Bob hasn't spent more than 30 seconds around Crymson.
[/quote]
Maybe true, but Crymson hasn't been in gov for almost two years now.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1324769063' post='2885865']
Believe what you want about Xiphosis and how much of SF's fall from grace is his fault, but this is pure nonsense. There was never a 'hegemony' until after GW3 (the term was actually coined much later, as part of Karma), and the Initiative and Continuum would both have crushed SF without batting an eyelid. That's presumably something that SF knew and which had a strong influence on their decision to bind themselves tightly to the hegemony (pretty much every alliance had an NPO treaty). During the Continuum era, SF held quite a bit of influence as a secondary 'swing state' (a bit like Citadel), but never had anywhere near the power of Continuum.
[/quote]
Even then, I doubt GOD could have received the support of Cit they would have needed if they wanted to win. SF's only Cit ties were through Fark, IIRC.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

There were also three Citadel alliances in Q...

[Aeros]

At this point, the only thing GOD is fighting for is ego. Mainly Xiphs ego, but that seems to be another issue. Their infrastructure is all but gone. Those nations that have been able to limp to peace mode making up the bulk of what remains. Their tech is steadily being eroded now and they will be bankrupt long before Valhalla or even Vlad runs out of money.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1324855158' post='2886336']
At this point, the only thing GOD is fighting for is ego. Mainly Xiphs ego, but that seems to be another issue. Their infrastructure is all but gone. Those nations that have been able to limp to peace mode making up the bulk of what remains. Their tech is steadily being eroded now and they will be bankrupt long before Valhalla or even Vlad runs out of money.
[/quote]

Completely wrong, actually. They're fighting until their allies are done with the war as well.

But don't let logic interrupt your bandwagon hating.

[Crymson]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1324856891' post='2886348']
But don't let logic interrupt your bandwagon hating.
[/quote]

Part of your brain must be malfunctioning if you're accusing anyone of "bandwagon-hating" Xiphosis, because no such bandwagon is in existence; a huge chunk of CN had come to detest Xiphosis long before this war began.

But don't let logic interrupt your GOD apologetics.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Crymson

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324859099' post='2886362']
Part of your brain must be malfunctioning if you're accusing anyone of "bandwagon-hating" Xiphosis, because no such bandwagon is in existence; a huge chunk of CN had come to detest Xiphosis long before this war began.

But don't let logic interrupt your GOD apologetics.
[/quote]

I think VE members are just trying to save face by understating just how badly their "ally" is getting its teeth kicked in. This way, they can claim their treaty had a positive effect for GOD. However, as anyone looking objectively at the situation can tell, that is simply not the case. It's another case of VE denial, which have become frightfully common recently.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1324855158' post='2886336']
At this point, the only thing GOD is fighting for is ego. Mainly Xiphs ego, but that seems to be another issue. Their infrastructure is all but gone. Those nations that have been able to limp to peace mode making up the bulk of what remains. Their tech is steadily being eroded now and they will be bankrupt long before Valhalla or even Vlad runs out of money.
[/quote]

Nah, mostly that whole MDP thing.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1324859099' post='2886362']
Part of your brain must be malfunctioning if you're accusing anyone of "bandwagon-hating" Xiphosis, because no such bandwagon is in existence; a huge chunk of CN had come to detest Xiphosis long before this war began.

But don't let logic interrupt your GOD apologetics.
[/quote]

Yes, because clearly the only thing keeping GOD at war is Xiph's "ego," right?

That was an objectively false statement that was made by someone who obviously has an ulterior motive without bothering to make proper assessment of the situation.

But don't let the obvious blind your agenda, of course.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1324863582' post='2886398']
I think VE members are just trying to save face by understating just how badly their "ally" is getting its teeth kicked in. This way, they can claim their treaty had a positive effect for GOD. However, as anyone looking objectively at the situation can tell, that is simply not the case. It's another case of VE denial, which have become frightfully common recently.
[/quote]

Where did I argue their loss? They're outnumbered, it's fairly obvious unless you're trying for strawman arguments, which is actually exactly what you're doing.

I said they won't be looking to leave the war until their allies leave instead of it being xiph's "ego" or whatever else the guy claimed. How you can keep trying these lame attempts to try and look tough here is amusing however, so do continue. I'm sure it makes you feel all tough and intelligent inside.

[Monster]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1324855158' post='2886336']
At this point, the only thing GOD is fighting for is ego. Mainly Xiphs ego, but that seems to be another issue. Their infrastructure is all but gone. Those nations that have been able to limp to peace mode making up the bulk of what remains. Their tech is steadily being eroded now and they will be bankrupt long before Valhalla or even Vlad runs out of money.
[/quote]

The funny thing is other people are saying GOD is having easy time of it.

[janax]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1324872459' post='2886443']
The funny thing is other people are saying GOD is having easy time of it.
[/quote]


Easier than it could have been, but fighting outnumbered (and seeing the mystique of them being real threats being destroyed) is never easy.

They aren't complaining about it at the very least.

[bcortell]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1324872459' post='2886443']
The funny thing is other people are saying GOD is having easy time of it.
[/quote]
I'd like to know who these people are, because anyone that is trying to spew that GOD isn't getting their teeth kicked in, is full of !@#$.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1324870938' post='2886433']
Where did I argue their loss? They're outnumbered, it's fairly obvious unless you're trying for strawman arguments, which is actually exactly what you're doing.

I said they won't be looking to leave the war until their allies leave instead of it being xiph's "ego" or whatever else the guy claimed. How you can keep trying these lame attempts to try and look tough here is amusing however, so do continue. I'm sure it makes you feel all tough and intelligent inside.
[/quote]

The guy you quoted said that GOD has no value in this war anymore because they're all either in peace mode or missing infrastructure. You said he was wrong. I said he was right, and you're completely ignoring the issue that, despite VE's attempts to approve only so much destruction for their ally, GOD is doing just as badly, if not worse, as any other loser of any other alliance war. It's a reality you refuse to accept, and attacking me won't bring your credibility back. You're a completely worthless ally to have; the secret on that has been out for a long time.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

What are you guys talking about? GOD is winning! They will never surrender!