A Briefest Comment on RIA

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1322790264' post='2858750']
that's why alliances like TOP are willing to sell out to you, and you just reap the benefits.
[/quote]
You have a very strange way of viewing things.

Doesn't TOP(us!) reap the benefits of attacking the NpO?

[Joe Kremlin]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322791020' post='2858781']
You have a very strange way of viewing things.

Doesn't TOP(us!) reap the benefits of attacking the NpO?
[/quote]
That's just what MK wants us to think

[Stewie]

Edit : NVM.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Stewie

[Ardus]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1322790264' post='2858750']
His even-handedness isn't false; if it's that clear to you that he was talking about you specifically, then it shows just how accurate he is. We all know he speaks the truth, so why beat around the bush? Your alliance mates have long accepted the role of villain ever since NPO members abandoned the persona, and if I say so myself you've done a pretty damn good job of navigating the whole BiPolar situation, especially the acquisition of TOP as an "ally." MK has come out of this whole situation scott-free, so why challenge Tromp for saying you've gotten away with too much? You know it as well as the rest of the world does, that's why alliances like TOP are willing to sell out to you, and you just reap the benefits. I'm not faulting you for it, so why pretend that you don't deserve the ire of guys like Tromp when you know his reasoning is without fault?
[/quote]
Tromp is free to hate me as he wishes, but at his core he and I are the largely same. Just as I railed against Xiphosis in order to hammer a larger group of people, he rails against me in order to hammer at the FOK-MK relationship (too bad I'd already given my two-weeks notice when he came to power). Just as I published the contents of the NpO embassy, he published the contents of the MK embassy on the FOK boards. The only difference is that when people ask me questions, I answer them. For the past months since the Pandoran War I've played with my cards face up. Tromp is not so courteous. After I explained my vision of the future to him I asked his opinion, for I dearly wanted it, and he refused. Since he again rose to prominence in FOK, MK (and some of his other allies) have sought his opinion, for we dearly want it, and he has refused. I've had to rely on the grapevine to know his mind, and such is unfortunate. There's no need to hide from one another. If he does not wish to work out differences between us, so be it, but he won't even admit to them directly. That is not gentlemanly. That is why I challenge him: I want him to be open with me, as I have been with him.

The delusion of heroes and villains passed from my mind some time ago, but there are two kinds of people in this world: those who act and those who react. There are those who make the world and those who merely try to survive it. I've sought to make the world, a world for the benefit of the Kingdom, her allies, and all those with whom we find common cause. A world where the warriors thrive and the yellow-bellied suffer. A better world. A world for my friends and I.

Friendship is Power.

[Robster83]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322792612' post='2858817']
Tromp is free to hate me as he wishes, but at his core he and I are the largely same. Just as I railed against Xiphosis in order to hammer a larger group of people, he rails against me in order to hammer at the FOK-MK relationship (too bad I'd already given my two-weeks notice when he came to power). Just as I published the contents of the NpO embassy, he published the contents of the MK embassy on the FOK boards. The only difference is that when people ask me questions, I answer them. For the past months since the Pandoran War I've played with my cards face up. Tromp is not so courteous. After I explained my vision of the future to him I asked his opinion, for I dearly wanted it, and he refused. Since he again rose to prominence in FOK, MK (and some of his other allies) have sought his opinion, for we dearly want it, and he has refused. I've had to rely on the grapevine to know his mind, and such is unfortunate. There's no need to hide from one another. If he does not wish to work out differences between us, so be it, but he won't even admit to them directly. That is not gentlemanly. That is why I challenge him: I want him to be open with me, as I have been with him.

The delusion of heroes and villains passed from my mind some time ago, but there are two kinds of people in this world: those who act and those who react. There are those who make the world and those who merely try to survive it. I've sought to make the world, a world for the benefit of the Kingdom, her allies, and all those with whom we find common cause. A world where the warriors thrive and the yellow-bellied suffer. A better world. A world for my friends and I.

Friendship is Power.
[/quote]

Very touching.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Robster83' timestamp='1322792818' post='2858819']
Very touching.
[/quote]
A quality response from a quality alliance.

[MrHavok]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1322633057' post='2856621']
And before RIA et. al. wants to compare this to how it took TOP a week to get declarations to come in the TPF war, know that the two situations aren't even comparable (for obvious reasons, if you think about it, but you guys never do.)

I don't know what you guys are working on or what you think you've got up your sleeves, but find your nuts and get on with it.
[/quote]

Says the guy not defending their allies in STA but hey why let being hypocritical get in the way of sucking up to people

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322791020' post='2858781']
You have a very strange way of viewing things.

Doesn't TOP(us!) reap the benefits of attacking the NpO?
[/quote]

How dense. I didn't say that there isn't mutual benefit in the situation. When MCXA sold out to One Vision it gained security, and NPO had one less alliance to take down on its way to eliminating the Polaris threat.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='MrHavok' timestamp='1322793407' post='2858827']
Says the guy not defending their allies in STA but hey why let being hypocritical get in the way of sucking up to people
[/quote]

[OOC]what a fine example of reading the first few posts of a thread and then commenting.[/ooc]

Its been covered, and saying things like that go along ways to make you look like an idiot. If thats what you were aiming for, good job, well done.

[MrHavok]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1322793913' post='2858834']
[OOC]what a fine example of reading the first few posts of a thread and then commenting.[/ooc]

Its been covered, and saying things like that go along ways to make you look like an idiot. If thats what you were aiming for, good job, well done.
[/quote]

Well I figured I would stop reading at the first sign of stupidity in this thread and your post was the first I got to

However it doesn't make my point any less true

[Ryan Greenberg]

Stop whining and get over it. Oh war, you bring out the best of the OWF.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322792612' post='2858817']
Tromp is free to hate me as he wishes, but at his core he and I are the largely same. Just as I railed against Xiphosis in order to hammer a larger group of people, he rails against me in order to hammer at the FOK-MK relationship (too bad I'd already given my two-weeks notice when he came to power). Just as I published the contents of the NpO embassy, he published the contents of the MK embassy on the FOK boards. The only difference is that when people ask me questions, I answer them. For the past months since the Pandoran War I've played with my cards face up. Tromp is not so courteous. After I explained my vision of the future to him I asked his opinion, for I dearly wanted it, and he refused. Since he again rose to prominence in FOK, MK (and some of his other allies) have sought his opinion, for we dearly want it, and he has refused. I've had to rely on the grapevine to know his mind, and such is unfortunate. There's no need to hide from one another. If he does not wish to work out differences between us, so be it, but he won't even admit to them directly. That is not gentlemanly. That is why I challenge him: I want him to be open with me, as I have been with him.
[/quote]
Why does this behavior from him sound so familiar? It's as if he's done this kind of thing before.....

Edited December 2, 2011 by Feanor Noldorin

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='MrHavok' timestamp='1322794981' post='2858849']
Well I figured I would stop reading at the first sign of stupidity in this thread and your post was the first I got to

However it doesn't make my point any less true
[/quote]

Actually, it kind of does. Had you read the thread rather then just reading what suits your desires, you would have seen that it has been discussed.

Then again, if you've got doubts in TPF and the fashion in which we honor our treaties, perhaps thats a concern you should take up with your government, since our two alliances hold a treaty as well.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322792612' post='2858817']I've sought to make the world, a world for the benefit of the Kingdom, her allies, and all those with whom we find common cause. A world where the warriors thrive and the yellow-bellied suffer. A better world. A world for my friends and I.[/quote]


Sorry man, but I'm gonna call !@#$%^&* and I don't care what my alliance or allies think as it's time to get it out on the table. The MK's foreign policy over the last six months has been about you and your legacy. I called you out before and then I backed off, but that was a mistake. This is all about you trying to be known as the guy who took down SF and Xiph and not the guy that disbanded VE from within. The crazy thing is you were a part of the Balkan Entente. You are part of the VE/GOD history! Does this mean nothing to you? Of course not, as you only care about the last chapters in your history.

You present yourself as this guy who has some massive ego and that somehow makes it okay for you to put the daggers into the backs of old friends. The fact is, you could care less about any AA. It's all about you and what you think you can get away with.

A world better for your friends? You have no friends here. Just people you can use to further your agenda and those who cheer you on out of boredom.

Whatever VE does over the next few weeks, so be it. Just know that there are a lot of old timers who don't want to see old friends get crushed just so you can place an addendum to your personal history.

For someone who sees himself as one of the elites, this call out on your part was nothing short of a bush league play by a guy who no matter how hard he tried, didn't accomplish much.

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322792612' post='2858817']

The delusion of heroes and villains passed from my mind some time ago, but there are two kinds of people in this world: those who act and those who react. There are those who make the world and those who merely try to survive it. I've sought to make the world, a world for the benefit of the Kingdom, her allies, and all those with whom we find common cause. A world where the warriors thrive and the yellow-bellied suffer. A better world. A world for my friends and I.

Friendship is Power.
[/quote]


ahhh, reminds me of NPO pre-karma. Good times. Too bad someone had to ruin that dream.

Edited December 2, 2011 by William Bonney

[Ardus]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1322798537' post='2858907']
Sorry man, but I'm gonna call !@#$%^&* and I don't care what my alliance or allies think as it's time to get it out on the table. The MK's foreign policy over the last six months has been about you and your legacy. I called you out before and then I backed off, but that was a mistake. This is all about you trying to be known as the guy who took down SF and Xiph and not the guy that disbanded VE from within. The crazy thing is you were a part of the Balkan Entente. You are part of the VE/GOD history! Does this mean nothing to you? Of course not, as you only care about the last chapters in your history.

You present yourself as this guy who has some massive ego and that somehow makes it okay for you to put the daggers into the backs of old friends. The fact is, you could care less about any AA. It's all about you and what you think you can get away with.

A world better for your friends? You have no friends here. Just people you can use to further your agenda and those who cheer you on out of boredom.

Whatever VE does over the next few weeks, so be it. Just know that there are a lot of old timers who don't want to see old friends get crushed just so you can place an addendum to your personal history.

For someone who sees himself as one of the elites, this call out on your part was nothing short of a bush league play by a guy who no matter how hard he tried, didn't accomplish much.
[/quote]
Xiphosis crossed me and mine one time too many. I've always favored today and tomorrow over yesterday. Why, there's even a quote of me from the NpO-FIST war people like to throw around exemplifying my forward-thinking approach. Xiphosis and I got along well for a long time. We served as an incredible combination. But the relationship between GOD and the Kingdom frayed too far, he pushed too much, and I won't let personal affections get in the way of sound judgment. Down that road lies only ruin. Down that road was a VE without treaties.

But you're angry, and I can understand that.

[Il Impero Romano]

Oh, you crazy kids.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1322798537' post='2858907']
A world better for your friends? You have no friends here. Just people you can use to further your agenda and those who cheer you on out of boredom.
[/quote]

I assume this was largely directed at Ardus, but in the event it was not, I can assure you MK cares greatly about our allies.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322799524' post='2858929']I won't let personal affections get in the way of sound judgment. [/quote]

I would like to nominate this as post of the year.

[MrHavok]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1322797973' post='2858889']
Actually, it kind of does. Had you read the thread rather then just reading what suits your desires, you would have seen that it has been discussed.

Then again, if you've got doubts in TPF and the fashion in which we honor our treaties, perhaps thats a concern you should take up with your government, since our two alliances hold a treaty as well.
[/quote]

Well we could talk with one of your diplomats to our alliance but seeing how your alliance hasn't posted on our forums in almost two years that would be hard to do or maybe we could talk to one of your members in our public channel but again you would have to have one there for this to happen so please don't preach to me

[Aeternos Astramora]

The level of fighting between former allies, current allies, and people not on opposite sides of the conflict is simply awesome.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1322798537' post='2858907']
The MK's foreign policy over the last six months has been about you and your legacy.
[/quote]
While Ardus certainly was a leader MK's foreign policy wouldn't have been much if at all different without him. SF gave us plenty of reasons to collectively dislike them and lead us down this path. So no, it hasn't been about Ardus. SF finds itself in this situation because of its own actions turning much of the world against them.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Azaghul

[RustyNail]

PLEASE TOP, DON'T BETRAY....er...well anyone really.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1322779094' post='2858532']
All I was saying is that I reject the idea that coalition warfare is the only sort of warfare possible in CN, especially with the political alignments of various (groups of) alliances these days. In cases like this, I believe independent action and/or neutrality becomes a real option.
And in itself, that might also create more exciting political dynamics, as coalitions won't form easily and to the size they used to be in the past, nor will the conclusion of a war be determined after three days or so (or even before the war has started).[/quote]

That won't work when one party hides in peacemode, but it's a good thought.


[quote]What I'm having more trouble with, personally speaking, is how some people who profited most from Grub's action, have turned their backs on others out of sheer opportunism. Some may have had additional reasons, but my point is that the change of various relationships put us in a difficult spot. The goal of it all was clear, and now that this war kicked off people jumped at the opportunity to carry out their own agendas, which would always come at the cost of some of our allies, or FOK itself. That kind of behaviour shouldn't be encouraged, let alone be rewarded.
[/quote]

No one at all profited from Grub's action. Grub was supposed to be solidly with us against TOP on the front lines, when it came down to it. This was certainly the case in the TPF war. He and NpO were ready to go in at our word. Then he did something funny in the month or so after that. He decided to open up a private dialogue with TOP in a very small IRC channel. Then he decided to essentially attack some of my closest allies, which caused an ENORMOUS !@#$fest in CnG and damaged a lot of relationships. Then he betrayed TOP. TOP wouldn't have even gone after us if not for Grub. He stabbed us all in the back. $%&@ Polar. They need to be burned to ashes and the ashes need to be buried at sea in that !@#$pile they call the blue team.

As far as Superfriends goes, I dunno. They did dump MK prior to noCB in a really really !@#$%* way, but that let CnG have a chance to shine and build political support, and allowed SF's NS to remain mostly intact for Karma 6 months later, so it's hard to judge them overly much for that. CSN did some retarded stuff with the DT reps which I still to this day don't understand, but everyone $%&@s up from time to time. Xiph has tried to disband alliances that didn't really deserve it but oh well. SF also have a bit of a habit of going after easy targets and it has caused some high level butthurt, but it in no way compares to the kind of !@#$ Polar has pulled on nearly everyone at some point in their existence. I would much much much prefer to be working WITH SF to round up and roll all of the !@#$%* blue team alliances than to be rolling them if I were still really firmly in that political sphere. Sadly, this is not what we see happening.


[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322792612' post='2858817']
Tromp is free to hate me as he wishes, but at his core he and I are the largely same.[/quote]

I wouldn't agree with this at all. I think you are way more realpolitik than he is, and you want to win and achieve absolute political dominance at all costs, and I think he is a lot more interested in creating an interesting world. And I wish both of you luck. The world needs struggle. With that said, IMO, you would do a lot better to ally Xiph and integrate him and SF into your political sphere than to try to roll him. Letting the whole PB thing break up Supergrievances, and going to Doomhouse IMO was a huge step backwards in terms of forming a political entity that could actually control anything. An outright merger of PB, SF, and CnG back in the day (probably with some individual alliance mergers being pushed along as part of it, and bringing in people like Sparta and eventually NPO) would have created a kick ass superbloc that would probably still be around beating on people today. It would have been nice to ally TOP too before the whole BiPolar thing, but my attempts to build a relationship there mostly went nowhere. It's foolish for the most competent people to strike at the other most competent people for no real reason other than to FIGHT, because it wears down the vital strength of both - especially in the modern era of game mechanics. We could have spent a Looooooong time properly mopping up ex-Heg had the right political moves been made, but alas, they were not. And then perhaps the shattered remains of ex-Heg would have come together to form a competent alliance, much like what happened with ex-Aegis and UjP remnants forming MK. It's hard to say.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1322793621' post='2858830']
How dense. I didn't say that there isn't mutual benefit in the situation. When MCXA sold out to One Vision it gained security, and NPO had one less alliance to take down on its way to eliminating the Polaris threat.
[/quote]

Did you just compare TOP to MCXA?

The only person you are fooling is yourself if you call TOP a pawn. They are one of the handful of alliances in this game that have the ability to lead coalitions.