A new Declaration from The Order of the Paradox

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1322630021' post='2856463']
I think NpO could learn a lot from NPO in how to turn an alliance's FA around.
[/quote]

Whoa there Sardonic, you're implying Polaris can learn.

[Ardus]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1322630240' post='2856469']
No thanks, much best to lose infra and tech than self-respect.
[/quote]
You don't lose self-respect so much as an MDP with a [s]purple alliance[/s]... oh wait, Invicta moved to Red. Joke kind of falls flat. Oh well.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Ardus

[Hyperion321]

Oh look, a war. Good luck to whoever is fighting against whoever else.

[mmansfield68]

I remember when Polar and TOP were tight. During the war that caused the split, I was a (four-star) **** General in Polaris. When the order came down to issue peace, a peace that left TOP and other allies on the battlefield, there was much consternation among the military staff at that time. None of us wanted to leave our allies on the battlefield. But this was an imperial order, to make peace. You don't question your orders, you follow them - and instruct those under you to do the same.

I was conflicted to the point of leaving CN. I returned several months later after hearing that Myworld and some cool cats (like Docharteigh and Supa_Troop3r) had started a new, dignified alliance. An alliance that would never leave their allies to bleed on the battlefield. Enough about me....

o/

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1322630338' post='2856475']
You don't lose self-respect so much as an MDP with a [s]purple alliance[/s]... oh wait, Invicta moved to Red. Joke kind of falls flat. Oh well.
[/quote]
Oh Ardus, we ain't all bad you know

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322629965' post='2856461']
I remember reading the post of a well known Polar member that the TOP "boogyman" was created post-WoTC as something that the alliance could fixate on during their troubled times. People tend to stick around more and contribute more when they have someone to gun for and that the reason TOP was chosen was because you were the spokesperson for the Coalition. The hatred seems to have truly began not because you were the architect of the secret terms (which you were not) or that you were the one pushing for the highest amount of reps (which you were not) but rather simply because you were the figurehead of the Coalition.

A couple of days from now when I'm not swamped with things to do I'll go looking for that post.
[/quote]

There is some merit in what you say, we did have some issues with the way you rolled over us, there was also TSO, Crymson being a lying $%^& and several other contributing factors. We did focus on some of those issues for a period of time but we were so close to fixing our issues if we are being really honest (I know it seems so difficult to believe I could ever tell the truth about such matters) but several factors changed my mind fairly rapidly, mostly to do with Crymson. These were personal decisions made by me as a result of my interactions with Crymson throughout that whole build-up to war period. I tried to let it go, but at the end of the day, Crymson did not want to be honest. I therefore felt no obligation to be honest with him. It is funny to see me being accused of being arrogant when one of the major issues I have always had with certain people is their level of arrogance in general. I know I am a major prick, but some of you are in a class all of your own. The only thing that saves you is your ability to find friends with similar levels.

I don't actually hate TOP as much as I resent Crymson. Just as some of you regard me as Polaris thorugh that era, I felt the same way about Crymson. Crymson was TOP's focal point for such a long time the lines got very blurred for me. Crymson allowed himself to run the agenda of alliances outside the conflict resulting in terms that were offensive to us and to me long term. We coped with the whole tech payment crapola as an exercise in mechanics but losing Random in particular was a stella term for long term issues. You try very hard to get over things like that but seeing your friends forced into other alliances is a very hard thing to take tbh, especially when you are the one that signs off on it. I tried to give myself a chance to clear this one, but I was fed lies and !@#$%^&*... I had the logs from the era, so I knew the truth. Crymson just didn't want to go to the trouble of admitting it. It is a pity really.

I don't ever see Polaris and TOP being friends or even tolerating each other, but I would love to see an end to the empty rhetoric spewed forth from both sides over the past 2 years. I am happy to put it to bed whenever you are guys. I won't love you, I won't even like you, but I am prepared to let it go when you are ready to do so.

I would strongly suggest to any alliance that thinks approaching a new found friend with a plot to betray an existing ally to really think it all the way through first though. I know I am an arrogant SOB but that was one ballsy move Crymson.


Have fun guys, see you after Xmas.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322631299' post='2856548']
There is some merit in what you say, we did have some issues with the way you rolled over us, there was also TSO, [b]Crymson [/b]being a lying $%^& and several other contributing factors. We did focus on some of those issues for a period of time but we were so close to fixing our issues if we are being really honest (I know it seems so difficult to believe I could ever tell the truth about such matters) but several factors changed my mind fairly rapidly, mostly to do with [b]Crymson[/b]. These were personal decisions made by me as a result of my interactions with [b]Crymson [/b]throughout that whole build-up to war period. I tried to let it go, but at the end of the day, [b]Crymson [/b]did not want to be honest. I therefore felt no obligation to be honest with him. It is funny to see me being accused of being arrogant when one of the major issues I have always had with certain people is their level of arrogance in general. I know I am a major prick, but some of you are in a class all of your own. The only thing that saves you is your ability to find friends with similar levels.

I don't actually hate TOP as much as I resent [b]Crymson[/b]. Just as some of you regard me as Polaris thorugh that era, I felt the same way about [b]Crymson[/b]. [b]Crymson [/b]was TOP's focal point for such a long time the lines got very blurred for me. [b]Crymson [/b]allowed himself to run the agenda of alliances outside the conflict resulting in terms that were offensive to us and to me long term. We coped with the whole tech payment crapola as an exercise in mechanics but losing Random in particular was a stella term for long term issues. You try very hard to get over things like that but seeing your friends forced into other alliances is a very hard thing to take tbh, especially when you are the one that signs off on it. I tried to give myself a chance to clear this one, but I was fed lies and !@#$%^&*... I had the logs from the era, so I knew the truth. [b]Crymson [/b]just didn't want to go to the trouble of admitting it. It is a pity really.

I don't ever see Polaris and TOP being friends or even tolerating each other, but I would love to see an end to the empty rhetoric spewed forth from both sides over the past 2 years. I am happy to put it to bed whenever you are guys. I won't love you, I won't even like you, but I am prepared to let it go when you are ready to do so.

I would strongly suggest to any alliance that thinks approaching a new found friend with a plot to betray an existing ally to really think it all the way through first though. I know I am an arrogant SOB but that was one ballsy move [b]Crymson[/b].

Have fun guys, see you after Xmas.
[/quote]
tl;dr, Are you talking about Crymson at all?

[Brehon]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1322539436' post='2855455']
I think you're confusing us with Pacifica. It's okay. We both have Order in our name. Totally understandable mistake that simple folk make all the time.
[/quote]

Cute toss, the NPO put its peace nations up for slaughter. Mind you in that war we lost what 12m ns. Don't even bring that crap like we hid.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322631299' post='2856548']
There is some merit in what you say, we did have some issues with the way you rolled over us, there was also TSO, Crymson being a lying $%^& and several other contributing factors. We did focus on some of those issues for a period of time but we were so close to fixing our issues if we are being really honest (I know it seems so difficult to believe I could ever tell the truth about such matters) but several factors changed my mind fairly rapidly, mostly to do with Crymson. These were personal decisions made by me as a result of my interactions with Crymson throughout that whole build-up to war period. I tried to let it go, but at the end of the day, Crymson did not want to be honest. I therefore felt no obligation to be honest with him. It is funny to see me being accused of being arrogant when one of the major issues I have always had with certain people is their level of arrogance in general. I know I am a major prick, but some of you are in a class all of your own. The only thing that saves you is your ability to find friends with similar levels.

I don't actually hate TOP as much as I resent Crymson. Just as some of you regard me as Polaris thorugh that era, I felt the same way about Crymson. Crymson was TOP's focal point for such a long time the lines got very blurred for me. Crymson allowed himself to run the agenda of alliances outside the conflict resulting in terms that were offensive to us and to me long term. We coped with the whole tech payment crapola as an exercise in mechanics but losing Random in particular was a stella term for long term issues. You try very hard to get over things like that but seeing your friends forced into other alliances is a very hard thing to take tbh, especially when you are the one that signs off on it. I tried to give myself a chance to clear this one, but I was fed lies and !@#$%^&*... I had the logs from the era, so I knew the truth. Crymson just didn't want to go to the trouble of admitting it. It is a pity really.

I don't ever see Polaris and TOP being friends or even tolerating each other, but I would love to see an end to the empty rhetoric spewed forth from both sides over the past 2 years. I am happy to put it to bed whenever you are guys. I won't love you, I won't even like you, but I am prepared to let it go when you are ready to do so.

I would strongly suggest to any alliance that thinks approaching a new found friend with a plot to betray an existing ally to really think it all the way through first though. I know I am an arrogant SOB but that was one ballsy move Crymson.


Have fun guys, see you after Xmas.
[/quote]

You do realize Crymson was not even the one who pushed the preempt, correct? Sure he signed off, but I'm quite confident he said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "you sure we shouldn't wait another night to see if they come in" and we saying something to the effect of "hell no, lets get our fight on." Glad you're so fixated on his personage that you totally ignored the rest of us. Pretend it was just "getting Crymson" if you will, but you know that it was the shot to get TOP and the rest of us screwed.

Bottom line: You thought your buddies would reward you for your duplicity on their behalf with a better political position. You thought wrong. Now you pay.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Lord Curzon

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1322636017' post='2856699']
Bottom line: You thought your buddies would reward you for your duplicity on their behalf with a better political position. You thought wrong. Now you pay.
[/quote]

I have made it abundantly clear in this thread and other threads how much I can't stand Grub or the New Polar Order, but you're wrong here. Before TOP hit C&G and Polar defended them, relations between Polar and MK had seriously deteriorated. It was obvious to everyone, including Grub, that a rubicon had been crossed and MK and Polar were going to part ways afterwards. NpO's political capital had taken a serious hit and was not going to recover. So I don't think you're right that he did what he did to better his political position, he did it for three reasons:

1) because he hated TOP
2) to stir things up
3) to massage his own ego and exercise NpO's (at the time) considerable political power (a point which is somewhat related to #2.)

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1322622881' post='2856318']
The many posts since, as well as those posts during the whole fiasco only prove the majority of Polar hated TOP and was happy to follow through with the actions. This was not the sole act of Grub is a point that has to be conceded.

[/quote]

I'm in no doubt that there would be people that hated you from soldiers to Government levels, but like I said, there were probably people that just followed orders and thus shouldn't be banded in that bracket. Unless you have evidence that the hatred was that wide spread that 100% of NpO hated you. You will always have people that just followed orders and some that reveled in your destruction. Again as I said before, band they people into that bracket, but not the others.

I think that is what maybe Fallen Fool might have been getting at. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[Bodvar Jarl]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1322656805' post='2856894']
I'm in no doubt that there would be people that hated you from soldiers to Government levels, but like I said, there were probably people that just followed orders and thus shouldn't be banded in that bracket. Unless you have evidence that the hatred was that wide spread that 100% of NpO hated you. You will always have people that just followed orders and some that reveled in your destruction. Again as I said before, band they people into that bracket, but not the others.

I think that is what maybe Fallen Fool might have been getting at. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
[/quote]

It is never that easy.

Polar did what they did, Grub may not be representative of the whole alliance, yet that is not a valid defense when the alliance does not express any sort of regret about it. Throughout the entire time, Polaris has never even once hinted towards being willing to consider that they wronged us by what they did. Sure, the "Grub made us do it" defense is not necessarily invalid, though it looses all credibility when not a single attempt is made to distance themselves from his decisions.

In a sense, both Polar and Paradoxia both went to the lowest debts ever visited back then. Polar is still there, Paradoxia are not. Why? Paradoxia opted to recognize the series of events leading up to it as mistakes on our part, and that our crash landing was deserved and in fact, needed. We don't try to downplay or explain it away, we have accepted that we wronged people, which is a prerequisite to learn how to avoid that in the future.

Polaris, on the other hand, are still in a state of denial, and as long as Polaris stays that way, it's going to suck being Polaris.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Bodvar Jarl

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322672144' post='2857058']
In a sense, both Polar and Paradoxia both went to the lowest depths ever visited back then. Polar is still there, Paradoxia are not. Why? Paradoxia opted to recognize the series of events leading up to it as mistakes on our part, and that our crash landing was deserved and in fact, needed. We don't try to downplay or explain it away, we have accepted that we wronged people, which is a prerequisite to learn how to avoid that in the future.
[/quote]

This has been thoroughly overlooked.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322672144' post='2857058']
[b]It is never that easy.[/b]

Polar did what they did, Grub may not be representative of the whole alliance, yet that is not a valid defense when the alliance does not express any sort of regret about it. Throughout the entire time, Polaris has never even once hinted towards being willing to consider that they wronged us by what they did. Sure, the "Grub made us do it" defense is not necessarily invalid, though it looses all credibility when not a single attempt is made to distance themselves from his decisions.

In a sense, both Polar and Paradoxia both went to the lowest debts ever visited back then. Polar is still there, Paradoxia are not. Why? Paradoxia opted to recognize the series of events leading up to it as mistakes on our part, and that our crash landing was deserved and in fact, needed. We don't try to downplay or explain it away, we have accepted that we wronged people, which is a prerequisite to learn how to avoid that in the future.

Polaris, on the other hand, are still in a state of denial, and as long as Polaris stays that way, it's going to suck being Polaris.
[/quote]

You're right it is never that easy, and again that kind of applies itself to banding an entire alliance 100% in with the rest. It is just never that easy

The rest I'm not really needing to debate with you about as you're spot on. The point being yes a large portion of people within that alliance you could say hate you or show no remorse for what they have done, but there will also be others that do have remorse for their actions. Because they haven't made declarations of their remorse here in front of the peanut gallery, does not mean that everyone has no remorse.

Just saying.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[NoMercy]

[quote name='Llanowar Elf' timestamp='1322619089' post='2856270']
We are paying for that crapstorm, right now. As we have been doing for the last 2 years since it was done. Should people forget what happen, absolutely not lord knows we never have. However, we've paid for it for a long time now with side effect, and were paying a huge price for it now. If were still on the "hook" for it, after this war concludes then that sure shows your character. We've owned up for our mistakes, were dealing with the consequences now. We haven't tried to get out of this war, we've known it was coming for a long time. Maybe perhaps people will move on, or at least have something else to freaking talk about then Bi-polar.
[/quote]

1. For TOP, I doubt you are paying off enough.
2. Your leadership hates alliances, although "they have already paid off their depts." So begging for mercy after this is hypocritical, especially considering you have shown the world in this thread that you won't change. That is fine, run your alliance however you want, we can't force you to learn, but you'll run against the next wall not too far in the future.



[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1322619186' post='2856273']
Oh come on, you don't think anyone seriously believes Dajobo forged those logs? I had access to MCXA's high government boards with a pinned thread on the secret terms and I can confirm this.
[/quote]

He didn't. IIRC I wasn't directly involved in the talks, but I remember that Crymson was the spokesman, not the decision maker. So, if you want to blame it on somebody, you can blame it on all Q-alliances (except Grämlins) but not TOP alone.



[quote name='Llanowar Elf' timestamp='1322620805' post='2856295']
Don't mistake Grub's or even Dajobo's feeling for our entire BR. We have a lively group with vastly differing opinions on Bi-polar. I have stated emphatically i believe we were wrong. I still do. However, that is your valid CB talking. On which you have finally acted. Frankly, i don't see what Dajobo said as arrogant. I see frustration coming through, the same frustration i have seen from TOP's end this whole time. Fact is, your getting your "revenge", we are paying for our sins.
[/quote]

I have been talking to a few (ex) Polars and they have painted a different picture. It's the picture of a rotten community that either receives very one-sided or none information at all. You all suck the boots of your appointed Emperor which usually has a god complex. (exceptions: Penguin and that donkey guy that was inactive).

[quote name='mmansfield68' timestamp='1322630861' post='2856513']
I remember when Polar and TOP were tight. During the war that caused the split, I was a (four-star) **** General in Polaris. When the order came down to issue peace, a peace that left TOP and other allies on the battlefield, there was much consternation among the military staff at that time. None of us wanted to leave our allies on the battlefield. But this was an imperial order, to make peace. You don't question your orders, you follow them - and instruct those under you to do the same.

I was conflicted to the point of leaving CN. I returned several months later after hearing that Myworld and some cool cats (like Docharteigh and Supa_Troop3r) had started a new, dignified alliance. An alliance that would never leave their allies to bleed on the battlefield. Enough about me....

o/
[/quote]
blahblah. Evidence for the above.

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322631299' post='2856548']
I know I am an arrogant SOB
[/quote]

And not as "smart" as you might think you are.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='NoMercy' timestamp='1322675510' post='2857096']

blahblah. Evidence for the above.

[/quote]

It copes with what the TOP members who joined Polaris for the war and left when it happened told us. In the wider aspect, it doesnt change anything, though. They always had the choice to leave Polaris if they felt injustice was done.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1322656805' post='2856894']
I'm in no doubt that there would be people that hated you from soldiers to Government levels, but like I said, there were probably people that just followed orders and thus shouldn't be banded in that bracket. Unless you have evidence that the hatred was that wide spread that 100% of NpO hated you. You will always have people that just followed orders and some that reveled in your destruction. Again as I said before, band they people into that bracket, but not the others.

I think that is what maybe Fallen Fool might have been getting at. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
[/quote]

Why the hell would I want 100%? My point stands regardless. This was not the sole act of Grub, and most of the alliance was happy to oblige. I could give two !@#$% whether it was 51% or 100%. Now they will pay.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1322679608' post='2857148']
Why the hell would I want 100%? My point stands regardless. This was not the sole act of Grub, and most of the alliance was happy to oblige. I could give two !@#$% whether it was 51% or 100%. Now they will pay.
[/quote]


That translates into you don't care about the entire alliance, you're butt hurt and because anyone dawns the AA of NpO they must be guilty and show no remorse, cool. You can go back to your daily installment of crying and being super butt hurt about something that happened years ago :v

Edited November 30, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[Bodvar Jarl]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1322674332' post='2857083']
You're right it is never that easy, and again that kind of applies itself to banding an entire alliance 100% in with the rest. It is just never that easy

The rest I'm not really needing to debate with you about as you're spot on. The point being yes a large portion of people within that alliance you could say hate you or show no remorse for what they have done, but there will also be others that do have remorse for their actions. Because they haven't made declarations of their remorse here in front of the peanut gallery, does not mean that everyone has no remorse.

Just saying.
[/quote]

Yet they choose to remain. Ultimately, by staying in an alliance, you choose to accept and support it's collective actions. Included in the package is the consequences of those things, which you deserve just as much as those who made the decisions for your alliance, disagreeing with those decisions does not make you free of guilt. Words are wind, opinions doesn't matter, it is by our actions we are judged, and the act of being a member of an alliance, and staying a member of that alliance is the same as being a leader of said alliance as far as the consequences that arise from the actions of the alliance are concerned.

Personal disagreement with those actions is hardly a mitigating factor if it was not strong enough to cause you to leave.

I recall, from another world, I believe, that the case "I was just following orders" was made in the defense of certain someone's in a rather well known trial. If memory serves, the verdict, which set precedence, was that people are responsible for what they do, even if someone orders them to do it and they are technically obligated to obey.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Bodvar Jarl

[Letum]

There is a very clear distinction between agreeing with an action your alliance has taken, and being responsible for it. I have had many disagreements with Pacific policies over our long years together, yet I have willingly contributed to its community and supported its leadership throughout it all - and thus I accepted the responsibility and the consequences for those actions when we got rolled.

An alliance is a cohesive unit, that shares in all success and misfortune. Trying to highlight your disagreements when it comes to the later comes close to bailing out on your very identity.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1322683349' post='2857198']
That translates into you don't care about the entire alliance, you're butt hurt and because anyone dawns the AA of NpO they must be guilty and show no remorse, cool. You can go back to your daily installment of crying and being super butt hurt about something that happened years ago :v
[/quote]
If the alliance, either as a whole or as individuals, didn't agree with what happened, they had nineteen months to leave.

People leave alliances over major decisions they disagree with. For those who stayed, the very vast majority, it wasn't the case. They don't share the responsibility, though they do share the burden. That is how alliances operate. Members vote with their feet, especially in dictatorships.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322685439' post='2857216']
If the alliance, either as a whole or as individuals, didn't agree with what happened, they had nineteen months to leave.

People leave alliances over major decisions they disagree with. For those who stayed, the very vast majority, it wasn't the case. They don't share the responsibility, though they do share the burden. That is how alliances operate. Members vote with their feet, especially in dictatorships.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bodvar Jarl' timestamp='1322684946' post='2857213']
Yet they choose to remain. Ultimately, by staying in an alliance, you choose to accept and support it's collective actions. Included in the package is the consequences of those things, which you deserve just as much as those who made the decisions for your alliance, disagreeing with those decisions does not make you free of guilt. Words are wind, opinions doesn't matter, it is by our actions we are judged, and the act of being a member of an alliance, and staying a member of that alliance is the same as being a leader of said alliance as far as the consequences that arise from the actions of the alliance are concerned.

Personal disagreement with those actions is hardly a mitigating factor if it was not strong enough to cause you to leave.

I recall, from another world, I believe, that the case "I was just following orders" was made in the defense of certain someone's in a rather well known trial. If memory serves, the verdict, which set precedence, was that people are responsible for what they do, even if someone orders them to do it and they are technically obligated to obey.
[/quote]


So anyone who joined NpO after the fact is banded in with the folks who committed this terrible, terrible, tragic betrayal (over dramatized for full effect)?

I really don't care about NpO, I think Grub is a dick as much as the next guy. But I can just see a slight bit of difference from the folks who actively encouraged the smashing of TOP and those who followed orders or joined after the fact. There are many things that make a member stay within an alliance that may out weight that of a bad decision they didn't agree with at the time, Community, friends, familiarity, that doesn't make every single one of them dicks or guilty because they stayed.


edited for the weird filter saying.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Hiro Nakara

[HellAngel]

Exactly Hiro. But that also means they need to suffer the consequences of those actions, even if they dont agree with said actions.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1322686390' post='2857227']
Exactly Hiro. But that also means they need to suffer the consequences of those actions, even if they dont agree with said actions.
[/quote]


Hey HellAngel, I'm not disagreeing with that.

[NoMercy]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1322676739' post='2857112']
It copes with what the TOP members who joined Polaris for the war and left when it happened told us. In the wider aspect, [b]it doesnt change anything, though[/b]. They always had the choice to leave Polaris if they felt injustice was done.
[/quote]

Of course not.

By joining the New Polar Order you agree to be a little sycophant that is not allowed to question the leadership, let alone develop own thoughts. You follow, period. If that's what you like to be in this game, Polar is the perfect match. I can't deny that people like d34th are perfectly happy with it - hell even (slowly) climbing up the ranks. With people like him, they have a [i]raison d'être[/i]

My post however was meant as a response to Llanowar who attempted to indicate that the Body Republic is consists out of independent minded individuals.