Open Invitation from the SuperFriends

[Schad]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1312519277' post='2772420']
I'm not a delegate of course, but you may have noticed that the showing of most of the Maroon alliances was pretty subpar.

Or are you trying to dispute that assessment?
[/quote]

I'm pointing out that the goodwill tour hits a bit of a pothole around the time that you have Xiphosis publicly stating that the other maroon alliances can hold their own with anyone, while privately telling allies that they're incompetent. And that the contrast therein, and the ease with which he slags long-standing allies, might be the sort of thing that has led you to the position you're in now.


[quote]The war was a wakeup call for quite a few people. [/quote]

So he believed that they were incompetent a few months ago, but not now. Guess we'll have to wait a few months 'til the next logdump to find out.

[Detlev]

We are going to enjoy stomping you, SF!

None moreso than Xiphosis!

Edited August 5, 2011 by Detlev

[Delta1212]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312517975' post='2772397']
I see that this is a step in the right direction from you. Although you have wronged me, I'm glad to see it. So I ask:

Do you plan on attempting to right that which you did wrong? You know what I am referring to.

EDIT: I noticed in the earlier pages, when Delta addressed our issue with CsN, while doing a very grand and seemingly persuasive job of absolving his allies of all guilt, seemed to ignore what was firmly established in around 90 pages of myself and some friends slapping those who blindly supported extortion around in a debate. Seeing as I feel no need to rehash the obvious for the millionth time now, you can field my question in the way that it was intended: that a wrong act was indeed committed and that I am curious to see if you have any intent on rectifying it, or simply justifying your sadistic actions to the public.
[/quote]
Unless you think trying to distinguish between Bad and The Worst Thing Anyone Has Ever Done is an attempt at justification, I really wasn't. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in that?

In response to your question, what would you consider an adequate attempt to right things? I ask this because, from what I've seen, most people don't actually accept attempts to make up for anything in this game once it's settled in. Meaning no offense, but there's been enough vitriol (and I'm not going to criticize your reasons for it, I'm just saying) directed at CSN from DT over the last few months that I honestly don't think it's a salvageable situation short of CSN committing mass suicide.

[Aurion]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312519864' post='2772426']
Which is all the more revealing when you see that a supposedly "awakened" alliance will stand by the atrocities of their allies...
[/quote]

You're being a little hyperbolic, I think...

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1312520118' post='2772427']
I'm pointing out that the goodwill tour hits a bit of a pothole around the time that you have Xiphosis publicly stating that the other maroon alliances can hold their own with anyone, while privately telling allies that they're incompetent. And that the contrast therein, and the ease with which he slags long-standing allies, might be the sort of thing that has led you to the position you're in now.

So he believed that they were incompetent a few months ago, but not now. Guess we'll have to wait a few months 'til the next logdump to find out.
[/quote]

I'm really not supposed to be answering questions, so I'll just point this one out- you [i]vastly[/i] underestimate the amount of work the alliances on Maroon have put in since the war in order to improve themselves.

CSN will probably never get credit for all the work they've put in because they're such a trendy hate target but give CRAP, TTK, and RIA some love for the work they're doing, hmm? Seriously. In some ways it's literally night and day. And I don't even have the full scope of the work the CA alliances are putting in since I'm only a grunt.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Aurion

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1312520823' post='2772436']
You're being a little hyperbolic, I think...



I'm really not supposed to be answering questions, so I'll just point this one out- you [i]vastly[/i] underestimate the amount of work the alliances on Maroon have put in since the war in order to improve themselves.

CSN will probably never get credit for all the work they've put in because they're such a trendy hate target but give CRAP, TTK, and RIA some love for the work they're doing, hmm? Seriously. In some ways it's literally night and day. And I don't even have the full scope of the work the CA alliances are putting in since I'm only a grunt.
[/quote]
This. I've heard pretty much all of maroon has gone balls out in terms of improving war readiness lately.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hyperion321

[Krack]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1312517431' post='2772388']
Just to set the record straight publically to anyone who actually cares what the GOD-Sparta dynamic was like during our decision making process, here are some logs (below). These are not meant to paint anyone in any negative or positive light, this is just what happened. I think you will all agree that the factors that went into our choices were a little bit more grey-area than a non chaining clause or even just Athen's requests, and I think you all will also agree that when it comes to a bloc mate, Xiph will do anything and everything he can for them. That being said, I still regret how it was handled and since then we have made it a top priority to rectify our mistakes with RIA.

So...anyway...here you go.

[i][b]logs[/b][/i]
[/quote]

Not sure I would have posted those logs; made you both look bad.

EDIT: Particularly when nobody was asking for them.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Krack

[Bob Ilyani]

This thread is only getting better.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1312521149' post='2772439']
Not sure I would have posted those logs; made you both look bad.

EDIT: Particularly when nobody was asking for them.
[/quote]
Nobody was asking for them, but I wanted to detail my thought process publically so that people will stop asking about it. It wasn't about non chaining clauses, or choosing one ally over another, it was about taking a hard decision and trying to find a way around it. Most people that ask me about how I handled that war don't know why we did what we did, or why xiph did what he did. Now you do, and now we can all move on. I've since apologized to everyone from RIA to NoR for how I handled that war, and now that you all know my reasonings we can stop binging it up over, and over, and over agian.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hyperion321

[Dajobo]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1312511665' post='2772308']
Says all the members, government or general, of other alliances who have come to laugh with members of TOP at the obvious lies Dajobo tells in Q&As on their boards about Polar's actions in the BiPolar War. Sadly for you, your esteemed Regent thinks that he is far cleverer than he actually is, and so he thinks that he can get people to simply believe his words--those of a member of NpO government, no less--and abstain from checking out the massive amount of available evidence that proves he's lying.
[/quote]

That's quite a fabrication Crymson even for you. Feel free to point out when I have lied anywhere at all about Bi-Polar but please start your own discussion on it and stop trying to derail yet another topic.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Dajobo

[Krack]

EDIT: Nevermind. Moving on is a good idea.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Krack

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1312521040' post='2772437']
This. I've heard pretty much all of maroon has gone balls out in terms of improving war readiness lately.
[/quote]

Pretty much. The comment with regards to TTK and CRAP [b]is[/b] due to how they performed against GATO, the logs predate RIA asking them to come in. And yeah, I don't have much to add to the logs - that was the maddest I'd been in a very long time and it took a pretty decent amount of time to reconcile Sparta's position in that war. /shrug

[Banksy]

I like the claims by non-GOD SF members that Xiph isn't the driving force of the bloc and that it's just a myth. Logically this means you are equally responsible for the decisions SF has made over the years regarding disbandments, ridiculous reps and shotgun diplomacy. Taking credit for the various SF faux pas would be the last thing i'd be doing, personally.

[Bob]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312520340' post='2772429']
In response to your question, what would you consider an adequate attempt to right things? I ask this because, from what I've seen, most people don't actually accept attempts to make up for anything in this game once it's settled in. Meaning no offense, but there's been enough vitriol (and I'm not going to criticize your reasons for it, I'm just saying) directed at CSN from DT over the last few months that I honestly don't think it's a salvageable situation short of CSN committing mass suicide.
[/quote]
An apology and a repayment of reps, payable by their 2k+ tech nations. Also an apology for making us apologize.

That would be a step in the right direction, if they actually wanted to make amends.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Penlugue Solaris

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1312522023' post='2772455']
I like the claims by non-GOD SF members that Xiph isn't the driving force of the bloc and that it's just a myth. Logically this means you are equally responsible for the decisions SF has made over the years regarding disbandments, ridiculous reps and shotgun diplomacy. Taking credit for the various SF faux pas would be the last thing i'd be doing, personally.
[/quote]
Luckily, you aren't me, then.

[Hyperion321]

you edited yours. I'll edit mine.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Hyperion321

[ShouAS]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1312521608' post='2772449']
EDIT: Nevermind. Moving on is a good idea.
[/quote]

This is something that every ruler of ever nation n ever alliance needs to read. Past is past, people made friends and will keep them, but people constantly trying to publicly make others look bad out of grudge only makes you look like a pathetic crybaby.

Question to SF

All: If you could go back in time and cause a power cut the moment you attempted to join CN so that you never ended up here, would you?

[Velocity111]

@ the parties involved with forcing reps out of DT

Are you ok with having forced reps out of DT? If not, are you willing to pay them back? If so, are you ok with having the same reps per unit of NS imposed on your alliance should you ever lose a war in your future?

[Banksy]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312522124' post='2772457']
Luckily, you aren't me, then.
[/quote]
I've always had an aversion towards putting the nails in my own coffin.

This thread is becoming laughably pathetic tbh. From Ego-Friendly's statements that "SF just wants to survive" to Xiph's attempt to tone down his usual "i'm so tough" persona ITT, it's got the feeling of a desperate plea to look cute-and-cuddly to any ~neutral~ parties in your pissing contest with Mj. If anything, because what you're doing is so obvious it must actually be harming your position because it is solidifying people's perceptions about the sides in a future war, something that was not happening just a couple of months ago.

Seriously, who the $%&@ takes the time to answer "do you like pasta or pizza?"

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1312522165' post='2772459']
If you could go back in time and cause a power cut the moment you attempted to join CN so that you never ended up here, would you?
[/quote]

Pretty sure anyone that's done FA for any stretch would say yes to that one - yes.

[Crymson]

[quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1312522165' post='2772459']
This is something that every ruler of ever nation n ever alliance needs to read. Past is past, people made friends and will keep them, but people constantly trying to publicly make others look bad out of grudge only makes you look like a pathetic crybaby.
[/quote]

This game would be astonishingly boring if everybody got along.

[ShouAS]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1312522926' post='2772463']
I've always had an aversion towards putting the nails in my own coffin.

This thread is becoming laughably pathetic tbh. From Ego-Friendly's statements that "SF just wants to survive" to Xiph's attempt to tone down his usual "i'm so tough" persona ITT, it's got the feeling of a desperate plea to look cute-and-cuddly to any ~neutral~ parties in your pissing contest with Mj. If anything, because what you're doing is so obvious it must actually be harming your position because it is solidifying people's perceptions about the sides in a future war, something that was not happening just a couple of months ago.

Seriously, who the $%&@ takes the time to answer "do you like pasta or pizza?"
[/quote]

Honestly I have to disagree with you, as someone who has had zero opinion of SF when I started reading this thread, my opinions of each alliance was as follows
GOD - meh
CSN - No opinion
RnR - No opinion
RIA - <3 Mogar

After reading this thread my opinions are now

GOD - No opinion
CSN - Wanna get to know Liz
RnR - No opinion
RIA - <3 Mogar
NG - Easy to make cry

So from an outsiders POV this thread has done nothing of my over all opinion of SF, but has made me totally apathetic to the alliances that seem to be so butthurt because their TV is stuck on the history channel.

[ShouAS]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1312523254' post='2772467']
This game would be astonishingly boring if everybody got along.
[/quote]

Oh heck no, people wouldn't get along, there will always be people spying or doing stupid stuff that causes war, what I'm saying is people should forget about the past and go look for fresh drama with new alliances you haven't publicly lambasted yet.

A metaphor would be, "The drama is like an old wound, sure it gave an adrenalin rush when you first got it, but now its festering and infected. You should clean it out, close it up and go look for another place to get wounded on for that new rush"




((Also everything I say here is my personal OOC opinion and bares no relation to the thoughts of my alliances, our allies or our enemies))

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312520340' post='2772429']
Unless you think trying to distinguish between Bad and The Worst Thing Anyone Has Ever Done is an attempt at justification, I really wasn't. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in that?

In response to your question, what would you consider an adequate attempt to right things? I ask this because, from what I've seen, most people don't actually accept attempts to make up for anything in this game once it's settled in. Meaning no offense, but there's been enough vitriol (and I'm not going to criticize your reasons for it, I'm just saying) directed at CSN from DT over the last few months that I honestly don't think it's a salvageable situation short of CSN committing mass suicide.
[/quote]
I didn't catch the distinction, forgive me. To me, it struck me as a "yeah, it sucked, but you'd do the same in his situation" kind of thing. I don't fault you for that.

As far as your mass suicide claim goes, I think they're well on their way to doing that. I'll let Bob handle our answer:
[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1312522065' post='2772456']
An apology and a repayment of reps, payable by their 2k+ tech nations. Also an apology for making us apologize.

That would be a step in the right direction, if they actually wanted to make amends.
[/quote]
DT tends to be a forgiving group. We're pretty reasonable people, despite the esteemed and worthy-to-lead Liz Girard's babble earlier in the thread about us being oh-so-difficult to work with. I mean, every now and then we get in a huff and storm out of discussions ... excuse me, hold on, someone's whispering something in my ear. Wait, really? That was [i]her[/i] that did that? Sheesh, and they have her running the place? No wonder they've made a thread groveling on their knees, begging to be looked at with indifference rather than disgust.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean for you to hear my inner monologue. That was a little immature of me. Back to what I was saying, I think Bob is very correct in saying that if CsN approached DT with genuine goodwill and a working desire to set things right between us, many of us would be receptive. Now, that's obviously not an official statement and we're just two guys in an alliance of 50, but I think it's important to emphasize that a few of us see this more as an unresolved conflict than a score that can only be settled in blood.

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1312520823' post='2772436']
You're being a little hyperbolic, I think...
[/quote]
Perhaps I have a flair for the dramatic, at least as far as words are concerned. It's fun.

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1312521318' post='2772443']
This thread is only getting better.
[/quote]
You're welcome .

[quote name='Velocity111' timestamp='1312522555' post='2772460']are you ok with having the same reps per unit of NS imposed on your alliance should you ever lose a war in your future?
[/quote]
I'm going to predict that it's likely one of them will say something along the lines of "it's the right of the winning alliance to impose whatever demands they see fit." If they do, or already have while I was typing this post, I'll make a sig with that quote in advance of the inevitable !@#$%*ing and moaning that will result if they are given the same treatment.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1312500935' post='2772159']
[b]First: You're ignoring the community aspect of the game. When you disband an alliance, you're not only disbanding an in-game alliance but a community.
[/b]

Not really. \m/'s forums were around for how long after they disbanded? I can assure you our boards would persist as well. When you disband an alliance, you disband an in-game affiliation - everything outside of that is in the hands of the individual.[/quote]
The two are very intertwined. \m/'s forums were around but they went inactive. Sure it's possible that a community could continue to exist but in few cases is it likely that it will, at least at the same level that it did.

[quote][b]Second: Making the stakes so high encourages people to only do things for survival and not try to branch out and take risks. That's why many people stuck to NPO and its friends for so long, because the consequences of being caught outside of the ruling clique were so harsh.
[/b]

Because that's not [i]exactly[/i] how the world has operated since Karma?[/quote]
To a much lesser extent. You see far more people willing to form independent blocks, speak out against whoever is "in power", etc.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1312500988' post='2772161']
[b]Disagreeing and holding a grudge are two different things. It's not that Xiphosis disagrees with what they did in the past, he holds it as a grudge and actively makes it a very important part of his FA approach, hence cancelling on GOONS when MK signed with TOP. [/b]

We've never been able to agree on a version of the past, frankly. It's hard to move forward when you can't even get that far. This was the problem we had in our QnAs with them, and until that happens, it's hard to move past.[/quote]
You don't have to agree on a version of events to move past it, or to not make it a major part of your foreign affairs. I can think of plenty of examples of past events where MK's story doesn't match that of those that we have neutral or even friendly ties with. We either don't care or agree to disagree. There is nothing forcing you to make a big deal out of your karma era disagreements with TOP.

[Banksy]

[quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1312523358' post='2772469']
CSN - Wanna get to know Liz
RIA - <3 Mogar[/quote]
Judging by these two statements, your opinion doesn't really count for much because you were never predisposed towards liking an alliance containing adults.