Gott Mit Uns!

[nosoup4you]

Turnabout is fair play, I suppose. I was personally tasked, as MoFA of TGE, with threatening NoR with disbandment should they keep Martens in their ranks when NoR reformed.

I'm still working on it...Be afraid NoR, be very afraid.

Edited July 6, 2011 by nosoup4you

[Stewie]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1309973686' post='2750480']Should I expect that you will also be raiding VE, GOONS, NoR or just those who can't defend themselves?
[/quote]

I'll raid them when I eventually decide to ascend to a different plane of existance

[FeaR_LeSs]

Just. Stay. Dead.

[RePePe]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1309973686' post='2750480']Should I expect that you will also be raiding VE, GOONS, NoR or just those who can't defend themselves?
[/quote]

The whole point of raiding is picking a target that can't defend themselves. Otherwise, you'd lose more than you gain which would defeat one of the main purposes of tech raiding. I really don't see what you're going for here.

[Crazyman93]

I love how NoR is talking like they own Black, and there are three separate alliances in Black that could kick the crap out of them

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1309972086' post='2750465']
Some kinds of growth are healthy. Other kinds of growth are malignant. One needs to develop a discerning eye to spot the difference. If you go back and read non-Nordreich comments, I think you'll see that most agree with our diagnosis.
[/quote]

Hey now, you're generally a pretty reasonable guy and I don't think you exactly meant it this way, but you might want to give this line the axe from your list of positions. Founding an action in a single parties determination of what is or isn't beneficial/malignant to "color growth" is a dangerous seed to plant. Take it from the Green team :x

Anywho, I really doubt TGE will be able to grow its way back off the ground or past 10 or 20 members, so this whole thread will probably end up moot.

[Chief Black Hawk]

It would be really cool if all these zombie alliances just merged into one zombie alliance with a zombie theme.

[Gobb]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1309973686' post='2750480']
I love the fact that because I posted a funny picture you think that I'd support an unprovoked attack against an alliance.
[/quote]
Yeah, it was just a joke post

I find it distasteful how you're accusing people attacking TGE of anything while you yourself are posting replies saying you'd rather see the alliance dead than alive. TGE's a fledgling alliance who's pretty much loathed throughout the cyberverse and is desperate at rectifying their past PR disasters. Wouldn't you agree that for an alliance in TGE's situation having people post death wishes to them is rather damaging in a world where wars are won with words as much as they're won with combat? Like it or not, you're encouraging hostile behaviour in others towards TGE with your own and it's hypocritical of you to judge them.

Btw if you really think the attacks are unprovoked, they are just as unprovoked as your own hostile behaviour.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Lord Gobb

[Vinzent Zeppelin]

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1309971540' post='2750457']
It's literally 5 people.
[/quote]

Right, that's what I said.

[quote]
I seem to recall another German alliance who reformed, despite it's previous incarnation being held in disdain by most of the community, and no one gave them any trouble.

It would be nice if said alliance could do the same for TGE.
[/quote]

Clearly we weren't disliked [i]that[/i] much, then, were we? Rhetorical. Besides, there are a few important differences here. Nordreich's Reunion:

[list][*]Was planned over the course of several weeks, with the groundwork being a year or more in the making.
[*]Involved many individuals who were original members, with many of those having been officers or government.
[*]Occurred after we had established many key elements of a legitimate alliance: A Charter, a government, a team colour policy, members.
[*]Occurred after we had extended feelers to several important parties, including those potentially inimical, and used our awareness of the political landscape to maximize our chances for success.[/list]

I see none of that here -- just one person with a one-day old nation calling himself "Emperor" and claiming TGE is back.

[janax]

Justified attack or not, the "do something about it or shutup" attitude and general d-bagginess of responses from parties in this thread has really reflected poorly on their respective alliances.

Not that it matters what I think, I suppose.

Edited July 6, 2011 by janax

[Enrage]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1309979611' post='2750558']
Justified attack or not, the "do something about it or shutup" attitude and general d-bagginess of responses from parties in this thread has really reflected poorly on their respective alliances.

Not that it matters what I think, I suppose.
[/quote]

Ummmm... NO U

[Enrage]

Just merge and be one big happy German family. Isn't it all about German nationalism?

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1309973686' post='2750480']
I'll take you totally avoiding to argument about what I said as a recognition of the truth in my words. [/quote]

Which argument are you referring to? Thus far you've said "Zombies should be killed" and "but not by Nordreich." Somehow you seem not to notice the contradiction.

Look, I've got no problem with your irrational NoR hatred. (I suspect that I'm not the only one within the alliance who finds it more amusing than insulting.) But do yourself and everyone else a favor. If you're going to say something, don't go and contradict yourself so soon thereafter. You will save yourself from looking stupid.

[quote]A classic response, translating: "I'll just insult you and with that try to make people forgot that my arguments are inexistent" [/quote]

*sigh*

Because I care so much, I'm going to help you to understand the difference between a counterpoint and a personal attack.

Counterpoint: "Because of X, Y and Z, your arguments are foolish and childish."

Personal Attack: "Your arguments are laughable because you are laughable. That they are delivered in a kind of pidgin English makes them all the more enjoyable. You are a waste of space. Your only redeeming feature is that you occasionally produce decent mid-level graphics, but this is a skill possessed by so many that even this does not represent a continued reason for your persistent use of everyone else's oxygen."

Note that in these hypothetical examples the first references your opinions, while the second does not address the opinions at all except to use them as a convenient segue into a stream of insults.

If you need any more help with English comprehension, please do not hesitate to ask. In the meantime, please enjoy this quote from the founder of TGE 1.0:

[quote name='Frederick III' timestamp='1309952531' post='2750308']
You there, Wilhelm. GET OUT. Seriously, don't recreate TGE. Also, go attack Wilhelm.. more point in attacking him then in attacking the others.
[/quote]

My only quibble with this statement is that the others ought to have been attacked a long time ago. I'm frankly a bit surprised that no one had noticed them until now. I speak of raiding alliances, of course. (Nordreich has a no-raiding policy, so our members can be forgiven for not researching every four- or five-man AA that exists.)

[quote]I love the fact that because I posted a funny picture you think that I'd support an unprovoked attack against an alliance. [/quote]
[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1309926781' post='2750047']
The second zombie alliance in two days... When you people will understand that what is dead, should remain dead?

[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/2s15d29.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Me? I love the fact that when you are confronted by a blatant example of your own doubletalk you are incapable of seeing it. If nothing else, it means that your arguments are consistently stupid.

As I said above, all you have said thus far is "Zombies should be killed" and "but not by Nordreich." The reason you don't see people flocking to your defense here is that it is apparent that your own personal dislike of Nordreich has blinded you to the foolishness of your statements. Your last several posts have had a "Look at me I am winning!" quality to them that make them all the more embarrassing to your friends and entertaining to everyone else.

The best piece of advice you have received thus far:

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1309938332' post='2750234']
d34th, shut up. you're making yourself look like a fool
[/quote]

I would agree, except that it would deny others the opportunity to witness a full-blown emotional meltdown.

Now, as to the source of this dislike, I neither know nor care. I do not recall a single interaction between you and my alliance, so its origin is almost certainly illogical. The most recent interaction between our respective alliances occurred when yours proposed a rather hurried MDoAP mere days before an attack on your alliance kicked off the last major war. Since damn near everyone saw this attack coming from miles away, the proposed treaty was received as being cynical, desperate and mildly insulting. I do not believe there has been any significant contact between our alliances since then, but as a retiree I am located far, far outside of the hypothetical 'loop'.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1309977469' post='2750531']
Hey now, you're generally a pretty reasonable guy and I don't think you exactly meant it this way, but you might want to give this line the axe from your list of positions. Founding an action in a single parties determination of what is or isn't beneficial/malignant to "color growth" is a dangerous seed to plant. Take it from the Green team :x[/quote]

You're right. Let me try that again.

*ahem*

Any kind of re-formed TGE would be a blight on [i]any[/i] color sphere. The only effective way to treat this kind of blemish is to cut out the most obvious mass and cauterize whatever might remain. It should then be closely monitored and treated aggressively in the event a subsequent flare-up should occur.

I do so love being inclusive.

[Jacob the Malignant]

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1309978648' post='2750543']
Right, that's what I said.



Clearly we weren't disliked [i]that[/i] much, then, were we? Rhetorical. Besides, there are a few important differences here. Nordreich's Reunion:

[list][*]Was planned over the course of several weeks, with the groundwork being a year or more in the making.
[*]Involved many individuals who were original members, with many of those having been officers or government.
[*]Occurred after we had established many key elements of a legitimate alliance: A Charter, a government, a team colour policy, members.
[*]Occurred after we had extended feelers to several important parties, including those potentially inimical, and used our awareness of the political landscape to maximize our chances for success.[/list]

I see none of that here -- just one person with a one-day old nation calling himself "Emperor" and claiming TGE is back.
[/quote]

It's a shame the commie alliances didn't do the same to you folks when you reformed

[Finnish Commie]

[quote name='Jacob the Malignant' timestamp='1309980945' post='2750572']
It's a shame the commie alliances didn't do the same to you folks when you reformed
[/quote]
I concur, never has an alliance deserved that more than NoR reforming.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1309978648' post='2750543']
Clearly we weren't disliked [i]that[/i] much, then, were we? Rhetorical. Besides, there are a few important differences here. Nordreich's Reunion:

[list][*]Was planned over the course of several weeks, with the groundwork being a year or more in the making.
[*]Involved many individuals who were original members, with many of those having been officers or government.
[*]Occurred after we had established many key elements of a legitimate alliance: A Charter, a government, a team colour policy, members.
[*]Occurred after we had extended feelers to several important parties, including those potentially inimical, and used our awareness of the political landscape to maximize our chances for success.[/list]

I see none of that here -- just one person with a one-day old nation calling himself "Emperor" and claiming TGE is back.
[/quote]

I think we both know the answer to that first one


So if TGE would have been as organized as [s]NoV[/s] NoR when they came back, this revival wouldn't have been met with this level of animosity?

At the end of the day, this was still a childish move, and we both know that.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Ayatollah Bromeini

[Bob]

[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1309981003' post='2750573']
I concur, never has an alliance deserved that more than NoR reforming.
[/quote]
obligatory "u mad" post


Also, I think that this is kind of a bad discussion, because NoR just believes their refounding is in poor taste from what I see, and is not actively trying to kill them. Nikanor I believe earlier on said the chance of them reforming and becoming a solid alliance is not eliminated from NoR's mindset.

I can say that my respect for this refound has increased from reading Wilhelm's replies, so I can only wish him the best of luck in redeeming this alliance.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Penlugue Solaris

[Joey67500]

While I don't approve of someone reforming TGE. And at the very least, it should have been planned better or perhaps using a different name, I do wish to point out that just because of past wrong doings doesn't mean you have to attack them.

When GOONS came back, they made it clear they weren't the same. And they aren't. I can respect them for improving 'their' reputation and for the same reason, I don't see a problem with this.

This fellow took an alliance he liked, and is trying to give it back meaning, I can't fault him for that. I do agree, he should have gotten a protector, he should have probably re-thought the name choice or spoken with NoR but if he is trying to start anew and isn't recreating the alliance that everyone hated, I can't see any issue.

The very least we can do is let him exist, if he fails, he fails. If he succeeds, he succeeds. And if it turns into the old TGE, we kill it... with fire.

Edit: clarification.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Joey67500

[sir pwnage]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1309981467' post='2750580']
Also, I think that this is kind of a bad discussion, because NoR just believes their refounding is in poor taste from what I see, and is not actively trying to kill them.

[/quote]

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?searchstring=All&search=The+German+Empire

How do you get "not actively trying to kill them" from that war screen? 7 active wars against an alliance of 5 (+1 in peace mode) seems like an active attempt to kill them to me.

In addition, the NoR posts in this thread have been far from encouraging, although they are certainly not the only detractors.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Jacob the Malignant' timestamp='1309980945' post='2750572']
It's a shame the commie alliances didn't do the same to you folks when you reformed
[/quote]

We approached the CyberLeft in the run-up to our reformation. We didn't hear any complaints. (And by 'we' I mean 'I', as I was the one who approached INT, LSF and, yes, TGE.)

Perhaps there is some kind of revisionism floating about that says otherwise? If so, all I can do is say that it's untrue.


[quote name='Finnish Commie' timestamp='1309981003' post='2750573']
I concur, never has an alliance deserved that more than NoR reforming.
[/quote]

Please see above.

[quote name='Ayatollah Bromeini' timestamp='1309981153' post='2750574']
So if TGE would have been as organized as [s]NoV[/s] NoR when they came back, this revival wouldn't have been met with this level of animosity? [/quote]

First, the fact that you're implying that NoR is a revived NoV shows a rather shocking amount of political ignorance. If anything, NoV was an attempt to revive the best of NoR. This is a digression, however.

Now to your question.

Look again at the responses here. I would especially direct you to the statement made by TGE's original founder. Bearing all of this in mind, I believe that if the OP had gone to the trouble of speaking with the original TGE's friends, adversaries and founders, the responses (in order) would have been:

- "Dear God, why?"

- "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....no, seriously. What can I help you with?"

and

- "Stop it now."

In other words, if the OP had gone to the lengths Nordreich did before its own reformation, this announcement would not have been made at all.

[quote]
At the end of the day, this was still a childish move, and we both know that.
[/quote]

You seem to be blissfully unaware of the number of times TGE interfered in Nordreich's affairs, was caught red-handed, was protected by its exasperated allies and then issued a lame apology that nobody believed.

So no, I do not 'know' that this is a childish move.

What I do know is that this announcement is an affront to the alliance I once led. It is a provocation by an individual who seems to be too foolish to know his history and too proud to speak with the founder of the original alliance he now claims to speak for. (The founder, btw, has made it quite clear that he doesn't object to these attacks.)

[Chief Black Hawk]

[quote name='Joey67500' timestamp='1309981891' post='2750584']
While I don't approve of someone reforming TGE. And at the very least, it should have been planned better or perhaps using a different name, I do wish to point out that just because of past wrong doings doesn't mean you have to attack them.

When GOONS came back, they made it clear they weren't the same. And they aren't. I can respect them for improving 'their' reputation and for the same reason, I don't see a problem with this.

This fellow took an alliance he liked, and is trying to give it back meaning, I can't fault him for that. I do agree, he should have gotten a protector, he should have probably re-thought the name choice [b]or spoken with NoR[/b] but if he is trying to start anew and isn't recreating the alliance that everyone hated, I can't see any issue.

The very least we can do is let him exist, if he fails, he fails. If he succeeds, he succeeds. And if it turns into the old TGE, we kill it... with fire.

Edit: clarification.
[/quote]

I agree with this post besides the bold print. You don't need another alliances permission to start your own alliance.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Chief Black Hawk' timestamp='1309983049' post='2750602']
I agree with this post besides the bold print. You don't need another alliances permission to start your own alliance.
[/quote]
You do if there is any kind of controversy surrounding the alliance you intend to re-form, otherwise things are apt to end up like....like....well, like this.

[Kaiser Wilhelm I]

I still don't understand why this thread is about Nordreich, and whether or not it is in the right to do what they're currently doing. We clearly have some debts to pay and that is okay. There is no "right way" to go about this, and individuals trying to say that more planning should have gone into it is irrelevant. We would still be where we are, and the protectorate would likely have been pulled in as well. This whole ordeal has to be endured if The German Empire is to come through at all. That's all I am going to speak in regards to the matter about protectorates and preparation.

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1309967856' post='2750419']
When TGE disbanded, the resounding public sentiment varied between "it's about time" and "probably for the best". While I can understand the motivation to reform an alliance -- I certainly did my part in our own Reunion -- sometimes it's just better to realize that certain alliances are not meant to come back, and move on to greener pastures. The German Empire's entire history is coloured by corruption, nepotism, persecution of its own members, provocation, and general ineptitude. Additionally, this new "alliance" consists of yourself and four nations that have lingered on the AA after the original disbanded for whatever reason. Until/unless His Majesty Nemhauser declares otherwise, we do not recognize TGE as a legitimate political entity; if you wish to change that, come talk to us -- but I can't make any promises. Good luck.
[/quote]

The mistakes and corruption of the past is something that we have a great deal of work to overcome. But I remember a time when this was not always the case, and that The German Empire did once stand for a pride in Germanic people, culture and history. We do not seek to erase our mistakes, but rather to prove to you and the rest of the community that ideas that were once good, can thrive again. Regardless of how insurmountable the odds might seem at this point, it is crucial to remember that the German spirit is indomitable. Surrender, or otherwise giving up is not something we can easily swallow. That is why some of us have decided to reform the alliance, and stick to the course at hand.

We understand that you cannot recognize or accept our existence at present. That's fine, because we [i]are not asking you to[/i]. We want your membership to desire a friendship with an alliance that will one day prove to be a reliable source of camaraderie and loyalty. We're not seeking to be boot lickers, or lap dogs of any sort. there will come a time one day when we will all look back and see this whole series of events as a necessary step towards a restoration of a once grand alliance. I only hope that the membership of Nordreich will understand that we will not yield from this course. I am looking forward to talking with you about our mutual future in the community.

Take care, Vinzent Zeppelin!


[quote name='nosoup4you' timestamp='1309970195' post='2750439']
For anyone defending this guy's right to exist peacefully, etc...

[img]http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5273/poaching.jpg[/img]

wait until he starts trying to poach your members.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone has to point out the two conditions I laid out in the first sentence. But for your sake, I will do so:

If [b]you are still active[/b], and if you [b]are non aligned[/b]. Meaning, if you're [b]not in an alliance[/b] at present. I am growing tired of the character assassination attempts and the consistent lack of attention to detail in this thread. Several instances there have been posts either by myself or others in regards to who actually knew about the reformation project, who is being recruited or invited, how many members we have etc;

If you have a problem with The German Empire, that's fine. I will chalk it up to our past disgraces and ineptitude. But if you could do me a favor and carry yourself with a little more dignity and honor, much like Nordreich has done so. At least they're content to openly engage us in warfare and not make snide comments and veiled threats. We are here to stay, and we realize there is a lot of work to do. We'll take our lickings, but I assure you; we are going nowhere.


[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1309978648' post='2750543']
Right, that's what I said.



Clearly we weren't disliked [i]that[/i] much, then, were we? Rhetorical. Besides, there are a few important differences here. Nordreich's Reunion:

[list][*]Was planned over the course of several weeks, with the groundwork being a year or more in the making.
[*]Involved many individuals who were original members, with many of those having been officers or government.
[*]Occurred after we had established many key elements of a legitimate alliance: A Charter, a government, a team colour policy, members.
[*]Occurred after we had extended feelers to several important parties, including those potentially inimical, and used our awareness of the political landscape to maximize our chances for success.[/list]

I see none of that here -- just one person with a one-day old nation calling himself "Emperor" and claiming TGE is back.
[/quote]

First, and respectfully, there was communication amongst our members using the AA of The German Empire. The active membership deferred to my project and otherwise supported it. If they didn't, then they would not still be on the AA. If they "forgot" I am certain that the attacks by Nordreich would have awakened them to their predicament. This wasn't a solo endeavor and our membership has [i]increased[/i] since the posting of this thread.

Secondly it is important to remember that everyone in the alliance is former membership. Granted, I was not in government however I suppose that is a blessing. That is, unless you want Prince Albert or President Chris back at the helm of things? Our former leadership was primarily at fault for the many failures of the original TGE. Why would you desire that we had many of our former government in power again?

We also have established a charter, forums and a network of communications to which everyone stays in good, orderly communication with one another. We have not decided on a team color as of yet, since we're more preoccupied with other items. I don't think this is a reasonable objection to our reformation since the working levers of government right now primarily rest upon myself and one other person of sorts. I think this is a reasonable course to take when confronted with the amount of work ahead of us.

Lastly, as I stated a few times earlier in this thread. There was no "right way" to do this. These events would have taken place regardless of who was protecting us. You cannot deny that if we had another alliance protecting us that you wouldn't have attempted to roll us (rightfully so or otherwise), and take the protectors with us. TGE is a special circumstance when it comes to restarting old ideas. These events must be undertaken, and there is no clean way to reform The German Empire. It just has to be done this way if it is to work at all in the future.

[Kaiser Martens]

[quote]I concur, never has an alliance deserved that more than NoR reforming. [/quote]

Perhaps, but as usual the Communists were too weak and cowardly to use their one shot that they had at getting rid of us.

But then. There is another alliance which did not waste its shot - which actually did fire at us and missed.
TGE itself. They wanted to murder us, and we were only saved by quick Nueva Vida intervention.

Now the situation is opposite. But our axes met their targets.

[quote]
The very least we can do is let him exist, if he fails, he fails. If he succeeds, he succeeds. And if it turns into the old TGE, we kill it... with fire.
[/quote]

That is another problem. While arguably their new leader might not be a Nordreich hater, the other members [i]are[/i]. Therefore TGE [i]is[/i] still the same. Another aspect in which they continue to be the same is in their improvised attitude when approaching world politics - their incompetence. Besides, this has got to be at least the sixth time in which TGE in some form or another tried to be nice to Nordreich for a while. It is a pattern. One day they act nice, the next day they are the same old selves. They are like a bipolar alliance.

We are not going to take any chances. Allowing TGE to exist would be irresponsible, a risk, and frankly, plain stupid. They are the ever-failing DDR to our West Germany. They will never rise again.

Back to the grave with them.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Kaiser Martens' timestamp='1309983352' post='2750609']

We are not going to take any chances. Allowing TGE to exist would be irresponsible, a risk, and frankly, plain stupid. They are the ever-failing DDR to our West Germany. They will never rise again.

Back to the grave with them.
[/quote]

Surely, you should retake your position as mouthpiece of NoR.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Il Impero Romano