An Invitation from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Crymson]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1310555498' post='2755417']
That sucks. Too bad [i]that[/i] war didn't exist. Instead, you had a choice of (a) defending IRON* and losing, or (b) doing nothing and continuing to be the #1 ranked alliance. You made a great choice *rolls eyes*.[/quote]

IRON was our closest ally at the time, so yes, we [b]did[/b] make a great choice. That you think it would have been better for us to cower in a corner in order to retain our stats, rather than support and protect our close friend, says a lot about your character.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Crymson

[Zombie Glaucon]

I'm interested in why TOP won't sell down to fight us if they (apparently, given the open planning/savoring of a future NpO beat-down ITT) want to stomp on us so badly. Surely infra < * ?

[Crymson]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1310595595' post='2755659']
I'm interested in why TOP won't sell down to fight us if they (apparently, given the open planning/savoring of a future NpO beat-down ITT) want to stomp on us so badly. Surely infra < * ?
[/quote]

Your baiting skills need work.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1310401745' post='2754422']
If we didn't go the route we went then the other choice was to do things the "normal" way which would have had IRON declare on a SuperFriend in support of NSO which would then bring us into the conflict against SuperFriends. Harmlin and CnG would have then gotten involved. The pre-emptive attack gave us a better chance of winning over the other option. This is what we believed at the time and its been reinforced by some of the people who was running the other side of the war. There is nothing "revisionist" about that.

If our name is "mud" in some random 1 man alliance then I'm okay with that.
[/quote]

imo, the key mistake that IRON-TOP and the whole pre-coalition coalition (Duckroll/Citadel/Poseidon/White/some PnL) was to pidgeon-hole you guys into fighting C&G instead of following an easier war to politically and militarily deal with. That was something that you guys, Lord Fingolfin et al had decided beforehand with military compatibility (Purplol fighting SF, TIDDT fighting C&G). RnR was obviously untouchable, and it was pretty clear that Fark was a trap, however, you should have attacked the 3rd and most obvious one, GOD. GOD had no treaties to Gramlins or C&G, closest things to it were the GOD-Sparta-Athens and the GOD-VE-OV-Vanguard connections. Either way, IRON and TOP had a ton of allies at the time to be able to counteract anyone or any grand coalition that GOD would have decided to throw against them. Sure, quite a lot could have been thrown at you, but that should obviously have been a smaller risk than throwing yourself at C&G, who in addition to fighting them, you would of had to fend off Sparta and anyone else associated with C&G but not at war yet (GATO or TPE, for example). And besides, who WOULDN'T relish the idea of nuking GOD into oblivion?

just my opinion however. Back to reviewing, revising and rewriting history everyone!

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1310444223' post='2754718']
Chill quit Planet Bob and Bob Janova became TOP's personal spokeman/apologist. In fact, nobody's reputation has sunk as far and as fast as Bob Janova's has since Karma. He's become a punchline.
[/quote]

Bob Janova lost credibility when he joined VE, and reversed his opinions on everything alongside the rest of his alliance. He was still relatively credible while in Gramlins (if not a little annoying).

[Crymson]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1310609946' post='2755787']
imo, the key mistake that IRON-TOP and the whole pre-coalition coalition (Duckroll/Citadel/Poseidon/White/some PnL) was to pidgeon-hole you guys into fighting C&G instead of following an easier war to politically and militarily deal with. That was something that you guys, Lord Fingolfin et al had decided beforehand with military compatibility (Purplol fighting SF, TIDDT fighting C&G). RnR was obviously untouchable, and it was pretty clear that Fark was a trap, however, you should have attacked the 3rd and most obvious one, GOD. GOD had no treaties to Gramlins or C&G, closest things to it were the GOD-Sparta-Athens and the GOD-VE-OV-Vanguard connections. Either way, IRON and TOP had a ton of allies at the time to be able to counteract anyone or any grand coalition that GOD would have decided to throw against them. Sure, quite a lot could have been thrown at you, but that should obviously have been a smaller risk than throwing yourself at C&G, who in addition to fighting them, you would of had to fend off Sparta and anyone else associated with C&G but not at war yet (GATO or TPE, for example). And besides, who WOULDN'T relish the idea of nuking GOD into oblivion?
[/quote]

There are a few flaws in your reasoning:

1) Attacking GOD wouldn't have accomplished much. NSO was under attack by numerous alliances, and Ivan was screaming for help from his allies. He wouldn't have accepted IRON attacking only GOD.
2) FARK would have declared war on IRON if the latter had attacked GOD, and MHA and the Gramlins would have followed.
3) It wouldn't have been militarily easy to deal with a bunch of alliances declaring war on us when we were already engaged. Heading off CnG was intended to remove from them the ability to declare on us when we were already engaged.

We'd have ended up fighting the same people, or maybe more. The only difference would have been an inability of Polaris to screw us over quite so badly.

[Drai]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1310595595' post='2755659']
I'm interested in why TOP won't sell down to fight us if they (apparently, given the open planning/savoring of a future NpO beat-down ITT) want to stomp on us so badly. Surely infra < * ?
[/quote]
Because that would be idiotic and it's funnier to watch you guys pretend/joke about how you're purposely staying out of their range to cover up how poorly your alliance has done in the past 2 years.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Drai

[Dajobo]

Drai one person isn't an alliance.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='KagetheSecond' timestamp='1310545015' post='2755395']
We're not likeable???
[/quote]
I think its because he's not in our circles nor invited to our hangouts ;/.

Also, stats don't make alliances no.1, a ~4 year old nation should know that.

[jerdge]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310610977' post='2755800']3) It wouldn't have been militarily easy to deal with a bunch of alliances declaring war on us when we were already engaged. Heading off CnG was intended to remove from them the ability to declare on us when we were already engaged.[/quote]
I am curious, was it considered to send most of TOP in "tactical" Peace Mode before exposing yourself to the risk of a C&G counter-attack? That could have been a decent compromise between military and political necessities.
If it was considered, what did determine your eventual decision not to go that route? (If you can share, of course.)

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1310612766' post='2755819']
Drai one person isn't an alliance.
[/quote]
To be fair it does seem to be more than just one TOP member baying for Polaris's blood, its fairly evident on a variety of different threads

[Marneus Calgar]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1310636693' post='2756010']
Its fairly evident on a variety of different threads
[/quote]
It's been fairly evident for a number of years now.

[Krack]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1310630916' post='2755988']
I think its because he's not in our circles nor invited to our hangouts ;/.

Also, stats don't make alliances no.1, a ~4 year old nation should know that.
[/quote]

I've labored to use the term "#1 [i]ranked[/i] alliance"; it's a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless. It's pretty obvious that TOP has never actually been the best alliance in Cybernations.

And yes, I admit, I've had no interaction with OMFG - they may be swell.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Marneus Calgar' timestamp='1310646070' post='2756052']
It's been fairly evident for a number of years now.
[/quote]
Dunno about a number of years...early 2010 certainly, but either way yeah it has been evident for a while.

[Crymson]

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1310633699' post='2755996']
I am curious, was it considered to send most of TOP in "tactical" Peace Mode before exposing yourself to the risk of a C&G counter-attack? That could have been a decent compromise between military and political necessities.
If it was considered, what did determine your eventual decision not to go that route? (If you can share, of course.)
[/quote]

In that event, part or all of CnG could have simply stayed out and neutralized most of TOP simply by existing. Too, our impact on the alliances we'd have declared war on would have been much smaller.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Crymson

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310610977' post='2755800']
There are a few flaws in your reasoning:

1) Attacking GOD wouldn't have accomplished much. NSO was under attack by numerous alliances, and Ivan was screaming for help from his allies. He wouldn't have accepted IRON attacking only GOD.
2) FARK would have declared war on IRON if the latter had attacked GOD, and MHA and the Gramlins would have followed.
3) It wouldn't have been militarily easy to deal with a bunch of alliances declaring war on us when we were already engaged. Heading off CnG was intended to remove from them the ability to declare on us when we were already engaged.

We'd have ended up fighting the same people, or maybe more. The only difference would have been an inability of Polaris to screw us over quite so badly.
[/quote]

1) At the point that GOD and Fark had declared war on NSO, most of our defensive slots were already filled by RnR.. GOD and Fark were basically the bait, and hadn't launched many wars against us.
2) If Fark would have attacked you anyways, that kind of nullifies the justification for your #1. And of course as we know how it played out, Fark (and Harmlins) attacked you anyways, and would have even if Grub didn't pull the rug underneath the floor.
3) It should have definitely been much easier both politically and militarily, to fend off using defensive activation clauses whatever was thrown out from you from GOD (a single alliance), including being able to activate some ODPs (possibly even TOBR) than what treaty chains were activated by attacking 7 separate alliances. The amount of firepower you would've been able to throw back at them would've been exponentially greater.
4) It's technically possible that C&G would've dogpiled you anyways, but far from certain... even if that did happen, like I said, you would have been in a MUCH stronger position politically. But regardless, C&G at the time wasn't [i]our[/i] enemy. If they had seen that TOP/IRON +co. had been effectively engaged by VE/SF/Harmlins/Sparta/Kronos, or seen that \m/'s coalition was clearly losing, it's quite possible that they would have activated other treaty chains (MK against TFD, for example, leading them to fight against ex-Agora/PnL, White, etc.) into a different front, or had just stayed out of it entirely.
5) Regardless of whether or not Grub pulled the rug from underneath you, back in early 2010 the world was MUCH more moralistic than it is today, and any pre-emptive attack would have shooed away many fence-sitters like NoR, GATO/IAA/LoSS (IAA had claimed they were also going to engage against \m/'s coalition, but wanted to help out Nemesis), Silence, etc. Like I said, and what you've acknowledged before to me in the past before the current revisionism, it was simply a dumb political move. Sparta attacking NV out of the blue this last war was an extremely dumb political move. And had Doomhouse's upper tier not been unassailable and unbeatable, their pre-emption could have been a dumb political move (NPO failed to capitalize on it too, but that's a completely different story).


tl;dr should have ripped GOD apart

[Crymson]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1310663147' post='2756119']
1) At the point that GOD and Fark had declared war on NSO, most of our defensive slots were already filled by RnR.. GOD and Fark were basically the bait, and hadn't launched many wars against us.
[/quote]

Then why was Ivan screaming for help? Our timetable was advanced by his urgency.

[quote]
2) If Fark would have attacked you anyways, that kind of nullifies the justification for your #1. And of course as we know how it played out, Fark (and Harmlins) attacked you anyways, and would have even if Grub didn't pull the rug underneath the floor.
[/quote]

FARK would have attacked IRON had IRON not attacked FARK.

[quote]
3) It should have definitely been much easier both politically and militarily, to fend off using defensive activation clauses whatever was thrown out from you from GOD (a single alliance), including being able to activate some ODPs (possibly even TOBR) than what treaty chains were activated by attacking 7 separate alliances. The amount of firepower you would've been able to throw back at them would've been exponentially greater.
[/quote]

You're not listening. CnG was waiting to go in against TOP and IRON. If we'd hit GOD, then we would have been countered by CnG. CnG was specifically earmarked by the other side to attack TOP and IRON once the two of us entered. Go ask them if you wish. How many oA chains this would have taken isn't really important; it would have happened. Karma had showed the value of ghost declarations and how easily they could bring alliances in who were relatively far off.

[quote]
4) It's technically possible that C&G would've dogpiled you anyways, but far from certain... even if that did happen, like I said, you would have been in a MUCH stronger position politically. But regardless, C&G at the time wasn't [i]our[/i] enemy. If they had seen that TOP/IRON +co. had been effectively engaged by VE/SF/Harmlins/Sparta/Kronos, or seen that \m/'s coalition was clearly losing, it's quite possible that they would have activated other treaty chains (MK against TFD, for example, leading them to fight against ex-Agora/PnL, White, etc.) into a different front, or had just stayed out of it entirely.
[/quote]

It's absolutely certain that CnG would have dogpiled us anyway. Go ask.

[quote]
5) Regardless of whether or not Grub pulled the rug from underneath you, back in early 2010 the world was MUCH more moralistic than it is today, and any pre-emptive attack would have shooed away many fence-sitters like NoR, GATO/IAA/LoSS (IAA had claimed they were also going to engage against \m/'s coalition, but wanted to help out Nemesis), Silence, etc. Like I said, and what you've acknowledged before to me in the past before the current revisionism, it was simply a dumb political move. Sparta attacking NV out of the blue this last war was an extremely dumb political move. And had Doomhouse's upper tier not been unassailable and unbeatable, their pre-emption could have been a dumb political move (NPO failed to capitalize on it too, but that's a completely different story).
[/quote]

It was a bad political move because we were betrayed and lost.

[quote]
tl;dr should have ripped GOD apart
[/quote]

This statement applies to every situation.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Crymson

[Aurion]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1310663147' post='2756119']
1) At the point that GOD and Fark had declared war on NSO, most of our defensive slots were already filled by RnR.. GOD and Fark were basically the bait, and hadn't launched many wars against us.
[/quote]

What TOP/IRON et al decided on was a little bit crazy to be sure, but it's not all that hard to see why they didn't want to walk into something that was very obviously set up to draw them in.

Besides which, there wouldn't really have been anyone to hit the first night they attacked.

[Moridin]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1310636693' post='2756010']
To be fair it does seem to be more than just one TOP member baying for Polaris's blood, its fairly evident on a variety of different threads
[/quote]

Not sure where you got the idea that Dajobo's comment was in reference to one member of TOP.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Marneus Calgar' timestamp='1310646070' post='2756052']It's been fairly evident for a number of years now. [/quote]Basically some of TOP's members are akin the crazy girl who was jilted and now spends most of her time acting like a psychotic stalker.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Fallen Fool

[Crymson]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1310688505' post='2756313']
Basically TOP's the crazy girl Polar jilted who never quite got over it and as a result now spends most of her time boiling rabbits, making strange late night phone calls and other such psychotic stalker-like behaviors.
[/quote]

And here we yet again see the typical refrain from a Polaris member: complaining about our hostility toward his alliance, because he doesn't want to face the consequences of his alliance's actions. Yes, that's all it is: whining.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Crymson

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310688699' post='2756314']And here we yet again see the typical refrain from a Polaris member: complaining about our hostility toward his alliance, because he doesn't want to face the consequences of his alliance's actions. Yes, that's all it is: whining.[/quote]You're glossing over my analogy.

Does the jilted girl deserved to be upset? Almost certainly and if she has any self-respect she'll make sure the guy who jilted her hears about it. Does that justify a year and a half of obsessively stalking the guy who jilted her so she can wave her version of the bloody shirt and scream until she's hoarse? Well, I certainly don't think so. But like, I'm not you.

So different strokes for different folks I guess. Just don't expect me to not express my annoyance when you break in on a dinner I'm having with my new girlfriend.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Fallen Fool

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1310597505' post='2755672']
Your baiting skills need work.
[/quote]

As demonstrated in this and other threads, you guys are already maximally baited; any fun I have is just gravy.

[Ardus]

This thread went from great to terrible and that it hasn't been locked yet astounds me.

[Believland]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1310688505' post='2756313']
Basically some of TOP's members are akin the crazy girl who was jilted and now spends most of her time acting like a psychotic stalker.
[/quote]
What an awful analogy. In the time between BPW, we've payed off reps and signed a treaty. You just got rolled and quit growing. It's more like you crossed us and now when we look at you, you shrink. When we flex you flinch.

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1310698056' post='2756407']
What an awful analogy. In the time between BPW, we've payed off reps and signed a treaty. You just got rolled and quit growing. It's more like you crossed us and now when we look at you, you shrink. When we flex you flinch.[/quote]I was referring primarily to the OWF conduct of some of your membership. They seem to have taken it upon themselves to follow our membership around screaming about the injustices they've suffered.

Which might, I must admit, be a reaction I'd have if I were in your shoes, at least for a few months after an injustice. Eventually, however, I'd move on and find a more productive use of my time. Some of your members, though, just don't seem like they're able to. Hence the analogy.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Fallen Fool