Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[+Zeke+]

Seriously, just walk out of the talks. When they get tired of war they will make an offer we like. Until then we are just wasting our time with these clowns.

[MikeW]

Disappointing but not surprising.

Edited April 19, 2011 by MikeW

[Mirreille]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1303107254' post='2692484']
We're at least two or three X's removed at this point. They're just plain Hopeless now.
[/quote]

I'm confused. According to MK's DOW, NPO alone was this great big significant threat. In between then and now, several DH officers including you kept yammering about how they had to be taken down now before they rose up and crushed you all(or something). Did they suddenly pass some magic NS threshold where they aren't a threat now?

[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1303108754' post='2692496']
This new Hopeless Coalition party line is hilarious. Like anyone is going to take [b]You[/b] serious about someone else being a lapdog.
[/quote]

Given how often people on both sides of this war have told him to shut up and he obviously isn't listening, I'm not sure how you can consider HOT55 a lapdog.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1303108839' post='2692498']
If your coalition is balking over there mere idea of efficiency clause (the oh so bad change which we are requesting, literally the only thing that needs to be finalized for peace) you obviously have no intention of paying in a timely manner. The efficiency clause should be a non-issue if you intend to pay within a reasonable time frame, as TCK has said you intend to, but your coalition is dragging it out for seemingly no reason other than to balk at something. Perhaps if you hadn't balked but instead actually negotiated with us on it the war would be over by now (for everyone who wanted it to be on your side sans NPO for three weeks).
[/quote]

What happens if they fail to keep up with their payments as set in the efficency clause?

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1303147878' post='2692699']
Seriously? Is this what war has come to? After two months of fighting, folks are sitting in back channels negotiating exactly how much NS needs to come out of PM and for how long in order to achieve peace? Do you think anyone is going to respect you for that? If so, do you really want folks who can defend that as your friends?

Here's a clue.

At the beginning of the war, we had a couple of opponents who didn't really care for us all that much and a few who didn't know or care enough about us to form a real opinion. We threw everything we had into fighting and didn't stop until signatures were on the peace terms.

We ended up with what was essentially a white peace. So did nearly everyone else on the NpO front. The folks who didn't weren't given anything ridiculous for terms. None of us spent the month and a half we were at war in peace mode, nor did we spend it nit picking NS.

I wonder if the peace and the lack of being completely ridiculous correspond with one another.

Really. Fighting and being picky about the amount of NS that needs to be out of PM. It's almost as though you deserve to be smashed a little more.
[/quote]

I would think someone as smart as you would have considered the possibility that you only got white peace BECAUSE the NPO front had developed the way it did. If they had all come out for an easy smashing you would probably be paying reps right now. It made perfect sense for your opponents to end that front ASAP in order to let C&G redeploy, and try to put pressure on the NPO front. Treating you leniently might lessen the fears of the AAs fighting on the NPO front that DH & allies would be harsh with their peace terms too. You're the direct beneficiary of the NPO & allies intransigence, and you are in here cutting on them?

[Monster]

Reps were never on the table for Polar/STA. Amounts never discussed, even.

[Letum]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303171712' post='2692963']
I was wondering but have now confirmed that you are under the impression that a losing party is entitled to something from the victors, you are indeed wrong.
[/quote]

The winning party is not "entitled" to anything from the losers either. You can only take as much as you can force the others to give, and if you fail to get what you want; it is your own lack of power that you must blame, not the other side. Crying "but they won't capitulate already!" just makes you look like an amateur.

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1303174391' post='2692977']Reps were never on the table for Polar/STA. Amounts never discussed, even.[/quote]

Likely because Polaris wasn't the real reason for this war, according to Outhouse. Sure, they brought in partners saying that was the reason, but when Pacifica didn't jump as expected it finally forced their hand. So a reason was ginned up to make Pacifica a threat enough to roll even without a CB. Now that the Polaris side of the war is closed and the war drags on the facade melts away. Everything here is about breaking Pacifican power for good. Whatever was told to those sicced on Polaris it was all a ploy to get Outhouse on Pacifica. Of course there were easy reps on the Polaris side. Otherwise that might delay freeing troops for the real target.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303098340' post='2692344']
So let me see if I remember some minor event a few years ago...

There was some alliance that was chairing peace talks. When one of the alliances declared war during those peace talks, said alliance threw a fit and declared war on an ODP against the side of its MDP partners. You should never declare war during peace talks, they said.

Who was that again?

Oh yeah. $%&@ you and the horse you rode in on TOP.
[/quote]

TOP just declared in the middle of peace talks that have been ongoing for WEEKS not days, and [i]did not start a new war[/i], just intensified pressure in an existing one.

Those are two major differences.

[quote]Likely because Polaris wasn't the real reason for this war, according to Outhouse.[/quote]

No, Polaris' spying was literally the reason the war happened.

[quote]Seriously, just walk out of the talks. When they get tired of war they will make an offer we like. Until then we are just wasting our time with these clowns. [/quote]

That's awfully easy for you to say when it's only your alliance mates getting blown up, not you.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Penkala

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1303175178' post='2692981']
Everything here is about breaking Pacifican power for good.
[/quote]

If we've found out anything, it's that it was broken to begin with.

[Letum]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1303175546' post='2692983']
If we've found out anything, it's that it was broken to begin with.
[/quote]

Does that mean you'll finally leave us alone after this?

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1303175490' post='2692982']No, Polaris' spying was literally the reason the war happened.[/quote]

Another manufactured event. If you really believe all this has been about Polaris then I recommend putting down the koolaide that Outhouse served you.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1303175734' post='2692985']
Does that mean you'll finally leave us alone after this?
[/quote]

But then who would you blame all of your problems on?

If you can't pin it on the big mean Karma/Pandora's Box/MK/FAN/whoever, then maybe *gasp* you'll have to confront your own ineptitude. Or you could just wallow in it like your esteemed allies. It's up to you but making martyrs of yourselves might be the best hope your relic of an alliance has.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1303145330' post='2692680']
IF IRON would have come in to the war you may have had a point but they didnt, neither did any other DR signatory. Please read that document as well, as you will find no clause what so ever that obligates any signatory to fight for the other. Not only that but your talking about minimum one chain removed AA where MK is directly tied to TOP so once again your argument holds little water. TOP has been more than considerate in the handling of this war to all allies so those who say they are with out honor are way off.
[/quote]
From my understanding IRON and others in Duckroll didn't enter due to MK being allied to TOP, so in order to show respect for TOP they stayed out. MK and their allies (including TOP) haven't shown any hesisitation to throw IRON's allies under the bus and making sure most of those who would be would on IRON's side should a war come are all beaten down badly, with IRON's relationship to TOP keeping IRON from getting involved on the other side as TOP does everything MK wants in hopes of winning their respect, when in reality MK will still see TOP as nothing more than an expendable meat shield that is only useful as long as they do as MK wants. When TOP stops being willing to declare on everyone MK wants them to, then they'll lose their usefulness as MK has laughs over how many alliances who were more likely to align with TOP than MK they managed convince TOP to roll for them.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Methrage

[Penkala]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1303175922' post='2692986']
Another manufactured event. If you really believe all this has been about Polaris then I recommend putting down the koolaide that Outhouse served you.
[/quote]

You realize that VE fired the opening salvo in this war, right? Not Doomhouse?

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1303177052' post='2692997']
You realize that VE fired the opening salvo in this war, right? Not Doomhouse?
[/quote]

Under our orders, obviously. Any claim to the contrary is a dumbhouse ruse.

[Letum]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1303175978' post='2692988']
But then who would you blame all of your problems on?

If you can't pin it on the big mean Karma/Pandora's Box/MK/FAN/whoever, then maybe *gasp* you'll have to confront your own ineptitude. Or you could just wallow in it like your esteemed allies. It's up to you but making martyrs of yourselves might be the best hope your relic of an alliance has.
[/quote]

Are you serious?

Well, let's see who we can blame. We can start attacking any deserter nation as an example of unpacificanism, we can reinforce internal discipline by inventing traitors or idiots to get rid of in an internal purge, we can go after micro-alliances that have no friends and we are certain to win against, belittle neutrals and fence-sitters, cultivate anti-imperialist sentiment against some "hegemon" we can blame for all of the world's ills, increase the emphasis on a mass ideology that demands total obedience, creating complex theoretical arguments to discredit anyone who might disagree, we can (fairly unlikely) use unaligneds for target practice, we can dig out the various ethnic minorities in the Pacifican state, and highlight the un-Francoist and counter-revolutionary aspects of their culture, going on a crusade to stamp it out, we can activate our stargates and launch invasions of other worlds - really, the fact that you are even [i]asking[/i] this question shows how much of an amateur noob you really are.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Letum

[Khyber]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1303176799' post='2692995']
From my understanding IRON and others in Duckroll didn't enter due to MK being allied to TOP, so in order to show respect for TOP they stayed out. MK and their allies (including TOP) haven't shown any hesisitation to throw IRON's allies under the bus and making sure most of those who would be would on IRON's side should a war come are all beaten down badly, with IRON's relationship to TOP keeping IRON from getting involved on the other side as TOP does everything MK wants in hopes of winning their respect, when in reality MK will still see TOP as nothing more than an expendable meat shield that is only useful as long as they do as MK wants. When TOP stops being willing to declare on everyone MK wants them to, then they'll lose their usefulness as MK has laughs over how many alliances who were more likely to align with TOP than MK they managed convince TOP to roll for them.
[/quote]

Meth man, I love you, and Citadel never had a better king, but your understanding is completely off the mark. Talk to someone up in any of the DR alliances and get your facts straightened out, cause this is just silly talk.

For the record, DR had no intention of entering the war, except for ML. You think Valhalla, BAPS and TORN who are not allied to TOP would not have joined the war if they wanted to? How in the world did you come to that understanding you posted above?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Khyber' timestamp='1303177195' post='2693001']
Meth man, I love you, and Citadel never had a better king, but your understanding is completely off the mark. Talk to someone up in any of the DR alliances and get your facts straightened out, cause this is just silly talk.

For the record, DR had no intention of entering the war, except for ML. You think Valhalla, BAPS and TORN who are not allied to TOP would not have joined the war if they wanted to? How in the world did you come to that understanding you posted above?
[/quote]
Without IRON I don't think they would of entered even if they wanted to, most would of wanted to have it agreed upon that all enter if they were going to do so. ML entered anyways even though they didn't have the rest of DR behind them and knew it was a losing war, for that they have my respect.

Edit: Also speaking off the record, I've spoken with some of the regular members from IRON who have expressed support for my war and wishing they could help. Obviously with you guys having now allied MK, the ones who extracted so many reps out of both TOP and IRON, as well as keeping DAWN and TORN at war for a long time stacking as many alliances as possible to fight you guys for them, their hands were tied when you guys chose to ally MK and abandon everyone who fought on the same side as you guys in the last war. I'm not sure you guys realize how disappointed you guys have made many who held TOP in such high regards after the last war, they would of fought to ZI, then build back up only to keep fighting longer if it was alongside you guys had you not switched sides so suddenly.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Methrage

[Flonker]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1303099585' post='2692387']
Starting a completely new war during the middle of negotiations to keep a war from happening is totally the same as one alliance joining a front on a war already in progress. Totally.
[/quote]

I'm totally not getting what war you're tryin to keep from happening, unless it's the MK-NPO war...

[Letum]

[quote name='Khyber' timestamp='1303177195' post='2693001']
For the record, DR had no intention of entering the war, except for ML. You think Valhalla, BAPS and TORN who are not allied to TOP would not have joined the war if they wanted to? How in the world did you come to that understanding you posted above?
[/quote]

You don't need to intend to enter the war in order for someone to pre-empt you from doing so.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303160142' post='2692835']
No. If you read what I wrote, I said that the delay, associated with their rejection, is on them. That is to say, it is their fault that it occurred and they don't get to cry about the delay and accuse us of not attempting to achieve peace when peace was offered. I did not do anything in the way of dismissing that my side may have taken longer to get back to them but, in fact, attributed that delay to their initial rejection. The claim that we took too long to get back is ludicrous in and of itself as it is up to us when we offer you terms, not them.

On a further note, your desperation in attempting to cast my words as somehow being "contradictory" is hilarious.

^- Made my day.
[/quote]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303156691' post='2692801']
Oh, I do. Which is why I fully support my side's pursuit of peace. [i]The delay in these negotiations due to foot dragging [b]by the opposition[/b] over the specifics of terms[/i] is most lamentable given that millions die each day so someone can determine the details over how much NS will be engaged in the inevitable release of the PM warriors.
[/quote]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303157576' post='2692809']
Probably shouldn't have rejected the original offer then. The blood of millions is on [i]your[/i] hands. I thnk its spectacular how your side has convinced itself that it is our fault for the delays associated with the conclusion of this war.
[/quote]


Yup, that is contradictory. You first claimed it was their fault because [b]they[/b] were the ones who were dragging their feet. Then when HoT called you out on it, you switched your story stating that it was now their fault for [b]your[/b] side dragging it's feet. See, I never made any claims as to who was at fault. I said you contradicted yourself by making the claim that NPO's side was dragging its feet and then switching stories when called out on it.

And yes, the fact that you are attempting to blame NPO's side for your side dragging its feet is dismissal. You are refusing to have your side take responsibility for their own actions and are instead blaming others for [b]your[/b] actions. That is dismissal.

The sheer desperation of your post clamoring for any way to refute mine is amusing. Taking a week or longer to get back to them is taking too damn long. I swear, ya'll trying to do far worse than NPO now. If NPO had taken a week or longer to get back to their opponents with terms during each and every negotiation attempt, I guarantee we would have seen MK crying their little baby eyes out over it.

Also, what desperation of mine? Seriously, your two posts completely contradicted one another. There was no desperation on my part, hell I had not even read this thread before like page 18 or some such. I happened upon your first post claiming [b]NPO's side was dragging their feet[/b], then HoT's post calling you out for sheer ignorance and stupidity, then your reply to HoT where you claimed it was now NPO's fault that [b]your side was dragging their feet[/b]. The contradiction is quite obvious, in your face, and easy to see for anyone with a shred of intellect to call their own. I don't care who was at fault since ya'll dragging your feet is still ya'll dragging your feet. It is your responsibility (hey, you don't want that responsibility then fire Ardus for making that wonderful thread where he claimed ya'll would work on a better world free of tyranny, what you are doing is tyrannical and an abuse of power) to get back to NPO's side far quicker, not their responsibility to somehow force your to go quicker. Your slowness is only your fault.

Now to see Tamerlane and others cry their eyes out over my words.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1303176799' post='2692995']
From my understanding IRON and others in Duckroll didn't enter due to MK being allied to TOP, so in order to show respect for TOP they stayed out. MK and their allies (including TOP) haven't shown any hesisitation to throw IRON's allies under the bus and making sure most of those who would be would on IRON's side should a war come are all beaten down badly, with IRON's relationship to TOP keeping IRON from getting involved on the other side as TOP does everything MK wants in hopes of winning their respect, when in reality MK will still see TOP as nothing more than an expendable meat shield that is only useful as long as they do as MK wants. When TOP stops being willing to declare on everyone MK wants them to, then they'll lose their usefulness as MK has laughs over how many alliances who were more likely to align with TOP than MK they managed convince TOP to roll for them.
[/quote]


Seriously are you high?

If there is one consistent item throughout this war, and tbh for a number of MONTHS prior to the war, its that Duckroll has been upfront about our reasons for sitting this one out. Those reasons do not include any iota of reasoning from your post on what you 'understand' and everything to do with our Duckrollian mutual distaste or downright dislike of the Orders prior to the war.


Please continue on your hate or w/e it is you got going of TOP and MK if ya like, but leave us ducks out of it.....QUACK!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1303163174' post='2692863']
To prevent us rendering Polaris assistance in their own fight.
[/quote]

I thought it was to end the rise of NPO to tyrannical power? Or because NPO was a mega-gigantically-huge-titanic of a threat to not only all of DH but the rest of us in CN? Or because NPO is using the PM strategy? dammit, now I am as confused as Tamerlane is over who is actually dragging their feet in the peace talks....

[+Zeke+]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1303177052' post='2692997']You realize that VE fired the opening salvo in this war, right? Not Doomhouse?[/quote]

If you mean as in being told by Outhouse to gin up something so you could roll on Polaris, then sure.........

[flak attack]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1303175178' post='2692981']
Likely because Polaris wasn't the real reason for this war, according to Outhouse. Sure, they brought in partners saying that was the reason, but when Pacifica didn't jump as expected it finally forced their hand. So a reason was ginned up to make Pacifica a threat enough to roll even without a CB. Now that the Polaris side of the war is closed and the war drags on the facade melts away. Everything here is about breaking Pacifican power for good. Whatever was told to those sicced on Polaris it was all a ploy to get Outhouse on Pacifica. Of course there were easy reps on the Polaris side. Otherwise that might delay freeing troops for the real target.
[/quote]
[citation needed]


[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1303177162' post='2693000']
Are you serious?

Well, let's see who we can blame. We can start attacking any deserter nation as an example of unpacificanism, we can reinforce internal discipline by inventing traitors or idiots to get rid of in an internal purge, we can go after micro-alliances that have no friends and we are certain to win against, belittle neutrals and fence-sitters, cultivate anti-imperialist sentiment against some "hegemon" we can blame for all of the world's ills, increase the emphasis on a mass ideology that demands total obedience, creating complex theoretical arguments to discredit anyone who might disagree, we can (fairly unlikely) use unaligneds for target practice, we can dig out the various ethnic minorities in the Pacifican state, and highlight the un-Francoist and counter-revolutionary aspects of their culture, going on a crusade to stamp it out, we can activate our stargates and launch invasions of other worlds - really, the fact that you are even [i]asking[/i] this question shows how much of an amateur noob you really are.
[/quote]
If you really want to figure out where to start finding people to blame, I would suggest the IOs, but I know you probably have your head too far up their ass to get a decent view of what's really going on.

[mythicknight]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1303178351' post='2693011']
Seriously are you high?
[/quote]

If he is I want some of that stuff