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[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1303151760' post='2692748']
PR isn't as important to an insular group as it is to one that relies on the outside world for it's various gains.
[/quote]
Is it your goal to be flat out wrong about everything you say? Does your alliance really make zero effort to educate you on even the most basic premises of politics?

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1303151982' post='2692752']
Is it your goal to be flat out wrong about everything you say? Does your alliance really make zero effort to educate you on even the most basic premises of politics?
[/quote]

[s]Tell me why as a member of GOONS I should worry about PR when the community already hates GOONS due to its previous incarnation and likely always will because GOONS provides an excellent boogey-man.

Edge of my seat here.[/s]

Edited by speakerwire
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[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1303152259' post='2692754']
Tell me why as a member of GOONS I should worry about PR when the community already hates GOONS due to its previous incarnation and likely always will because GOONS provides an excellent boogey-man.

Edge of my seat here.
[/quote]
Please stop. It's not as black and white as that.

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[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1303152259' post='2692754']
Tell me why as a member of GOONS I should worry about PR when the community already hates GOONS due to its previous incarnation and likely always will because GOONS provides an excellent boogey-man.

Edge of my seat here.
[/quote]
Because they don't entirely hate you. The growing hatred is precisely because of your recent actions, not at all because of your previous namesake (an alliance which - get this - I was a pretty big fan of back in the day).

The further you drag yourselves through the mud, the more people who are going to finally up and say that they've had enough of your antics.

And DH/PB cannot survive without their peripheral alliances and blocs. Your two blocs make up a mere 6 alliances, you heavily rely on the support of others.

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[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1303149905' post='2692722']
i won't pretend to know any intimate details, so i'll go with what you're saying. if that's the case, then make it official, get it all signed, and publish it for all to see. TOP's DOW has no impact on your ability to make these peace terms official. TOP is only currently in 7 wars. yes, 7.
[/quote]
You haven't seen the peace terms. Believe me, if you read them, you'd understand that TOP would be very likely in far more than 7 wars the day after they were made official.

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Let me clear up a few things now that everyone has blown their wad of angst and anger (including myself).

As I have not been able to get in contact with TCK, I was and remain unfamiliar with any re-write of the efficiency clause prior to talking with Ardus (however he (Ardus) did provide a general concept of itto me last night). Prior to that I commented directly to Sardonic I see the efficiency clause dead in the water as everyone agrees its complete bs. It has nothing to do with not wanting to pay the reps, it comes from being concerned of being cornered and being extorted, a regular occurring theme. This immediately builds the distrust which was already high considering the absolute dogma used as an excuse to create this war. If you don't see that either because you don't have to you don't want to, its rather moot either way and as such you can leave the thread now.

Stating there is nothing wrong with this action is in some area's correct. TOP as a treaty partner to MK has to honor its treaties. The only issue I have is this; During peace we (those involved in the talks) talked about not escalating or bringing in new parties, during this same time MK requested TOP to come in to help. Additionally Ardus specifically told me last night there were slots that needed to be filled and TOP filled them. As we talked about non escalation etc, Ardus (or MK as a whole) should have made a clarification so there were no surprises which could/would hinder our agreements. Considering TOP was already fighting NADC certainly you can say "but we didn't" however that doesn't change the perception created and continues with the Everything Must Die crap that was the call to kick this war off. Your right 6 wars in the scheme of all of this is almost nothing. Its the visual act and disrespect for the parties talking (and generally there has been good respect in our meetings). This is important because that tone was NOT the attitude in the talks and is a far cry from the attitude we were dealing with one another. For us to see it as a slap to the face is NOT a stretch in any way shape or form. I have to ask why put a DOW at all? Why not just hit those targets since you were "already at war". This was and remains a PR stunt (or appears to be one) to show the victor can do what its wants. If it was pulled by our side I can promise the cries in this thread would be reversed completely. Dogma is what dogma is.

A point of clarification: To say my side in this (NPO, TPF and the whole gang) has delayed talks is an absolute and complete lie. At each meeting we have come prepared and have offered reasonable counters. Indeed our side made the largest leap in an effort to end this. Each time we have waited over a week (typically 10-14 days) before Doomhouse et al came back. So slow your role there and get educated. As for the NPO BR, you will find they have been updated at every level. That doesn't stop someone from being uninformed, which is the blaring case on both sides when we look at the average post from regular members. :rolls eyes:

Regardless of any of this mouth vomit exploding on the owf, 99% of you will not even be involved in the talks etc, so by all means take this chance to run your mouths and continue to prove the general worthlessness of the owf.

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303152628' post='2692760']
You haven't seen the peace terms. Believe me, if you read them, you'd understand that TOP would be very likely in far more than 7 wars the day after they were made official.
[/quote]i have some level of understanding regarding the terms. either way, what does that have to do with this? TOP's current DOW has resulted in a total of 7 wars. claiming this entirely changes the situation is overreacting.

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303152628' post='2692760']
You haven't seen the peace terms. Believe me, if you read them, you'd understand that TOP would be very likely in far more than 7 wars the day after they were made official.
[/quote]

they would also not be able to declare once the terms were set.

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[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303153044' post='2692768']
I wasn't aware that playing to win had become such a faux pas... :wacko:
[/quote]

Hey, I never said it was a faux pas when [i]we[/i] were doing it. I'm only opposed to it when it's the other side that does it.

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[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1303153885' post='2692774']
Can we expect a long term radio silence from the New Pacific Order in the near future. My hope is yes.
[/quote]

You first bud :)

No, there is no need for radio silence from the NPO. We have been quiet enough. Generally we know we aren't wanted here, but its all good.

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[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1303151760' post='2692748']
PR isn't as important to an insular group as it is to one that relies on the outside world for it's various gains.[/quote]

Insular group...like say the Unjust Path? They were an insular group too. By ignoring what others thought of them, they were very successful in the Unjust War.










/irony

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[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1303154259' post='2692777']
You first bud :)

No, there is no need for radio silence from the NPO. We have been quiet enough. Generally we know we aren't wanted here, but its all good.
[/quote]

You know I'm an officer and a gentlemen and always let the ladies go first. By all means I'll get the door for you on the way out though.

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[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1303153013' post='2692767']
i have some level of understanding regarding the terms. either way, what does that have to do with this? TOP's current DOW has resulted in a total of 7 wars. claiming this entirely changes the situation is overreacting.
[/quote]
I'm not going to go into the details of the peace terms.

Going to the OWF when peace talks don't go your way right away is your side's MO, not ours.

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[quote name='feardaram' timestamp='1303153013' post='2692767']
i have some level of understanding regarding the terms. either way, what does that have to do with this? TOP's current DOW has resulted in a total of 7 wars. claiming this entirely changes the situation is overreacting.
[/quote]
It's been explained countless times already, but I can see you're just going to repeat the same exact line over and over again as if you haven't gotten an answer.

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[quote name='speakerwire' timestamp='1303151760' post='2692748']
PR isn't as important to an insular group as it is to one that relies on the outside world for it's various gains.
[/quote]
Actually, your insular group certainly does not hold global dominance without the various peripheral factions. Never has there been an "insular group" powerful enough to hold dominant power by itself, because it is difficult (if not impossible) to have an insular group large enough to dominate a planet of this size. PR certainly does have an effect, because your bloc (like NPO and its inner circle pre-Karma) relies on a wide array of direct and indirect allies. Should the peripheral factions defect, as happened to NPO in the lead-up to Karma, a hegemonic group cannot maintain power. This is true of any group that holds hegemonic or near-hegemonic power.

-Bama

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[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1303153044' post='2692768']
I wasn't aware that playing to win had become such a faux pas... :wacko:
[/quote]
What do you mean "playing to win?" Is this some sort of a [i]game[/i] to you? Do you not care about the [i]billions[/i] of lives being lost in this needless conflict?

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[quote name='Cager' timestamp='1303155050' post='2692780']
You know I'm an officer and a gentlemen and always let the ladies go first. By all means I'll get the door for you on the way out though.
[/quote]

Okay I lol'd :)

I figure as an officer and a gentleman you will let us Old Guys go first as well.

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[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1303155479' post='2692784']
Going to the OWF when peace talks don't go your way right away is your side's MO, not ours.
[/quote]

Are you intentionally ignoring everyone who has been screaming about the peace terms for the last month?

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[quote name='SADeki' timestamp='1303155984' post='2692790']
Are you intentionally ignoring everyone who has been screaming about the peace terms for the last month?
[/quote]
Because it totally wasn't Ardus of the MK who posted that 200+ page monster of a thread to whine about peace terms the instant we refused your initial demands.

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