Micro-Peace

[Electron Sponge]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299123687' post='2650609']
Yes, I realize that if everyone typed how you would like them to, there would certainly be a lot less deflections on the forums; however, I simply refuse to use proper punctuation and grammar simply to irritate the likes of you.

now that i have that out of the way, ve without fok would simply be curbstomped. i accept that ve needed fok's help to crush us. congrats on your curbstomp ve (and fok). would you like a medal for needing a military power like fok to kill your enemy? (id honestly love to 1v1 ve sometime to shut them up)
[/quote]
Wait what, who got crushed?

Sorry bro, not sure if you are aware, but we aren't anywhere near defeated. VE knows that (dontcha, guys?).

I appreciate your adherence to our common cause, but before speaking out in this particular arena it might be best to check with the ones who make decisions.

[Reptyler]

Honestly, I think the reps are a bit high. If we knew for sure that this war was going to be over soon, and Polar would be willing and able to foot the bill, then perhaps; but I'm not sold on the idea that Polar has any intention of surrendering in the near future.

That said, KoH and Misfits are perfectly capable of doing their own negotiating, and I don't think it's my right to tell them what to do. If what I've been told is true, then KoH is happy with these reps. No one forced them to come to any agreement. They consented to that themselves.

As for the argument that losing the war is punishment enough, you've got to look at it from the winner's point of view. They had to waste their precious stats to put you in your place - winning a war takes a pretty big toll on your NS, as well (personally I dropped 7k infra from the scant handful of polars that were in my range). You damn well better believe that they're going to convince you not to do that again. The losers may see it as adding insult to injury, but to the victors, it's a little padding to the hurt they had to take in addition to convincing the opponent not to try that again any time soon.

That was all a little bit abstract, and I'm not sure how applicable it is to the topic at hand, but I agree with Ardus in most of his analysis of this batch of whiners. Reps happen. Sorry guys. And if you're expecting to get off easy for taking your licks at GOONS? Try again.
[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1299086961' post='2649712']
The amount of whining in this thread over the reps is ridiculous. I look forward to seeing people's reactions when alliances start surrendering to us.
[/quote]
[i]"And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions."[/i]

[Penguin]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1299124741' post='2650655']
As for the argument that losing the war is punishment enough, you've got to look at it from the winner's point of view. They had to waste their precious stats to put you in your place - winning a war takes a pretty big toll on your NS, as well (personally I dropped 7k infra from the scant handful of polars that were in my range). You damn well better believe that they're going to convince you not to do that again. The losers may see it as adding insult to injury, but to the victors, it's a little padding to the hurt they had to take in addition to convincing the opponent not to try that again any time soon.[/quote]
Historically speaking, I don't think demanding reps usually has the effect you think it does. Most reparations amount to only a small fraction of the damage done to both the attacker and defender. The only way you're going to get a bigger deterrent from reps than actual war damage is if you make reps unreasonably large or if the defender takes peace terms unusually early. As is these terms represent probably 2% of the damages caused; not a very significant deterrent. Besides, you can't really deter someone from being attacked to begin with. In general, I think they're more likely to be seen as a slap in the face and foster longer term resentment than they are actually worth, which is why I steer clear of them. Of course, for some that is the goal to begin with.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Penguin

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Electron Sponge' timestamp='1299124532' post='2650649']
Wait what, who got crushed?

Sorry bro, not sure if you are aware, but we aren't anywhere near defeated. VE knows that (dontcha, guys?).

I appreciate your adherence to our common cause, but before speaking out in this particular arena it might be best to check with the ones who make decisions.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]Delusional much?[/color]

[Reptyler]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1299126107' post='2650712']
[color="#FF0000"]Delusional much?[/color]
[/quote]
Only as delusional as FAN thinking they could beat NPO.

[Omniscient1]

Congrats to my friends in KoH on achieving peace. I honestly didn't think CB would like to play a part in extortion, but it is what it is I guess.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1299126107' post='2650712']
[color="#FF0000"]Delusional much?[/color]
[/quote]

Far from being delusional, Comrade Sponge is a light in a dark dark world. You on the other hand may well be delusional, there is sufficient evidence within these walls to suggest so.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1299105073' post='2649956']
The price goes up already just by being in the war longer, taking more damage, using up more warchests, and postponing rebuilding periods. There's really no need to add insult to injury.
[/quote]
Except the price is going up for the victors too. Again, the incentive is to drag out the war to do as much damage to the winning side as possible. The point of increasing reps is to discourage that.
[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299107413' post='2649987']
"you guys were an honorable alliance, therefore we must punish you for your honor. next time be dishonorable." i seem to be getting that from you guys.
[/quote]
It's not that, even if that might be the effect. It's either you reward dragging out conflicts by decreasing terms or keeping them level as the war goes on, or you reward ending conflicts quickly by increasing terms as time goes on. Yes, one unintended side effect is that the people that are more worried about their pixels rather than their friends are rewarded by leaving early, but so long as they keep that attitude they aren't much of a threat. And the onus is on their treaty partners for enforcing their own consequences by cutting those ties.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299123325' post='2650596']
well yes. im assuming ve is fighting to preserve their honor. i suppose you could throw in revenge and such. but i digress. i asked you what the point to war was. i suppose its easy to mistake my question for me asking for a deflection from you.
[/quote]

I can't speak for anyone else, but from my point of view the war is negative reinforcement for Polar. They did something bad, and now like a poorly trained dog their nose must be rubbed in it to drive the point home.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Reptyler' timestamp='1299126993' post='2650743']
Only as delusional as FAN thinking they could beat NPO.
[/quote]
FAN: 3
WUT: 0
Q: 0
NPO: 0

[Penguin]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1299131890' post='2650865']
Except the price is going up for the victors too. Again, the incentive is to drag out the war to do as much damage to the winning side as possible. The point of increasing reps is to discourage that.[/quote]
Except you volunteered to pay that price when you attacked. The goal of the war for the losing side is almost always to reach peace with acceptable terms reasonably quickly, not to drag it out. Doing damage to the people standing between an alliance, their allies and peace is only a means to that end. If you're going to talk about incentives, remember that if we weren't doing any damage then [i]you[/i] would have no incentive to give us any reasonable peace terms at all.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Penguin

[erikz]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299103369' post='2649936']
You sir have put your money where your mouth is and have earned some respect for it.*

The rest of the whiners have not.

[size="1"]*Assuming you follow through, talk after all is not aid slots [/size]
[/quote]

I will be paying these reps if Misfits, KoH and me can come to some sort of agreement about how to pay it (directly, indirect) and if Misfits allows me to pay it for KoH etc. etc. Negotiation is a bit hard because we're in different time zones

Still, yes, I will put my money where my mouth is, but that has noting to do with this situation. I'm trying to make a great misdoing right again.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1299131498' post='2650856']
Far from being delusional, Comrade Sponge is a light in a dark dark world. You on the other hand may well be delusional, there is sufficient evidence within these walls to suggest so.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]It looks quite different from all the way up here where me and my friends are sitting. [/color]

[Bergerland]

31 aid slots of reparations after two offers of white peace is hardly harsh.

Also, on the nature and purpose of reparations: I don't think they're necessarily to repair the damage done but to help aid your own alliance's rebuilding, if by a bit, and make your opponent's rebuilding slower, if by a bit. It might not be a ton of difference(excluding reparations at the center of a conflict as those usually have, in the past, made a fair bit of difference), but could easily make a difference and give your own alliance an advantage. As well, with as many nations Misfits have in the lower NS ranges I'm sure that the cash reps will help.

Congrats on the peace Misfits and I hope KoH enjoys the peace as well as the seem like pretty chill folks.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Bergerland

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1299041166' post='2649219']
/me double checks the NPO terms from Karma....

Yea sure, 75 mil is steep. We'll go with that.
[/quote]

Check their DoW while you're at it. Find some similarities.

[Beauty]

Reps are immoral. Put this in your sig if your down.

[Callebaut]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1299124430' post='2650644']


Are you trying to be funny...because you are failing. Just stop arguing about the stupid CB. You know our side and we know your side. Stop bringing it up because the majority don't want to argue over it for another time.
[/quote]

Eh, mostly just trolling for the sake of trolling. I'm not a big OWF guy, so a lot of what I do here as far as political discourse goes is for my own entertainment. You could also say that you know our stance and reasons for reps, and we know your reasons for disliking them. From that, I would infer (and my own feelings would confirm) that it's not worth arguing over. If anyone wants a full and honest discussion of our rationale, they'd contact a government member on IRC or sign up for an embassy on our forums. Posting here is mostly for laughs, as far as I can tell.

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1299136875' post='2650948']
I will be paying these reps if Misfits, KoH and me can come to some sort of agreement about how to pay it (directly, indirect) and if Misfits allows me to pay it for KoH etc. etc. Negotiation is a bit hard because we're in different time zones

Still, yes, I will put my money where my mouth is, but that has noting to do with this situation. I'm trying to make a great misdoing right again.
[/quote]

We've been pretty busy drafting up lists of reparations targets and dealing with Polar's recent rush at us (and of course events beyond the scope of Planet Bob), but hopefully myself or another Misfits government member will have some time to get back to you soon (hopefully tomorrow).

[erikz]

[quote name='Callebaut' timestamp='1299143103' post='2651005']
We've been pretty busy drafting up lists of reparations targets and dealing with Polar's recent rush at us (and of course events beyond the scope of Planet Bob), but hopefully myself or another Misfits government member will have some time to get back to you soon (hopefully tomorrow).
[/quote]

Good, Ill be awaiting your response

[Dom Zak]

[quote name='Opensource' timestamp='1299045048' post='2649314']
Why am I not surprised by the demanding of terms.

You'd think VE, being in PB, would respect the fighting spirit of such a small alliance.
[/quote]

Except for the part where VE didn't make the reps, MN did? :S

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Dom Zak' timestamp='1299151891' post='2651044']
Except for the part where VE didn't make the reps, MN did? :S
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that was pointed out, perhaps on pages 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6.

Best of luck with the rebuilding, KoH.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1299134210' post='2650919']
Except you volunteered to pay that price when you attacked. The goal of the war for the losing side is almost always to reach peace with acceptable terms reasonably quickly, not to drag it out. Doing damage to the people standing between an alliance, their allies and peace is only a means to that end. If you're going to talk about incentives, remember that if we weren't doing any damage then [i]you[/i] would have no incentive to give us any reasonable peace terms at all.
[/quote]
A good point, but I think BiPolar showed we can be generous given the right circumstances. And what is your definition of reasonably quickly? This war has lasted for about a month and a half now.

[Penguin]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1299181563' post='2651371']
A good point, but I think BiPolar showed we can be generous given the right circumstances. And what is your definition of reasonably quickly? This war has lasted for about a month and a half now.
[/quote]
Agreed, this is a pretty long war considering how few of our side's nations have been in peace mode. We have obviously failed to force you to give us peace on a timescale I would call "reasonably quickly". It's almost entirely because you haven't convinced your coalition to offer them than because we haven't been willing to accept them. That the war dragged on this long has also been your choice in so far as you can be held responsible for the choices of your own coalition.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1299188671' post='2651503']
Agreed, this is a pretty long war considering how few of our side's nations have been in peace mode. We have obviously failed to force you to give us peace on a timescale I would call "reasonably quickly". It's almost entirely because you haven't convinced your coalition to offer them than because we haven't been willing to accept them. That the war dragged on this long has also been your choice in so far as you can be held responsible for the choices of your own coalition.
[/quote]
True, but generally, especially early on, white peace was offered to those not involved in the thick of the fighting, this particular front included. I can't speculate on what exactly is holding things up elsewhere, though.

[Penguin]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1299208405' post='2651873']
True, but generally, especially early on, white peace was offered to those not involved in the thick of the fighting, this particular front included. I can't speculate on what exactly is holding things up elsewhere, though.
[/quote]
Like I said earlier, if you present a case for treating war and peace terms based more on incentives than a sense of right and wrong it becomes the only way to deal with you. Most alliances are reluctant to peace out against that foe because they have no reason to think the friends and allies they leave behind are going to be treated well once the pressure, however small, is off. From your previous statements that the price of war ought to go up for the most persistent alliances, I have every reason to believe that things would be much worse for those of us not so lucky to get early white peace had more allies accepted your offers earlier in the war. If you want to make wars shorter you shouldn't be saying "Accept these terms now so I can make the allies you leave behind pay a higher price for peace."

Edited March 4, 2011 by Penguin

[lonewolfe2015]

So does this set us up for the standard of white peace after a week's worth of fighting or else you're paying reps?