Micro-Peace

[Ardus]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1299097951' post='2649863']
Just for clarification, who is "our"? MK or VE or both?[/quote]

I'm referring to... *waves at nondescript crowd of mixed origin*

...us.


[quote]Oh, it makes sense from a game theory perspective, I just never pictured some of you as the type. If you can scare off half a coalition early in the war by holding heavy terms over their heads then you can divide and conquer. I don't particularly like this strategy, but you're certainly not the first to do it. I can't even count the number of alliances throughout history who were scared into abandoning their allies early precisely because of this precedent. It must work.[/quote]

I moonlight as an economist.

[quote]That's a silly way of twisting it. No one thinks two offers of white peace are "wrong" while three offers of white peace are "noble". The first two were "good" and the third offer of white peace would have been "good" as well. You could offer an alliance white peace 100 times in the first week of war if you were persistent enough, that wouldn't make the 101st offer of a million tech any better (obviously not the case here but we're talking in general now). No, I don't believe the fact that you once offered white peace means that you are then free to offer unreasonable terms at your leisure without criticism.
[/quote]

Were we dealing with a case of a million tech, I would agree with you without a doubt. However that is not the set of facts before us. What is the case is a set of three-week terms that won't impact KoH until well after I've driven away all those I love on April 1st. Such is hardly a jump from white peace to total debilitation as you imply. It's not even a jump from white peace to "tough", even considering KoH's small stature. Given Nueva Vida has already pledged some $60 million, Hyrule needs only a modicum of further assistance and it will have received more outside assistance than it is required to pay Misfit Nations.

Ultimately however the criticism in this thread is not about the size of the reps, but their presence at all, which circles back around to our "Bell Curve o' Peace Pressure" from earlier. Reparations of some sort are justified here and Misfit Nations are not somehow in the wrong because they were unwilling to extend absolute mercy indefinitely. KoH doesn't get to dictate when and how it leaves given its defeat. That said, KoH fought honorably and received what I believe to be fair terms that reflect that.

[foxfire99]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299112315' post='2650132']
mn declared war on us and koh declared war on them. what other wars was mn in during this conflict? (i know ive asked this before but got no response) keep in mind we were hardly targeting them before this.
[/quote]

I know firsthand you Polars aren't big on fighting back, but you still count as a war.

[ones]

[quote name='caleb ryals' timestamp='1299108026' post='2650000']
just an FYI, erik surrendered due to some RL problems that kept him from being active enough to fight.
[/quote]

I know that, yet a PoW regardless of reason, should not have a real say in this matter, that was the point i was trying to make.

[Kochers]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299112701' post='2650145']
No one, we admit that. However its still 2v1(2 alliances vs 1 alliance) until VE came in...it is not our fault that when we fight with our Protectors they actually help us out and [b]when KoH came in to fight with their protector Polar "hardly targets" the nations fighting their protectorate.[/b]
KoH being outnumbered with VE in the war was more due to Polar playing with the treaty web to leave VE pretty clear and Polar not helping take out more of their Protectorate targets, so please stop blaming Misfits for taking advantage of your lack of support directed to KoH.
[/quote]
This post broke my moron meter, just fyi.

Polar was being attacked by VE, iFOK and PC. They already had their hands full. The idea that Polar was somehow a negligent as a protector by not assisting KoH further is ignorant at best.

Another fyi: I'm not a Polar-loving blue team alliance gov who thinks back on the glorious days of BLEU. But when stupidity such as his exists, I feel it should be corrected.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299112701' post='2650145']
No one, we admit that. However its still 2v1(2 alliances vs 1 alliance) until VE came in...it is not our fault that when we fight with our Protectors they actually help us out and when KoH came in to fight with their protector Polar "hardly targets" the nations fighting their protectorate.
KoH being outnumbered with VE in the war was more due to Polar playing with the treaty web to leave VE pretty clear and Polar not helping take out more of their Protectorate targets, so please stop blaming Misfits for taking advantage of your lack of support directed to KoH.
[/quote]

with 6 alliances attacking us, we must prioritize our attacks. koh was doing a very nice job fighting mn by themselves. i dont see why they would have needed our support until ve came in. when ve came in to fight koh, there was little we could do to support them other than attack ve, which we have been doing anyways. you are being intentionally obtuse about this arent you?

[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1299113863' post='2650178']
I know firsthand you Polars aren't big on fighting back, but you still count as a war.
[/quote]

check the warfare. we are fighting back hard. (i know i sent out more nukes than i took, thats for sure.)

[William Blake]

[quote name='Kochers' timestamp='1299113952' post='2650186']
This post broke my moron meter, just fyi.

Polar was being attacked by VE, iFOK and PC. They already had their hands full. The idea that Polar was somehow a negligent as a protector by not assisting KoH further is ignorant at best.
[/quote]
And FOK, don't forget them, they are doing plenty of damage too.

[Frodark]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299114068' post='2650189']
with 6 alliances attacking us, we must prioritize our attacks. koh was doing a very nice job fighting mn by themselves. i dont see why they would have needed our support until ve came in. when ve came in to fight koh, there was little we could do to support them other than attack ve, which we have been doing anyways. you are being intentionally obtuse about this arent you?
[/quote]

You keep calling people obtuse yet you keep ignoring half of the posts and only attacking the points that fit what you want to say(rather than the rest of the post that adds more support to the point you attacked). If I remember correctly VE has been wondering when someone was going to attack them since the beginning of this war. Part of my previous post stated that the reason VE was more of a threat to KoH and a strong Protector to Misfits was twofold. First they can give more nations to attack KoH, second they were able to do this because Polar and Co. left them with low counter attacks. It is not Misfit's fault that we took advantage of that situation.

Also if you could not spare the guys to attack Misfits to help KoH, why can Polar throw 15 attacks at us(thats half our member count) the day peace with KoH was signed(looks like you COULD have done more than attack VE, KoH was just not worth it to you)...a good Protector would have sent those nations earlier to help their protectorate rather than later as "retribution".
Also, Polar let Misfit's higher nations sit in War Mode for two weeks keeping Misfits alive to kill Polar's protectorate...two nations and you couldnt find a slot for them to slow Misfits down? I get tired of staring at a screen full of Peace Mode nations when my nuke anarchy ends and I go looking for targets...but hey more money I was able to send to nations attacking your Protectorate.
If I were KoH I would be looking for a new Protectorate since the main help Polar seems to be able to give them is a mass of whiners on the OWF and a blind eye when needed.

[quote]
check the warfare. we are fighting back hard. (i know i sent out more nukes than i took, thats for sure.)
[/quote]
Well lets see if you are fighting 2 wars it would be safe to assume that you fire two nukes to hit both of them for every one taken to hit you.
Every Polar nation I have fought turtled in under 3 days, and most didnt even bother nuking after day 5, but then again you may be the diamond in the rough that is Polar's war division.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299107413' post='2649987']
"you guys were an honorable alliance, therefore we must punish you for your honor. next time be dishonorable." i seem to be getting that from you guys.
[/quote]

I don't really feel like getting into bickering over micro-alliance reps, but I just couldn't help myself after reading this.

There is more to Bob than just blindly following an ideology. There are the people who have your backs, and most importantly, there is your alliance and your own nation. Not everything has to be about honor and dishonor and all that other rubbish. What is the point in winning if you come out of the war when your opponent wants you to, on their terms, with large amounts of damage on both sides? I wouldn't have personally asked for reps, but I can't really blame Misfits for doing so either. And if you do, well, you're probably on the other side and are just sore that one of your allies had to surrender. Next time, try keeping your government from spying on people and your protectorate wont be beaten within an inch of it's life and owe out reparations.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1299113863' post='2650178']
I know firsthand you Polars aren't big on fighting back, but you still count as a war.
[/quote]


Just stop....please. STA and NpO are fighting you back hard and you know it. If we weren't, your stats wouldn't be that low compared to your pre-war stats. This isn't me supporting my side btw. It's just common sense and the facts are there. Just like how FOK and iFOK are doing a good job against us.

OOC: I really hate arguing Viridians on these forums. It gets rquite annoying after awhile.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299115588' post='2650247']
You keep calling people obtuse yet you keep ignoring half of the posts and only attacking the points that fit what you want to say(rather than the rest of the post that adds more support to the point you attacked). If I remember correctly VE has been wondering when someone was going to attack them since the beginning of this war. Part of my previous post stated that the reason VE was more of a threat to KoH and a strong Protector to Misfits was twofold. First they can give more nations to attack KoH, second they were able to do this because Polar and Co. left them with low counter attacks. It is not Misfit's fault that we took advantage of that situation.[/quote]

ignoring half the posts? im responding to responses to my responses. am i expected to respond to every post in this thread? maybe im mistaken. maybe you mean ive been ignoring half of each post im responding to, to which i ask you to link me to the post.

as to your second point, i havent been arguing whether or not its mn's fault.

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299115588' post='2650247']Also if you could not spare the guys to attack Misfits to help KoH, why can Polar throw 15 attacks at us(thats half our member count) the day peace with KoH was signed(looks like you COULD have done more than attack VE, KoH was just not worth it to you)...a good Protector would have sent those nations earlier to help their protectorate rather than later as "retribution".[/quote]

to payback mn in kind. yes, i see where a temporary break in our previous strategy is an obvious sign that we hate koh. it couldnt possibly be to kill mn to the point where the reps theyre getting from our friends in koh are pointless. oh no, that wouldnt serve your pr at all.

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299115588' post='2650247']Also, Polar let Misfit's higher nations sit in War Mode for two weeks keeping Misfits alive to kill Polar's protectorate...two nations and you couldnt find a slot for them to slow Misfits down? I get tired of staring at a screen full of Peace Mode nations when my nuke anarchy ends and I go looking for targets...but hey more money I was able to send to nations attacking your Protectorate.
If I were KoH I would be looking for a new Protectorate since the main help Polar seems to be able to give them is a mass of whiners on the OWF and a blind eye when needed.[/quote]

ok, you fight ifok, fok, pc, ve and mn (am i forgetting someone?) and tell me how many slots you have active. (please note, im not going to just give away any real private information to our enemies. youll just have to deal with it.)

[quote name='Frodark' timestamp='1299115588' post='2650247']Well lets see if you are fighting 2 wars it would be safe to assume that you fire two nukes to hit both of them for every one taken to hit you.
Every Polar nation I have fought turtled in under 3 days, and most didnt even bother nuking after day 5, but then again you may be the diamond in the rough that is Polar's war division.
[/quote]

after the first few days of war, how many nukes a day do you honestly believe i can fire? one. its that simple. i can only buy one a day, so i can only fire one a day. brush up on some math. as for your claims, come down to 5k ns in a few weeks after i rebuild and then we can duel.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1299116465' post='2650279']
I don't really feel like getting into bickering over micro-alliance reps, but I just couldn't help myself after reading this.

There is more to Bob than just blindly following an ideology. There are the people who have your backs, and most importantly, there is your alliance and your own nation. Not everything has to be about honor and dishonor and all that other rubbish. What is the point in winning if you come out of the war when your opponent wants you to, on their terms, with large amounts of damage on both sides? I wouldn't have personally asked for reps, but I can't really blame Misfits for doing so either. And if you do, well, you're probably on the other side and are just sore that one of your allies had to surrender. Next time, try keeping your government from spying on people and your protectorate wont be beaten within an inch of it's life and owe out reparations.
[/quote]

the cb has been argued to death. if youve been keeping up with that argument, youll know what my response is before i post it.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299117321' post='2650322']
the cb has been argued to death. if youve been keeping up with that argument, youll know what my response is before i post it.
[/quote]

Well, you could try formulating a response to the other... 7 lines, instead of dismissing the entire argument based on the last thing I said. Or not. I don't particularly care, but if you're going to give me a quote notification, I'd like to have something of substance to read.

Then again, judging by your other posts, I'm not really sure what I expected. Shame on me.

[oddjob]

Red Riding Hood anyone?

[quote]Red Riding Hood has been seen as a parable of sexual maturity. In this interpretation, the red cloak symbolizes the blood of the menstrual cycle, braving the "dark forest" of womanhood. Or the cloak could symbolize the hymen (earlier versions of the tale generally do not state that the cloak is red). In this case, the wolf threatens the girl's virginity. The anthropomorphic wolf symbolizes a man, who could be a lover, seducer or sexual predator. This differs from the ritual explanation in that the entry into adulthood is biologically, not socially, determined.[/quote]

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1299118156' post='2650374']
Well, you could try formulating a response to the other... 7 lines, instead of dismissing the entire argument based on the last thing I said. Or not. I don't particularly care, but if you're going to give me a quote notification, I'd like to have something of substance to read.

Then again, judging by your other posts, I'm not really sure what I expected. Shame on me.
[/quote]

ive reread it five times and still cant understand what your point was, other than you think im sore about koh leaving the war, which im not. im more sore about mn getting pity for fighting a far lopsided war and people trying to justify mn's reps, which they havent.

(im sorry, im stuck at 'whats the point of winning the war if both sides are destroyed', when you later say that you dont agree with reps. if its not for reps or for honor, what, pray tell, is the point of war?)

Edited March 3, 2011 by Roi Loup

[Moridin]

Congratulations on receiving peace, KoH. You guys fought damn hard; much harder than we could ever have imagined asking for. Best of luck rebuilding.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1299117021' post='2650301']


Just stop....please. STA and NpO are fighting you back hard and you know it. If we weren't, your stats wouldn't be that low compared to your pre-war stats. This isn't me supporting my side btw. It's just common sense and the facts are there. Just like how FOK and iFOK are doing a good job against us.

OOC: I really hate arguing Viridians on these forums. It gets rquite annoying after awhile.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]STA stopped fighting hard a month ago. They make up the competent part of your coalition and they are a spent force.[/color]

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1299121208' post='2650516']
[color="#FF0000"]STA stopped fighting hard a month ago. They make up the competent part of your coalition and they are a spent force.[/color]
[/quote]
You overrate yourself a tad too bit....or more. STA is nuking VE nations as we speak, which makes them awesome by default.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1299121520' post='2650528']
You overrate yourself a tad too bit....or more.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]A tad too bit? What?

Pointing out the obvious is my role. Trying to deny it is yours.[/color]

[Hereno]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299119690' post='2650446']
ive reread it five times and still cant understand what your point was, other than you think im sore about koh leaving the war, which im not. im more sore about mn getting pity for fighting a far lopsided war and people trying to justify mn's reps, which they havent.

(im sorry, im stuck at 'whats the point of winning the war if both sides are destroyed', when you later say that you dont agree with reps. if its not for reps or for honor, what, pray tell, is the point of war?)
[/quote]

The only two reasons you can think of to fight a war are for honor or reparations? What in Admin's name are they teaching you over in Polaris?

[Callebaut]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1299122646' post='2650576']
The only two reasons you can think of to fight a war are for honor or reparations? What in Admin's name are they teaching you over in Polaris?
[/quote]

Might explain why they don't see spying as a valid CB, haha.

[foxfire99]

First of all, you aren't doing that much damage. We hurt far more in Karma, the last war we fought in a central front. We lose stats because everyone is taking a nuke every day. You, on the other hand, are being kept afloat by peace mode and recruitment. I've heard the whole "credit FOK and iFOK" routine before, and a lot of it they deserve, but at some point you're going to have to accept that you're being beaten down by VE.

[OOC]You should try arguing with the Polars. At least Viridians all have shift keys. [/OOC]

Edited March 3, 2011 by foxfire99

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1299122646' post='2650576']
The only two reasons you can think of to fight a war are for honor or reparations? What in Admin's name are they teaching you over in Polaris?
[/quote]

well yes. im assuming ve is fighting to preserve their honor. i suppose you could throw in revenge and such. but i digress. i asked you what the point to war was. i suppose its easy to mistake my question for me asking for a deflection from you.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='foxfire99' timestamp='1299123177' post='2650595']
First of all, you aren't doing that much damage. We hurt far more in Karma, the last war we fought in a central front. We lose stats because everyone is taking a nuke every day. You, on the other hand, are being kept afloat by peace mode and recruitment. I've heard the whole "credit FOK and iFOK" routine before, and a lot of it they deserve, but at some point you're going to have to accept that you're being beaten down by VE.

[OOC]You should try arguing with the Polars. At least Viridians all have shift keys. [/OOC]
[/quote]

Yes, I realize that if everyone typed how you would like them to, there would certainly be a lot less deflections on the forums; however, I simply refuse to use proper punctuation and grammar simply to irritate the likes of you.

now that i have that out of the way, ve without fok would simply be curbstomped. i accept that ve needed fok's help to crush us. congrats on your curbstomp ve (and fok). would you like a medal for needing a military power like fok to kill your enemy? (id honestly love to 1v1 ve sometime to shut them up)

[Hereno]

[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1299123325' post='2650596']
well yes. im assuming ve is fighting to preserve their honor. i suppose you could throw in revenge and such. but i digress. i asked you what the point to war was. i suppose its easy to mistake my question for me asking for a deflection from you.
[/quote]

If you ask me a stupid question, be prepared to get a stupid answer. There's nothing deflective about that at all. I'm not going to sit here and rally off a laundry list of CBs for you, but if I did, "high gov encouraging someone to spy on us and then taking the spied info" would be among them.

[Manwe]

Please stay on topic.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Callebaut' timestamp='1299122736' post='2650579']
Might explain why they don't see spying as a valid CB, haha.
[/quote]


Are you trying to be funny...because you are failing. Just stop arguing about the stupid CB. You know our side and we know your side. Stop bringing it up because the majority don't want to argue over it for another time.