A Dark Templar Announcement

[AndrewHG]

Malice and Greed pretty much sums it up.
Interesting logs though.... Very "playground".
I'm surprised there wasn't a lunch money clause too.

[The Corrupt Teacher]

You know despite the fact that I hate the reps and all of this crap. I do have to say building alittle bit of hate never hurt CN. In fact hate and rivalries are the only thing keeping Bob alive. So I really really hope a nice big DT-CSN grudge comes out of this just to spice things up.

[Sam Winters]

Liz is known for outbursts on IRC.

First there was the incident with mooney88, where she was quite rude and verbal about the kicking of a CSN member in another alliances chan.

Second there was the incident with me, where without getting her facts straight, she went on to accuse me of brokering peace with CSNs protectorate.

That one looses her cool faster than she can type the F-words.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1297728407' post='2633598']
Way to bring OOC logs IC.
[/quote]

You are way too uptight to be someones MoFA.

Edited February 15, 2011 by AirMe

[Hunterman1043]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1297730032' post='2633630']
You are way too uptight to be someones MoFA.
[/quote]

iknowrite. Tisk Tisk.

[AuiNur]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297729447' post='2633619']
Sure it might be a week away, but you all knew peace was on it's way and negotiations had begun. You probably entered with the best intentions, but put yourself in their shoes. I'd be pretty angry, too, if me and my buddies were being attacked by the allies of the guys I was about to hand white peace to right in the middle of the talks. You can play the card that you were honor bound to enter, but even then, I don't see anything wrong with CSN keeping you at war for the time-being.

In reality, they probably never expected you to take those terms. They were still offered as an alternative, but were obviously jacked-up a bit because CSN wasn't ready to peace out. You'll probably take offense to this, but they're more of a favor than a way to keep your guys down. Come back after a few more rounds with them still being that high (if they even exist), and I'll take your side that they're being exploitative. But the evidence just doesn't add up for me to draw that conclusion right now.
[/quote]

So, you could say that, by offering the alternative, CSN was trying to be opportunistic, and maybe even greedy? The same thing they are accusing us, DT, for honoring an Optional Defense Pact? If CSN wasn't ready to peace out, then they should not have offered insane reparations and later try and [b]justify[/b] that same amount

[Sarmatian Empire]

[quote name='Hunterman1043' timestamp='1297728696' post='2633603']
I think that you need to leave CSN gov...
[/quote]
I think LoSS needs to talk more about how they are going to rebuild from the beatdown they recieved and less about CSN's gov.

[Liz Girard]

[quote name='Sam Winters' timestamp='1297729910' post='2633627']
Liz is known for outbursts on IRC.

First there was the incident with mooney88, where she was quite rude and verbal about the kicking of a CSN member in another alliances chan.

Second there was the incident with me, where without getting her facts straight, she went on to accuse me of brokering peace with CSNs protectorate.

That one looses her cool faster than she can type the F-words.
[/quote]


I have no problem condemning a skinhead who made racial slurs at multiple ethnic groups in public. Please, don't discuss what you don't know the details of.

[Hereno]

[quote name='AuiNur' timestamp='1297730747' post='2633643']
So, you could say that, by offering the alternative, CSN was trying to be opportunistic, and maybe even greedy? The same thing they are accusing us, DT, for honoring an Optional Defense Pact? If CSN wasn't ready to peace out, then they should not have offered insane reparations and later try and [b]justify[/b] that same amount
[/quote]

How is giving you an alternative being opportunistic or greedy? They could have said "no, you're not getting peace right now, come back later". But, instead, they go "we really don't want to give you peace, but if you're willing to pay more for it (as opposed to waiting for the price to come down), here's what we're offering." And so instead of "no thanks, we don't want peace THAT bad, we'll wait a week or two", you give them this thread, which is in no way making them want to give you a better deal for peace. If anything, it's made your chances of white peace go down significantly.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297731250' post='2633656']
How is giving you an alternative being opportunistic or greedy? They could have said "no, you're not getting peace right now, come back later". But, instead, they go "we really don't want to give you peace, but if you're willing to pay more for it (as opposed to waiting for the price to come down), here's what we're offering." And so instead of "no thanks, we don't want peace THAT bad, we'll wait a week or two", you give them this thread, which is in no way making them want to give you a better deal for peace. If anything, it's made your chances of white peace go down significantly.
[/quote]

Yes because ridiculous reps early are somehow not ridiculous...

[Bruce9891]

CSN is such a bunch of turds, goodluck DT!

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297729447' post='2633619']
Sure it might be a week away, but you all knew peace was on it's way and negotiations had begun. You probably entered with the best intentions, but put yourself in their shoes. I'd be pretty angry, too, if me and my buddies were being attacked by the allies of the guys I was about to hand white peace to right in the middle of the talks. You can play the card that you were honor bound to enter, but even then, I don't see anything wrong with CSN keeping you at war for the time-being.

In reality, they probably never expected you to take those terms. They were still offered as an alternative, but were obviously jacked-up a bit because CSN wasn't ready to peace out. You'll probably take offense to this, but they're more of a favor than a way to keep your guys down. Come back after a few more rounds with them still being that high (if they even exist), and I'll take your side that they're being exploitative. But the evidence just doesn't add up for me to draw that conclusion right now.
[/quote]
Can I just thank you for being the most reasonable person to disagree with us so far?

Frankly, we didn't see peace as around the corner. Nor did LoSS. That was enough for us to enter. Regardless of where talks was, I'd understand if an opponent entered on those conditions. Also, to be clear, we fought with Legacy and CSN for more than a week. This wasn't declare, launch missiles, send peace. There was plenty of fighting to be had and plenty of retribution to exacted by all parties. That being said, if they were so intent on peace, why prolong a war further than that? In a situation where we are only honoring treaty obligations, I see no reason.

And if they never expected us to take those terms, what was their purpose? A trap to keep us in the war for longer? I don't quite understand how you don't see CSN's malice and greed in this instance.

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1297730985' post='2633648']
I have no problem condemning a skinhead who made racial slurs at multiple ethnic groups in public. Please, don't discuss what you don't know the details of.
[/quote]
(OOC: I feel like the issue that you two are discussing is probably left outside the IC realm, as it seems to be a dispute over some controversial opinions that exist on Earth but not Bob)

[AuiNur]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297731250' post='2633656']
How is giving you an alternative being opportunistic or greedy? They could have said "no, you're not getting peace right now, come back later". But, instead, they go "we really don't want to give you peace, but if you're willing to pay more for it (as opposed to waiting for the price to come down), here's what we're offering." And so instead of "no thanks, we don't want peace THAT bad, we'll wait a week or two", you give them this thread, which is in no way making them want to give you a better deal for peace. If anything, it's made your chances of white peace go down significantly.
[/quote]

It is opportunistic because the first thing CSN says about the reps are:
[quote]
[22:18] <Goose|warmonger|> Okay.
[22:19] <Goose|warmonger|> These are the terms. It matters not when you take it.
[22:19] <Liz> The number remains the same Supa. Whether it happens now or in 3 weeks from now. Is that the point of disagreement?
[/quote]

[Hereno]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1297731469' post='2633661']
Yes because ridiculous reps early are somehow not ridiculous...
[/quote]

I'm looking at this from an economic standpoint. If the terms are viewed as being ridiculous, then simply don't take them and wait on your opponent to tire of war. It's not like this has been going on for a month, with no bending on CSN's part. Perma-war doesn't take place in the span of a week or two.

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297731546' post='2633663']
Can I just thank you for being the most reasonable person to disagree with us so far?

Frankly, we didn't see peace as around the corner. Nor did LoSS. That was enough for us to enter. Regardless of where talks was, I'd understand if an opponent entered on those conditions. Also, to be clear, we fought with Legacy and CSN for more than a week. This wasn't declare, launch missiles, send peace. There was plenty of fighting to be had and plenty of retribution to exacted by all parties. That being said, if they were so intent on peace, why prolong a war further than that? In a situation where we are only honoring treaty obligations, I see no reason.

And if they never expected us to take those terms, what was their purpose? A trap to keep us in the war for longer? I don't quite understand how you don't see CSN's malice and greed in this instance.
[/quote]

The purpose would be to offer you an alternative that would be mutually beneficial - you would get peace, and they would get reps. As I said before, it's mainly "are you willing to pay this much for peace?" So, if you aren't, just say "no" and move on. At one point, DT was going to accept the terms with a few adjustments, so CSN wasn't that far off in judging how much you all would pay for peace. However, they overshot a bit, and that lands us here now.

[quote name='AuiNur' timestamp='1297731575' post='2633664']
It is opportunistic because the first thing CSN says about the reps are:
[/quote]


When you see an infomercial guy on TV go "This is a limited time offer! Only the first 1,000 callers will get the item for this low low price!" do you actually believe them? It's within the realm of possibility that this is the same tactic being employed against you guys. If you call the 1-800 number to try and order the item a month after the commercial, the item is still for sale, and probably for the same price advertised.

The only way you'll know for sure whether or not I'm wrong is to be patient and wait. And, as I said before, if these terms really are the only ones you get in the next few weeks, I'll have no choice but to agree with you.

[AuiNur]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297732262' post='2633675']
When you see an infomercial guy on TV go "This is a limited time offer! Only the first 1,000 callers will get the item for this low low price!" do you actually believe them? It's within the realm of possibility that this is the same tactic being employed against you guys. If you call the 1-800 number to try and order the item a month after the commercial, the item is still for sale, and probably for the same price advertised.

The only way you'll know for sure whether or not I'm wrong is to be patient and wait. And, as I said before, if these terms really are the only ones you get in the next few weeks, I'll have no choice but to agree with you.
[/quote]

Fine, that sounds valid, they tried to bluff out some reps. My issue with CSN is their reasoning for keeping us in the war, which unfortunately is their same reason for reps.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297732262' post='2633675']
I'm looking at this from an economic standpoint. If the terms are viewed as being ridiculous, then simply don't take them and wait on your opponent to tire of war. It's not like this has been going on for a month, with no bending on CSN's part. Perma-war doesn't take place in the span of a week or two.[/quote]

And I'm saying that it was wrong for such over the top reps to be offered in the first place. Nobody deserves reps in this war, certainly not alliances that only clash in defense of allies.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297732262' post='2633675']
I'm looking at this from an economic standpoint. If the terms are viewed as being ridiculous, then simply don't take them and wait on your opponent to tire of war. It's not like this has been going on for a month, with no bending on CSN's part. Perma-war doesn't take place in the span of a week or two.



The purpose would be to offer you an alternative that would be mutually beneficial - you would get peace, and they would get reps. As I said before, it's mainly "are you willing to pay this much for peace?" So, if you aren't, just say "no" and move on. At one point, DT was going to accept the terms with a few adjustments, so CSN wasn't that far off in judging how much you all would pay for peace. However, they overshot a bit, and that lands us here now.




When you see an infomercial guy on TV go "This is a limited time offer! Only the first 1,000 callers will get the item for this low low price!" do you actually believe them? It's within the realm of possibility that this is the same tactic being employed against you guys. If you call the 1-800 number to try and order the item a month after the commercial, the item is still for sale, and probably for the same price advertised.

The only way you'll know for sure whether or not I'm wrong is to be patient and wait. And, as I said before, if these terms really are the only ones you get in the next few weeks, I'll have no choice but to agree with you.
[/quote]
I agree with your standpoint in the case of a central conflict. But this is a peripheral conflict that only exists due to treaty obligations. The idea of perma-war should not even be a thought on this front. As far as mutually beneficial - I would be more inclined to accept that argument (not necessarily agree with it, but accept it as valid) if this was Legacy demanding reparations, as that is the alliance who we declared war on and attacked. Considering that the alliance who is demanding reparations is one who counterattacked us, you can see why people are balking. Additionally, many people, including myself, are outraged that peace even needs to be paid for on such a front. It was conducted as any other peripheral front was, thus, it should be treated as such.

As far as your infomercial analogy goes . . . Liz said in no uncertain terms that the offer would remain the same for an indefinite time. That gave us no incentive to accept them sooner rather than later (though such absurd terms really have no incentive to be accepted at all). Obviously, the conditions under which the 40,000 tech is to be sent have been changed, but the fact that they exist as well as the staggering amount is beyond outrageous.

[Hereno]

[quote name='AuiNur' timestamp='1297732944' post='2633685']
Fine, that sounds valid, they tried to bluff out some reps. My issue with CSN is their reasoning for keeping us in the war, which unfortunately is their same reason for reps.
[/quote]

Well, making this thread only adds more reasons to the list of "why we should keep DT at war".

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1297733452' post='2633692']
And I'm saying that it was wrong for such over the top reps to be offered in the first place. Nobody deserves reps in this war, certainly not alliances that only clash in defense of allies.
[/quote]

I, too, am against punitive reps, and keeping people at war forever unless they pay tons in reps. That is not the case here. If you can either give me white peace right off the bat, or make me pay you for peace and achieve the peace in the same relative time frame, most people would elect to get paid.

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297733753' post='2633699']
I agree with your standpoint in the case of a central conflict. But this is a peripheral conflict that only exists due to treaty obligations. The idea of perma-war should not even be a thought on this front. As far as mutually beneficial - I would be more inclined to accept that argument (not necessarily agree with it, but accept it as valid) if this was Legacy demanding reparations, as that is the alliance who we declared war on and attacked. Considering that the alliance who is demanding reparations is one who counterattacked us, you can see why people are balking. Additionally, many people, including myself, are outraged that peace even needs to be paid for on such a front. It was conducted as any other peripheral front was, thus, it should be treated as such.

As far as your infomercial analogy goes . . . Liz said in no uncertain terms that the offer would remain the same for an indefinite time. That gave us no incentive to accept them sooner rather than later (though such absurd terms really have no incentive to be accepted at all). Obviously, the conditions under which the 40,000 tech is to be sent have been changed, but the fact that they exist as well as the staggering amount is beyond outrageous.
[/quote]

I agree with you; but the thing is, perma-war isn't being thought of right now. Like I told Ragashingo, perma-war doesn't happen in the course of a few weeks. If you're that upset about the option of paying for peace, then do your best to make it hurt bad enough for it to be in CSN's best interest to let you off with light/no reps. The problem is, that by making this thread, you made it in CSN's best interest to keep you at war even longer, and to be stiffer in their reps. They were called out in public over reps they never intended to get, and probably feel now that they have to extract at least some reps to save image. There are many people who would respect to see them cave in, but these are the same people who already disliked them before this incident.

[Biff Webster]

I hope Vijay Malik will give his opinion on the matter soon.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297735089' post='2633717']
I, too, am against punitive reps, and keeping people at war forever unless they pay tons in reps. That is not the case here. If you can either give me white peace right off the bat, or make me pay you for peace and achieve the peace in the same relative time frame, most people would elect to get paid.
[/quote]

Not according to this topic.

[zzzptm]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1297735242' post='2633719']
I hope Vijay Malik will give his opinion on the matter soon.
[/quote]
I love you too, Biff. Will you be my BFF, BiFF?

Also, to stay on topic, CSN... seriously... no... oh man... jeez...

Dark Templar, keep fighting. Not that you needed anyone to tell you that.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1297735089' post='2633717']
Well, making this thread only adds more reasons to the list of "why we should keep DT at war".



I, too, am against punitive reps, and keeping people at war forever unless they pay tons in reps. That is not the case here. If you can either give me white peace right off the bat, or make me pay you for peace and achieve the peace in the same relative time frame, most people would elect to get paid.
[/quote]
So you do not believe in punitive reps, but you do seem to be okay with punitive war extensions for speaking out against injustice?
I don't follow this one.

[Penkala]

This is still going? Cute.

Listen, as much as you want to paint CSN as the next NPO, it's not going to happen. CSN gave you terms for an early exit from the war. If you don't want to take them, you don't have to. The terms will probably get lighter as the war continues. This is fairly normal in warfare. If you want to leave with minimal damages, you're going to have to pay some reps. Otherwise we'll see more alliances like DT enter in on color treaties to nuke a side of a war for a week then run off and rebuild.

The reps being asked of DT (10k) are not unreasonable. The total reps aren't so bad either. And DT could have negotiated them down. Instead, DT squandered negotiations on demands for white peace. Frankly, the fact that DT could bandwagon onto a side of the war and get off with only 30k tech if they played their cards right is hilarious. Especially given that only 10k of it would have actually come from DT. Over a 6 month period.

To clarify, CSN is asking for what (even now) amounts only to 7% of DT's total tech from them, over a 6-month period. It was probably closer to 5% before. And this is the charge to leave the war early.

So really, everyone needs to take a step back and take a deep breath. The war just started 2 weeks ago. CSN gave DT terms after a week of warfare. This war WILL be concluded with reasonable or no reps, period. And that's despite the incredibly obscene outside actions taken by DT and her supporters.

CSN is being more than fair. So stop screaming about injustice for a moment and look at the facts.

Let me lay this out for you: 2 nations using 5 aid slots could send 90% of DT's required aid in the allotted time. TWO NATIONS. That sure is some NPO level !@#$ right there, guys!

Edited February 15, 2011 by Penkala

[Hereno]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1297735326' post='2633723']
Not according to this topic.
[/quote]

[IMG]http://i53.tinypic.com/fvcz8w.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297735664' post='2633735']
So you do not believe in punitive reps, but you do seem to be okay with punitive war extensions for speaking out against injustice?
I don't follow this one.
[/quote]

The 'war extension' isn't punitive at all. Instead of being able to go "alright, fine, we'll give you white peace" a week from now, CSN is now stuck between a rock and a hard place. They can give in to your pressure, but then they look weak, and encourage this kind of behavior in the future. On the other hand, they can stick to their guns, and show they mean business, but end up being the "bad guy" and taking more reps than they intended, which might also hurt their image.

Edit: Penkala puts it pretty well.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Hereno

[PrinceArutha]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297664001' post='2632550']
I assure you that this war will be ended fairly and that CSN will treat DT with all the dignity and respect that they earn throughout this conflict. CSN isn't ready to let DT off just yet with white peace, so the war continues. *shrug*

Plenty of alliances haven't even been OFFERED terms to end the war yet. I don't see you decrying the EZI of all of their members. Give it time and this war will be resolved just like any other. DT just saw a chance to take an early peace offer and turn it into propaganda points. It's sad that a lot of people are falling for it.
[/quote]

Doesnt look like propaganda to me.... I havent seen anyone dispute what was said. Sure, DT has worded things in the OP in a light such as to hit on the points however, It looks pretty cut and dry. They posted the information that was already public and made it...More public? I think you understand where I am going on this one. I'm not trying to stir the pot or bash CSN. My personal opinion is that CSN is acting like an asshat and I know you (fairly well) and I believe that if you remove yourself from the situation and look at it from an unbiased 3rd party you might lean a little more towards my way of viewing the situation. Granted, my view MIGHT be a little skewed due to being friends with pretty much everyone in DT's government.
Also, having RIA jump DT who are already trying to negotiate peace terms doesnt seem like trying to "work things out".