Will your opinion of Pacifica or Polaris change after this war?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297986940' post='2637042']
Thanks for stopping by. Question though, did the NSO never have any designs of entering NpO-VE?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Our relationship with the STA is well known.[/color]

[Crymson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297966808' post='2636763']
[color="#0000FF"]Because it was. You saw your chance to hit the NPO while half of its allies were tied up defending Polar and Co. You had been waiting for the chance ever since they finished paying reps, and when they didn't screw up you started looking at its allies for something.
[/quote]

Doomhouse could easily have waited until after the NpO front was complete, at which time many of NPO's allies would have been battered to hell anyway, and then hit NPO on whatever CB and had the support of many of those alliances currently tied up against NpO & friends or rebuilding from that affair. It would have been an absolute curbstomp. As such, your point has no substance. That said, the above is precisely the reason why so many people were sure that the NPO would enter this war if the correct circumstances arose; it would have been suicidal in the long run for them to have stayed out. Whereas they would have had a small chance of winning if they entered at the right time, or at least of fighting the war to a scorched-earth stalemate, they would have had absolutely no chance if they stayed out and allowed so many on their side of the web to be effectively obliterated.

The best available argument people seem to have against the claims that the NPO would have entered is "The NPO says they weren't planning on entering." Do you truly expect us to simply take at complete face value whatever the NPO says? The memories many have of the NPO are not nearly so short.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297991995' post='2637107']
Doomhouse could easily have waited until after the NpO front was complete, at which time many of NPO's allies would have been battered to hell anyway, and then hit NPO on whatever CB and had the support of many of those alliances currently tied up against NpO & friends or rebuilding from that affair. It would have been an absolute curbstomp. As such, your point has no substance. That said, the above is precisely the reason why so many people were sure that the NPO would enter this war if the correct circumstances arose; it would have been suicidal in the long run for them to have stayed out. Whereas they would have had a small chance of winning if they entered at the right time, or at least of fighting the war to a scorched-earth stalemate, they would have had absolutely no chance if they stayed out and allowed so many on their side of the web to be effectively obliterated.

The best available argument people seem to have against the claims that the NPO would have entered is "The NPO says they weren't planning on entering." Do you truly expect us to simply take at complete face value whatever the NPO says? The memories many have of the NPO are not nearly so short.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Oh give me a break with the NPO tyranny nonsense already. I was there. I did something about it long before you ninnies ever had the stones to. I also got over it.

As for them possibly coming in, I guess we'll never know.[/color]

[WorldConqueror]

I'm confused as to when 'they could possibly enter a war' become a widely accepted CB.

[Taishaku]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297991995' post='2637107']
Doomhouse could easily have waited until after the NpO front was complete, at which time many of NPO's allies would have been battered to hell anyway, and then hit NPO on whatever CB and had the support of many of those alliances currently tied up against NpO & friends or rebuilding from that affair. It would have been an absolute curbstomp. As such, your point has no substance. That said, the above is precisely the reason why so many people were sure that the NPO would enter this war if the correct circumstances arose; it would have been suicidal in the long run for them to have stayed out. Whereas they would have had a small chance of winning if they entered at the right time, or at least of fighting the war to a scorched-earth stalemate, they would have had absolutely no chance if they stayed out and allowed so many on their side of the web to be effectively obliterated.

The best available argument people seem to have against the claims that the NPO would have entered is "The NPO says they weren't planning on entering." Do you truly expect us to simply take at complete face value whatever the NPO says? The memories many have of the NPO are not nearly so short.
[/quote]

I doubt that most of the alliances currently fighting NpO would be comfortable (or capable of) supporting Doomhouse in a totally blatant attack on NPO after concluding a global war.

And yeah, I doubt the NPO would have sat this war out. Still, it does not justify Doomhouse's actions (from neither a moral nor a pragmatic standpoint).

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297991995' post='2637107']
Doomhouse could easily have waited until after the NpO front was complete, at which time many of NPO's allies would have been battered to hell anyway, and then hit NPO on whatever CB and had the support of many of those alliances currently tied up against NpO & friends or rebuilding from that affair. It would have been an absolute curbstomp. As such, your point has no substance. That said, the above is precisely the reason why so many people were sure that the NPO would enter this war if the correct circumstances arose; it would have been suicidal in the long run for them to have stayed out. Whereas they would have had a small chance of winning if they entered at the right time, or at least of fighting the war to a scorched-earth stalemate, they would have had absolutely no chance if they stayed out and allowed so many on their side of the web to be effectively obliterated.

The best available argument people seem to have against the claims that the NPO would have entered is "The NPO says they weren't planning on entering." Do you truly expect us to simply take at complete face value whatever the NPO says? The memories many have of the NPO are not nearly so short.
[/quote]

Tell me Crymson, how does it feel to have paid all those reparations - and made some of your allies do the same in the process - for doing something that your present allies are doing? Present allies who are incidentally the same people who made you pay the attrocious reparations. How does it feel helping them doing it?

Hopefully "like an idiot" is not one of the replies.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Taishaku' timestamp='1297993170' post='2637124']
I doubt that most of the alliances currently fighting NpO would be comfortable (or capable of) supporting Doomhouse in a totally blatant attack on NPO after concluding a global war.
[/quote]

They'd be capable after a couple of months. And if you think many wouldn't be willing, then you're either very naive or very unaware of just how much a big chunk of the Cyberverse still dislikes Pacifica and is in no mood to see them become any sort of world power again. And for being people who repeatedly and unashamedly went after alliances for no reason other than that those alliances had the potential to be a threat, many members of the NPO are oddly unaware that the exact same thing could be done to them. And do you remember how many alliances were only too happy to support the NPO in those wars?

[quote]
And yeah, I doubt the NPO would have sat this war out. Still, it does not justify Doomhouse's actions (from neither a moral nor a pragmatic standpoint).
[/quote]

It was not a bad tactical move. As for 'moral,' give me a break. If the NPO were hit later on any CB, you'd be complaining in the same fashion.


[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1297993224' post='2637126']
Tell me Crymson, how does it feel to have paid all those reparations - and made some of your allies do the same in the process - for doing something that your present allies are doing? Present allies who are incidentally the same people who made you pay the attrocious reparations. How does it feel helping them doing it?

Hopefully "like an idiot" is not one of the replies.
[/quote]

I can tell you that nobody in TOP really cares. Is that good enough for you?

In answer to your comment that we "made some of our allies" pay reparations, I think you're unaware that the preemptive attack on CnG was a joint Duckroll/TOP/TSO operation. We also were not in control over what reparations alliances on the other side gave to alliances on ours. Finally, the choice to chain in was made by all those alliances (excepting those with MADPs or with treaties that did not have non-chaining clauses) who joined on our side. While their contribution was certainly valued by all involved, they were there by choice rather than by treaty obligation.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Crymson

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297993732' post='2637134']Finally, the choice to chain in was made by all those alliances (excepting those with MADPs or with treaties that did not have non-chaining clauses) who joined on our side.[/quote]
That's not actually true.

IRON was hit by a bandwagoner during Bipolar, so all of IRON's direct allies were forced to defend them if they were able.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297995431' post='2637161']
That's not actually true.

IRON was hit by a bandwagoner during Bipolar, so all of IRON's direct allies were forced to defend them if they were able.
[/quote]

Ah. Good point. That said, I don't see how that is TOP's fault.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1297995518' post='2637162']
Ah. Good point. That said, I don't see how that is TOP's fault.
[/quote]
Other than poor tactical choices, in which IRON shared, not at all. Just correcting the facts.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297995986' post='2637168']
Other than poor tactical choices, in which IRON shared, not at all. Just correcting the facts.
[/quote]

It wouldn't have been a poor tactical choice had we won

[Monster]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Grub doesn't pull the rug under them and it would have turned out to be the best tactical move for them, win or lose.

[Haflinger]

Think what you want; the only way that war was conceivably winnable was if C&G stayed out or split. TOP's decision kind of wiped out those possibilities.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1297420971' post='2629226']
I've always loved Polar.


Random's almost always straightforward and he has the ability to be nice.

What I always found amusing about you was the way you attempted to be, or least attempted to appear to be, insightful and intelligent when you never had the ability to do either.
[/quote]

[color="#FF0000"]My insight is merely pointing out the facts that are obvious to me. It your perogative if you want to refute the blatantly obvious. Some have tried. It seems to be a common trait within Polaris itself, as well of the rest of Pacifica's cousins.

Random is straightforward, but he has been a pain in the ass to deal with in my experiences. Yours may differ, due to the fact you agree with him on a general level more than I did.[/color]

[Crymson]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297996847' post='2637177']
Think what you want; the only way that war was conceivably winnable was if C&G stayed out or split. TOP's decision kind of wiped out those possibilities.
[/quote]

You've just effectively declared that your viewpoint is absolute and that everyone else's is wrong. Worse, you're saying so to someone who was leader of an alliance fighting on CnG's side in that war.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Crymson

[Monster]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1297996847' post='2637177']
Think what you want; the only way that war was conceivably winnable was if C&G stayed out or split. TOP's decision kind of wiped out those possibilities.
[/quote]

It wouldn't have been as decisive of a defeat for TOP if Polar hadn't pulled the rug out from under them. That's what I mean. It would have been a far more close war. Those were never possibilities by the way. TOP enters conventionally and they would have gotten hit by C&G. The pre-empt was the best way to damage C&G. Having half of their side switch made it a much more difficult battle.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Branimir]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297998636' post='2637210']The pre-empt was the best way to damage C&G. [/quote]
TOP was a beast. Maybe one that this world will never see pound for pound again and in such absolute as well as relative figures.

The only way that beast could have ever lost their influence on a grand scale, and severe security due to their severe strength was to an act of total political stupidity. That preempt against a well connected, liked and strong block (at the time) was exactly that.

Stats, figures and numbers are not all that makes this world. To get lost in them is a mistake. TOP should have listened to Moldavi and let that war naturally progress or die off as it was the case other wise.

[Monster]

It wasn't stupid when Grub told them he wouldn't do anything to help MK. If Grub hadn't peaced \m/, it would have been much less of a loss for TOP. They did well given the advantage the other side had. The simple fact that alliances like FOK wouldn't have been free to counter them would have made all the difference in the world. From my own perspective, I wasn't happy with what TOP was doing in general since they chose helping Polar over helping us and staying out, so I'm speaking purely in strategic terms.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1297999598' post='2637233']
TOP was a beast. Maybe one that this world will never see pound for pound again and in such absolute as well as relative figures.

The only way that beast could have ever lost their influence on a grand scale, and severe security due to their severe strength was to an act of total political stupidity. That preempt against a well connected, liked and strong block (at the time) was exactly that.

Stats, figures and numbers are not all that makes this world. To get lost in them is a mistake. TOP should have listened to Moldavi and let that war naturally progress or die off as it was the case other wise.
[/quote]
If we had listened to Moldavi we most likely would have came in on the SF front. While engaged with Superfriends we would have been attacked by CnG. This world will never see another alliance that could have matched us pound for pound but that would have not mattered if we would have gotten sandwiched by both SF/CnG along with all their allies. We would have been creamed.

Our pre-emptive attack is regarded as politically stupid because we lost. Had the rug not been pulled out from under the entire coalition so that someone could achieve their vengeance then our side would have faired so much better. The strategy was used to give us a fighting chance.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1298001705' post='2637265']
The simple fact that alliances like FOK wouldn't have been free to counter them would have made all the difference in the world.
[/quote]
FOK declared war on us about a month into the conflict. Their arrival, while late, was needed because we still held a very slight edge in certain high NS ranges. We actually had a wave of attacks planned to knock out those nations when FOK came in. Their attack gave the other side numerical advantage in that NS range and it was around then that we decided to stop the offensive. Fun fact, I guess.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Feanor Noldorin

[Crymson]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1298002491' post='2637275']
FOK declared war on us about a month into the conflict. Their arrival, while late, was needed because we still held a very slight edge in certain high NS ranges. We actually had a wave of attacks planned to knock out those nations when FOK came in. Their attack gave the other side numerical advantage in that NS range and it was around then that we decided to stop the offensive. Fun fact, I guess.
[/quote]

Aye. Polaris coming in to keep us out of peace mode was a problem, too.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Crymson

[Azaghul]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297893608' post='2635971']
And look at that, the same thing happened, our fate was at the whim of the first person who decided we looked at them funny, because of our lack of connections.

Its not about blaming the NPO for getting attacked. I blame the NPO for doing nothing for two years to discourage anybody from attacking them. Not enough treaties is worse than no treaties if you are on somebodies hitlist. Especially if you are number one on the list and just sign with numbers 2 through 5. That encourages attack rather than deters it.

GPA has no treaties at all but survives because of things like well known foreign policy (or rather lack of) and things like the DoN, official recognition of their status as an observer. It worked for them for a long long time until again, somebody thought they were an easy mark and moved on them. Still 5 years and only one war is a pretty good track record.

But one of the major factors that keeps GPA relatively secure is something NPO has never ever tried to do. Not piss people off. Nobody wants to go after the GPA, but NPO spend years building grudges. Not taking steps to smooth over those grudges was short sighted, and as it turns out, fairly suicidal.

NPO makes a career out of poking the hornets nest, and then acts surprised when the hive comes after them. If you want to be a loud mouthed jackass you need better connections to get away with it than NPO has. CN history is littered with groups who shouted "Don't like what I'm saying? Make me shut up!" without first checking to make sure nobody would take them up on the offer.

So yea ownership for the actual attack lies solely with the attackers, but without understand what let the attack happen in the first place you simply ignore reality. The irony of the actual attack aside, the sheer silliness of doing the FA equivalent of sitting on their hands for 2 years instead of trying to secure their future is is just mindboggling. The amount of insularity to takes to not see this outcome coming from two years away is also massive. In fact, NPO has already said they knew something like this was coming. Its why they signed that treaty blitz in the same announcement that ended their terms. So they knew people were gunning for them, but did nothing to try and stop it.

So, once again I go back to what happened to allow this scenario at all rather than the merits of it.

The merits of the current war are an entirely different conversation, this is about if our opinions of The Orders will change after the war, and I'm detailing the actions and failures to act that show me they haven't changed at all. They still think like somebody who gets to call the shots, they still think like somebody whom others will approach, when they are the ones who need to do the approaching now. They are large but have very little influence and power they can wield. Not accepting these new realities and working from those shows me an institutional inability to be anything other than they are.
[/quote]
As I see it this isn't about what they did before Karma. But they made it clear that they weren't over Karma, and were still fighting the propaganda battle over Karma by constantly beating the drum beat of "you are as bad or worse than we were!" That's not exactly conducive towards making anyone believe that they weren't out just to get revenge for losing Karma.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1298004250' post='2637306']
As I see it this isn't about what they did before Karma. But they made it clear that they weren't over Karma, and were still fighting the propaganda battle over Karma by constantly beating the drum beat of "you are as bad or worse than we were!" That's not exactly conducive towards making anyone believe that they weren't out just to get revenge for losing Karma.
[/quote]

More than that, the lack of outreach to bury the hatchet over past grudges I think was the biggest blunder. After Karma a lot of people would revert to a fairly neutral default. Even if they had of hated NPO then, a good beatdown is very cathartic. They could have used that as an opening to better relations with many people, but instead just hand waved away their histories as if losing a war [i]entitled [/i] them to a fresh start. That lack of effort to build a different public image of themselves means it was only a matter of time until peoples perceptions slid back to the pre-Karma ones.

The OWF posting just accelerated the slid and sabotaged any progress they might have made. Seeing the Pacifican old guard being the most vocal, acting exactly as they've always done only reinforced the idea that nothing at all had changed.

I'm sure NPO is full of pleasant people, the problem is we never see any of them, and when we do we only see them for brief periods before the Old guard returns and reminds of the NPO we remember. You can say (name) doesn't speak for the alliance all you want but when there's only a hand full of active OWF posters it doesn't matter if they are gov or not, that's the public image of your alliance.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1298005313' post='2637325']
More than that, the lack of outreach to bury the hatchet over past grudges I think was the biggest blunder. After Karma a lot of people would revert to a fairly neutral default. Even if they had of hated NPO then, a good beatdown is very cathartic. They could have used that as an opening to better relations with many people, but instead just hand waved away their histories as if losing a war [i]entitled [/i] them to a fresh start. That lack of effort to build a different public image of themselves means it was only a matter of time until peoples perceptions slid back to the pre-Karma ones.

The OWF posting just accelerated the slid and sabotaged any progress they might have made. Seeing the Pacifican old guard being the most vocal, acting exactly as they've always done only reinforced the idea that nothing at all had changed.

I'm sure NPO is full of pleasant people, the problem is we never see any of them, and when we do we only see them for brief periods before the Old guard returns and reminds of the NPO we remember. You can say (name) doesn't speak for the alliance all you want but when there's only a hand full of active OWF posters it doesn't matter if they are gov or not, that's the public image of your alliance.
[/quote]
Both played hand in hand with each other I think. They believed they were entitled to a fresh start while still trying to fight the propaganda battles from the past undermining whatever fresh start they might have been given.

[Heft]

I don't see very many vocal old guard members of the NPO around here, and haven't in probably years. The NPO "old guard" is really, really old and half of them aren't in the [i]world[/i] anymore and a lot that are aren't in NPO anymore.

Regardless of who has been posting under the NPO banner these last years, to say that they've been showing the same old attitude as the NPO used to is to just be blatantly ignorant.


edit: :eyeroll:

Edited February 18, 2011 by Heft