Tromp Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297815765' post='2634895'] Actually, our security and well being seem to be doing just fine thank you. We may not be a neutral alliance, but we have not been as aggressive as we have been historically. Would you prefer we be highly aggressive again and return to our old ways? [/quote] I think you misunderstood me. My point was that the NPO hasn't opted to openly declare its stance on the current war, which means that the rest of us will have to judge by what we have been able to gather, so that is behaviour and treaties. I'll concede that the NPO hasn't been as aggressive as in the past, but then again you weren't powerful enough to do so. [quote] We've not been outmaneuvered, we've simply taken the maneuvers that were available. Not all doors are open to us and that isn't necessarily our fault. Other doors would be stupid for us to take.[/quote] Possibly, although I believe you did have other options available to you. Alas, now you have to live with the results of your FA policy. [quote] I'm afraid I do. Hypocrisy, greed, and unwarranted aggression against another party are all forms of evil. It shall not be allowed to stand. [/quote] Decrying your opponents for being 'evil' is neglecting the fact that it is partly your own fault that you're in war now. You're no angel, sorry to disappoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='Velox' timestamp='1297867900' post='2635636'] I heard disbanding is the flavor of the month. [/quote] I don't like you, GOONS, but I would be sad to see you disband. Just hang in there, you can make it through this even if you have to change your name to [size="1"]goons[/size] after the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297795361' post='2634553'] And your full of !@#$. Your trying to put words in my mouth and misrepresenting my point. I'm saying they are [i]getting[/i] rolled now, not how the fight started, im talking about their losing the fight, they are losing now because they weren't able to make any kind of political outreach beyond the usual suspects. They have no treaty ties that makes anyone think twice, they have no political connections to multiple ends of the web to protect themselves. They are isolated in their own little corner of the web. And they are isolated because they couldn't convince anybody outside their own small circle they were worth the time of day. The image of the bad old NPO persisted, keeping them unpopular and isolated. I said nothing about approval or disapproval of how the war started, I said why its a losing war for NPO. I thought you were better than petty shenanigans like that, I'm sad to be wrong. [/quote] Not talking about how the war started? The two are inextricably linked. The NPO was attacked [i]because[/i] it was politically isolated, [i]because[/i] there was no way they'd be able to fight back and win. The reasons for them being in that position are irrelevant; perhaps they were biding their time in that 'corner of the web' apparently safe in the knowledge that they had nothing to fear so long as they didn't step on any toes. The fact remains that the NPO is being taken down, right now, for no reason other than self-satisfaction on the part of a few alliances with big egos. That you are trying to pin the blame on Pacific for what is happening to them is just beyond words. Simply because nobody without direct treaties is rushing in to defend Pacific and Polar has absolutely no bearing on the injustice of it all. If alliances [i]were[/i] rushing in they would get the usual "badwagoner!" political branding without a guarantee of being victorious against a very formidable line-up of alliances. Kind of like how nobody stepped up to help VE when you got rolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1297889812' post='2635894'] Kind of like how nobody stepped up to help VE when you got rolled. [/quote] And look at that, the same thing happened, our fate was at the whim of the first person who decided we looked at them funny, because of our lack of connections. Its not about blaming the NPO for getting attacked. I blame the NPO for doing nothing for two years to discourage anybody from attacking them. Not enough treaties is worse than no treaties if you are on somebodies hitlist. Especially if you are number one on the list and just sign with numbers 2 through 5. That encourages attack rather than deters it. GPA has no treaties at all but survives because of things like well known foreign policy (or rather lack of) and things like the DoN, official recognition of their status as an observer. It worked for them for a long long time until again, somebody thought they were an easy mark and moved on them. Still 5 years and only one war is a pretty good track record. But one of the major factors that keeps GPA relatively secure is something NPO has never ever tried to do. Not piss people off. Nobody wants to go after the GPA, but NPO spend years building grudges. Not taking steps to smooth over those grudges was short sighted, and as it turns out, fairly suicidal. NPO makes a career out of poking the hornets nest, and then acts surprised when the hive comes after them. If you want to be a loud mouthed jackass you need better connections to get away with it than NPO has. CN history is littered with groups who shouted "Don't like what I'm saying? Make me shut up!" without first checking to make sure nobody would take them up on the offer. So yea ownership for the actual attack lies solely with the attackers, but without understand what let the attack happen in the first place you simply ignore reality. The irony of the actual attack aside, the sheer silliness of doing the FA equivalent of sitting on their hands for 2 years instead of trying to secure their future is is just mindboggling. The amount of insularity to takes to not see this outcome coming from two years away is also massive. In fact, NPO has already said they knew something like this was coming. Its why they signed that treaty blitz in the same announcement that ended their terms. So they knew people were gunning for them, but did nothing to try and stop it. So, once again I go back to what happened to allow this scenario at all rather than the merits of it. The merits of the current war are an entirely different conversation, this is about if our opinions of The Orders will change after the war, and I'm detailing the actions and failures to act that show me they haven't changed at all. They still think like somebody who gets to call the shots, they still think like somebody whom others will approach, when they are the ones who need to do the approaching now. They are large but have very little influence and power they can wield. Not accepting these new realities and working from those shows me an institutional inability to be anything other than they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I like how people are still acting like it was an out of the blue "just cause" attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimm Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Given the DoW that was posted, it's pretty flipping hard to argue otherwise, yknow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyster Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote]I blame the NPO for doing nothing for two years to discourage anybody from attacking them. Not enough treaties is worse than no treaties if you are on somebodies hitlist. Especially if you are number one on the list and just sign with numbers 2 through 5. That encourages attack rather than deters it.[/quote] 2 years ago the NPO-Jarhead war hadn't even started yet, but that's irrelevant. Usually people have to do something to get attacked, but this time we would have had to do something not to get attacked? That's illogical. We got a good beating in Karma war because we did something. Now we didn't do anything and get a beating for that? Besides what's the point of sending an ambassador to MK when all we get in reply are jerking off jokes, bashing and hate? [quote]Its why they signed that treaty blitz in the same announcement that ended their terms.[/quote] Most of these treaties were simply sitting on the shelf for months on end waiting for the first chance to sign them. In fact some of them had never been broken in our hearts. That's the reason. [quote]I like how people are still acting like it was an out of the blue "just cause" attack[/quote] Aren't you the only one who doesn't believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='mikk206' timestamp='1297921830' post='2636410'] 2 years ago the NPO-Jarhead war hadn't even started yet, but that's irrelevant. [/quote] In two months it'll be 2 years since Karma kicked off. I rounded up. Sue me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MudBug Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1297227156' post='2626606'] My opinion of NPO fell. They were even worse fighters than I expected. [/quote] Funny, it shows you are not fighting, nor have you fought anybody in NPO....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='MudBug' timestamp='1297926242' post='2636488'] Funny, it shows you are not fighting, nor have you fought anybody in NPO....... [/quote] Whoa, a MudBug sighting. FOaD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1297227156' post='2626606'] My opinion of NPO fell. They were even worse fighters than I expected. [/quote] The brief, hollow, and short comments you leave.. are befitting of your moniker and as useless. Get some wit to load into those shells or have you nothing in your noggin to load them with? Edited February 17, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297877813' post='2635754'] I think you misunderstood me. My point was that the NPO hasn't opted to openly declare its stance on the current war, which means that the rest of us will have to judge by what we have been able to gather, so that is behaviour and treaties. I'll concede that the NPO hasn't been as aggressive as in the past, but then again you weren't powerful enough to do so. [/quote] Power is relative on Bob and subject to change with the will of the masses and is equally as fickle. [quote] Possibly, although I believe you did have other options available to you. Alas, now you have to live with the results of your FA policy. [/quote] Would you care to illustrate what you feel we could have done differently? [quote] Decrying your opponents for being 'evil' is neglecting the fact that it is partly your own fault that you're in war now. You're no angel, sorry to disappoint. [/quote] We did nothing to merit this war. We paid for our past crimes and were blindsided. By supporting evil and attempting to deflect blame from its proper placement; you likewise become evil. [quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297924503' post='2636450'] In two months it'll be 2 years since Karma kicked off. I rounded up. Sue me. [/quote] I would have to go against my hatred of frivolous lawsuits, so no. Speaking of which you wouldn't happen to be a lawyer would you? [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297893768' post='2635977'] I like how people are still acting like it was an out of the blue "just cause" attack. [/quote] That's because it is. Almost all the so called "justifications" for the attack have been made up on the spot as a result of pressured back-peddaling. At least MK was somewhat honest when they clearly stated they were out to "End it all" via Archon's announcement. I can somewhat respect that. But like most evil the bulk of you lack a moral spine to have any representation of honor and bring your true motives out in daylight. Edited February 17, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1297932111' post='2636546'] Power is relative on Bob and subject to change with the will of the masses and is equally as fickle. [/quote] I don't disagree. [quote] Would you care to illustrate what you feel we could have done differently? [/quote] To stay out of this war? Declare neutrality. And actually do something to correct your image among people, instead of reinforcing it. [quote] We did nothing to merit this war.[/quote]That's what you think, but it ain't true. [quote]We paid for our past crimes and were blindsided.[/quote] Not everyone agrees on that one too, especially those who didn't fought you back then. [quote]By supporting evil and attempting to deflect blame from its proper placement; you likewise become evil. [/quote] I like how you try to demonize everyone who does not agree with you. Too bad bud, but I find your arrogance to be unfitting for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qazzian Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I'm finding the number of people telling us "You should have declared neutrality" to be amusing, given they're the same people who're decrying us for "sitting in our own corner isolated". Had we declared neutrality, isn't that just what would happen? If your meaning is to declare neutrality in the VE-NpO war, that makes less sense. We saw VE declare war for essentially the same reason we declared on OV to kick off the Karma War. Our surrender terms stated that we started an unjustified attack on OV, and VE backed that statement and their allies in OV throughout the war. VE then turning around and did essentially the same thing to another alliance, which isn't going to draw our neutral side out as we watch it unfold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297953935' post='2636659'] I'm finding the number of people telling us "You should have declared neutrality" to be amusing, given they're the same people[/quote]Yeah, hold it right there. Mind finding a post from me where I 'decried you for sitting in your own corner'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daimos Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I doubt declaring neutrality was an option to NPO. Not with the possibility of our allies (specifically TPF) being drag into a war (NpO vs VE). My opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='MudBug' timestamp='1297926242' post='2636488'] Funny, it shows you are not fighting, nor have you fought anybody in NPO....... [/quote] The NPO members deleted the wars. If you want to send people out of peace mode just to prove my experience was wrong though, feel free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qazzian Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='Tromp' timestamp='1297956470' post='2636673'] Yeah, hold it right there. Mind finding a post from me where I 'decried you for sitting in your own corner'? [/quote] [quote] [quote] We've not been outmaneuvered, we've simply taken the maneuvers that were available. Not all doors are open to us and that isn't necessarily our fault. Other doors would be stupid for us to take.[/quote] Possibly, although I believe you did have other options available to you. Alas, now you have to live with the results of your FA policy.[/quote] Our FA and treaties kept us off on our own side, away from many of the other alliances. While you didn't say the exact words 'sitting in your own corner', you did say that our decision to do so lead to us having to "live with the results of your FA policy". My initial comment was not directed at you, Tromp, it just happened to be when I came back into the conversation after you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1297893768' post='2635977'] I like how people are still acting like it was an out of the blue "just cause" attack. [/quote] [color="#0000FF"]Because it was. You saw your chance to hit the NPO while half of its allies were tied up defending Polar and Co. You had been waiting for the chance ever since they finished paying reps, and when they didn't screw up you started looking at its allies for something. There is no reason for this war other than the fact that you don't like the NPO, and you're bored. As for the NPO not making any overtures to the powers that be, they did. I believe they began improving their relations with RnR to the point some alliances had to remind RnR not to associate with the NPO. It is the same kind of backroom blacklisting that alienated MK and others back in the day. That the NPO was unable to get any treaties that weren't outside the power structure is not do to any lack of effort on its part, nor any lack of effort to change its image. Rather, certain parties simply acted against their efforts.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagrr Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1297965444' post='2636748'] The NPO members deleted the wars. If you want to send people out of peace mode just to prove my experience was wrong though, feel free. [/quote] This is almost as persuasive of an argument as posting up individual battle reports. If I could base the sum total of MK's war making abilities on the two nations I've encountered, your position as "godliest military in CN" would be in dire jeopardy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='Qazzian' timestamp='1297966020' post='2636755'] Our FA and treaties kept us off on our own side, away from many of the other alliances. While you didn't say the exact words 'sitting in your own corner', you did say that our decision to do so lead to us having to "live with the results of your FA policy".[/quote] I made that comment because Maelstrom Vortext doesn't seem willing to admit that it is partly because of the position the NPO took on the world stage that the NPO now is where it is. Daimos did understand the point, so I'm not sure why he couldn't. [quote name='Daimos' timestamp='1297957967' post='2636687'] I doubt declaring neutrality was an option to NPO. Not with the possibility of our allies (specifically TPF) being drag into a war (NpO vs VE). My opinion. [/quote] [quote] My initial comment was not directed at you, Tromp, it just happened to be when I came back into the conversation after you posted. [/quote] That's alright, my mistake, so apologies to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qazzian Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Not a problem, these convos get crossed pretty quickly >_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nippy Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sulmar' timestamp='1297298542' post='2627439'] I don't even know what you mean by "GOONS could almost comfortably fight a defensive war." [/quote] Yeah, true. We're not comfortable fighting a defensive war....that's why we have more offensive wars than all of our aggressors combined have on us. Simply [i]mind boggling[/i]. Edited February 17, 2011 by nippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol Navy Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 A lot of people offering NPO advice about losing their hubris and acting humble should probably look in the mirror. There will be a day when you aren't on top of the mountain and all these actions (blatant hypocrisy, CBless wars, record shattering reps that last a year etc) will be returned to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mikk206' timestamp='1297921830' post='2636410'] Aren't you the only one who doesn't believe it. [/quote] I think Daimos cleared it up a bit in saying declaring neutrality was not an option for NPO in the NpO-VE. Perhaps his account doesn't represent the official views of the leadership, but if it was an option why didn't they do it? They've been pretty quiet in general on what their plans for NpO-VE were. Is it not the case that Pacifica's leadership wanted closer relations with Polar for months? Same goes for the Sith. Is it not the case that NPO's MADP partner treatied Polar's closest ally? Is it not the case that they have a mutual ally with NpO, the Legion who were suspiciously held off? All of the pre-war moves are being ignored for no real reason. It's almost as if NPO had just been in its corner doing nothing since the end of terms and the big bad Doomhouse came to get them for the hell of it if we go by this decontextualized narrative that people are buying into. I revealed Archon's motivation by actually posting a conversation I had with him. He's not around to defend himself, but it stands. [quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1297966808' post='2636763'] [color="#0000FF"]Because it was. You saw your chance to hit the NPO while half of its allies were tied up defending Polar and Co. You had been waiting for the chance ever since they finished paying reps, and when they didn't screw up you started looking at its allies for something. There is no reason for this war other than the fact that you don't like the NPO, and you're bored. [/quote] Thanks for stopping by. Question though, did the NSO never have any designs of entering NpO-VE? Edited February 18, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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