Response to Rebel Virginia's False Accusations

[Tygaland]

But, Heft, he has said it so many times it must be true!

[Kilkenny]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295781136' post='2593788']
But, Heft, he has said it so many times it must be true!
[/quote]


Heh, I guess that must be true...the more times it is said the more it must be true.

are there more logs out there, cause everything I have read of the conversations between Dajobo and lennox and Imperio and Lennox shows a vast diffeerence in who sent who. Dajobo's "method" of sending/instructing seems to revolve around I'm loling you do whatever and Imperio's includes specific instructions on what to say and how to deceive the intended target.

Also, 20 hours later, with no negotiations, you have no interest in talking to either Dajobo or NpO. Weren't yall vocal about NPO's attacking DURING negotiations in the lead up to Karma??

Might makes right!!! the new VE standard.



Oh, and where is MK in all this??? MK was mentioned in this as well. IF the fact that your alliance was brought up is valid reason for launching the war, and the sting operation was just to confirm...where is MK. The same applies to them too doesn't it????? seems kinda strange that the other "victim" in all this is strangly silent and absent from all this.

[Bob Janova]

It's like you guys don't even try to read. Right out of the DoW:
[quote]20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA
20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad
20:33 Dajobo|NpO| nah they aren't the enemy
20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on
20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| anything that happens will come through them first[/quote]
MHA 'aren't the enemy' and 'not worth spying on' – go spy on MK or VE instead. That is, Dajobo [i]sent the spy[/i] (Lennox/Chancy) to MK or VE. That is really the core of the CB, all this thread and RV's are about is getting conclusive proof that it really [i]was[/i] Dajobo doing that.

Edit: Kilkenny, one might argue that MK has a CB too, but the spy chose VE over MK of the two choices Dajobo gave him, so no spying on MK was ever actually done (at least by Lennox), so it isn't as strong as ours.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Bob Janova

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295791887' post='2593860']
It's like you guys don't even try to read. Right out of the DoW:

MHA 'aren't the enemy' and 'not worth spying on' – go spy on MK or VE instead. That is, Dajobo [i]sent the spy[/i] (Lennox/Chancy) to MK or VE. That is really the core of the CB, all this thread and RV's are about is getting conclusive proof that it really [i]was[/i] Dajobo doing that.

Edit: Kilkenny, one might argue that MK has a CB too, but the spy chose VE over MK of the two choices Dajobo gave him, so no spying on MK was ever actually done (at least by Lennox), so it isn't as strong as ours.
[/quote]

It's useless, they are just going to ignore it and instead focus on the inconsequential peripheral incidents.

This is why I'm not a fan of seeking or providing a valid CB to anyone not allied to me. They are just going to hand wave it away and make up their own line of reasoning. Just like we did way back when.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Viking

[PotFace]

[quote name='Audran' timestamp='1295770045' post='2593582']
If you mean Polar and allies plus those that didn't like us to begin with, then yes, I would agree with you.
[/quote]

So what you're saying, is that people that [i]don't[/i] like you guys are able to look at a very obvious and successful collusion to start a war for no other reason that VE doesn't like Polaris, and those that [b]do[/b] like you guys happen to look at said blatantly obvious circumstance, yet don't see anything at all?

If that's what you're saying, then you've just insulted yourselves and your allies. We've passed the point of, "well, yes, [i][b]but[/b][/i]", and "there could have been something else to this". I mean, the evidence here is exceptionally damning. It is what it is. Put it to you this way: regardless of how valuable you feel it is, it's much better stuff than what VE brought to the table with its DoW. You guys got caught - plain and simple. The polls scream it - it's not even a [i]close[/i] call.

[Audran]

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1295801379' post='2593967']
So what you're saying, is that people that [i]don't[/i] like you guys are able to look at a very obvious and successful collusion to start a war[/quote]

If they don't like us then I don't have any illusions about how they're going to view our CB no matter how solid it is.

[quote][b]for no other reason that VE doesn't like Polaris[/b][/quote]

This is just you trying to come up with some reason for us to attack you since you refuse to admit that you're second in command got caught spying. I won't say we were buddy buddy, but to think we disliked you to the point that we'd fabricate a CB just to take you out is a stretch. Just go look at the Polar embassy in our boards. Do the comments in there look like those of an alliance that wants to destroy you?

[quote]and those that [b]do[/b] like you guys happen to look at said blatantly obvious circumstance, yet don't see anything at all?[/quote]

Our allies are going to side with us, yours with you. I think that's pretty obvious from the comments I've seen so far. That's how it is in most wars.

[quote]I mean, the evidence here is exceptionally damning.[/quote]

Yeah, the evidence that Polar spied on VE is pretty damning.

edit: grammar

Edited January 23, 2011 by Audran

[TheEraser]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295791887' post='2593860']
It's like you guys don't even try to read. Right out of the DoW:

MHA 'aren't the enemy' and 'not worth spying on' – go spy on MK or VE instead. That is, Dajobo [i]sent the spy[/i] (Lennox/Chancy) to MK or VE. That is really the core of the CB, all this thread and RV's are about is getting conclusive proof that it really [i]was[/i] Dajobo doing that.

Edit: Kilkenny, one might argue that MK has a CB too, but the spy chose VE over MK of the two choices Dajobo gave him, so no spying on MK was ever actually done (at least by Lennox), so it isn't as strong as ours.
[/quote]
because normally when you run a spy ring, you let your agents choose where to go and what to do. get over yourself VE. Fact is Dajobo didn't tell him to spy on you guys (the logs you have even support this) the full unedited logs specifically show Dajobo saying that its a bad idea and that he would not, and could not, condone anything lenox wanted to do.

But hey when you're trying to make a CB close enough counts right? RIGHT?

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Audran' timestamp='1295807982' post='2594135']
Yeah, the evidence that Polar spied on VE is pretty damning.
[/quote]

Then i await the punishment of Impero who was the one who gave Lennox the screenshots he gave Dajobo. If said spy attempt is so damning, then those who aided said spying should be punished but i will just wait the blathering excuses from VE/allies about why Impero won't be punished for spying on VE. We already saw it with Lennox.

seems it is not that damning but instead just useful.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295818195' post='2594419']
Then i await the punishment of Impero who was the one who gave Lennox the screenshots he gave Dajobo. If said spy attempt is so damning, then those who aided said spying should be punished but i will just wait the blathering excuses from VE/allies about why Impero won't be punished for spying on VE. We already saw it with Lennox.

seems it is not that damning but instead just useful.
[/quote]

Are you being that dense deliberately or is it a natural thing?

I'm genuinely curious, if you are deliberately doing it you aren't worth responding to, if you are not I'll address your point, even though it has been covered already previously.

[Audran]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295818195' post='2594419']
Then i await the punishment of Impero who was the one who gave Lennox the screenshots he gave Dajobo. If said spy attempt is so damning, then those who aided said spying should be punished but i will just wait the blathering excuses from VE/allies about why Impero won't be punished for spying on VE. We already saw it with Lennox.

seems it is not that damning but instead just useful.
[/quote]


You obviously did not read the OP.

[Dochartaigh]

@Type/Audran- yes, i am being deliberately dense. yes i read the OP. There have been questions regarding the OP and frankly, Impero gave Lennox screenshots of VE forums for the sole purpose of being passed onto Dajobo. iirc- that is called spying by most.

how about this Typo, i am being just as dense with this question as you and others are being with the accusation that Dajobo purposely sent Lennox to spy on VE. and that his "i am just lolling with you" is some throwaway item.

so, once you guys stop being so deliberately dense and stupid, maybe others won't have to resort to being deliberately dense to attempt to make a point. i would say the entire OP is just some throwaway item that Impero made in an attempt to salvage whatever scrap of respect VE once had.

[Der Kommissar]

[b][color="#FF0000"]How about you guys all relax a bit, k?[/color][/b]

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295824692' post='2594722']
@Type/Audran- yes, i am being deliberately dense. yes i read the OP. There have been questions regarding the OP and frankly, Impero gave Lennox screenshots of VE forums for the sole purpose of being passed onto Dajobo. iirc- that is called spying by most.

how about this Typo, i am being just as dense with this question as you and others are being with the accusation that Dajobo purposely sent Lennox to spy on VE. and that his "i am just lolling with you" is some throwaway item.

so, once you guys stop being so deliberately dense and stupid, maybe others won't have to resort to being deliberately dense to attempt to make a point. i would say the entire OP is just some throwaway item that Impero made in an attempt to salvage whatever scrap of respect VE once had.
[/quote]

But you are not making a point, you're just looking silly. The little log snippet that was (most recently) reposted by Bob is not a piece of information that is in dispute. Its Daj, a member of polar gov, suggesting to a spy that he go spy on VE.

Now this is a piece all of you keep missing so follow me here;

That alone is cause for war when combined with the fact that the spy did indeed arrive. Everything else, all the bits your are trying to demonize us for and crying setup over, they came after. This is the truly silly part, instead of rolling on what we had, which I reiterate was enough, we actually stopped and accumulated yet more evidence. We are being yelled at because we made the effort to make sure we had accurate information.

Polar's position on the other hand is a matter of motive rather than fact. We rolled based on the fact that a member of Polar gov sent us a spy. Polaris' position is that "he was just kidding" is frankly insulting, and not an excuse to absolve them of the responsibility of the actions of their government.

I go over this fairly regularly on a multitude of communications channels, but here it is again.

Welcome to the burdens of leadership. The second you make alliance government you stop being a person and become your title. You do not get an opinion, if you open your mouth you are speaking policy. When a member messes up you get to blow it off, because they don't know better. Government knows better. You can disavow a member who goes rogue, when government does they act for your alliance. Before a member of government speaks the first thought they should have is 'how will this reflect upon my alliance' because it will, no matter what they do, good or bad, and especially bad, government acts for their alliance.

Frankly I'm amazed more people haven't picked up on this, especially in light of how the Six Million Dollar war started. But that's besides the point.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295833239' post='2595006']
But you are not making a point, you're just looking silly. The little log snippet that was (most recently) reposted by Bob is not a piece of information that is in dispute. Its Daj, a member of polar gov, suggesting to a spy that he go spy on VE.

Now this is a piece all of you keep missing so follow me here;

That alone is cause for war when combined with the fact that the spy did indeed arrive. Everything else, all the bits your are trying to demonize us for and crying setup over, they came after. This is the truly silly part, instead of rolling on what we had, which I reiterate was enough, we actually stopped and accumulated yet more evidence. We are being yelled at because we made the effort to make sure we had accurate information.

Polar's position on the other hand is a matter of motive rather than fact. We rolled based on the fact that a member of Polar gov sent us a spy. Polaris' position is that "he was just kidding" is frankly insulting, and not an excuse to absolve them of the responsibility of the actions of their government.

I go over this fairly regularly on a multitude of communications channels, but here it is again.

Welcome to the burdens of leadership. The second you make alliance government you stop being a person and become your title. You do not get an opinion, if you open your mouth you are speaking policy. When a member messes up you get to blow it off, because they don't know better. Government knows better. You can disavow a member who goes rogue, when government does they act for your alliance. Before a member of government speaks the first thought they should have is 'how will this reflect upon my alliance' because it will, no matter what they do, good or bad, and especially bad, government acts for their alliance.

Frankly I'm amazed more people haven't picked up on this, especially in light of how the Six Million Dollar war started. But that's besides the point.
[/quote]

lawlz. it was also Daj, a member of Polar gov, who said that he did not condone spying and also Daj, a member of Polar gov who said he was joking the whole time. it appears that you are ignoring both of those remarks that Daj stated as a member of Polar gov. the most important one of all is the line where Daj, as a member of Polar gov, stating he (which according to you means Polaris) does not condone spying.

face it, your whole argument is !@#$%^&*. it has always been !@#$%^&*. it will always be !@#$%^&*. you ignore key lines yourself and then state we are ignoring !@#$? please. stfu. i tire of this bs you and others throw out. you are defending something that simply cant be defended. the two lines i stated in the paragraph above this one, disprove that Daj was ever attempting to establish a spy ring. the fact that you state that Daj is a member of gov and thus his words are set in stone, then guess what, you can't throw away his words like you are attemptin to do. even if his words destroy your entire argument from the get go. either his words all stick, or none of them stick. either way, your argument is gone.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295837592' post='2595238']
lawlz. it was also Daj, a member of Polar gov, who said that he did not condone spying and also Daj, a member of Polar gov who said he was joking the whole time. it appears that you are ignoring both of those remarks that Daj stated as a member of Polar gov. the most important one of all is the line where Daj, as a member of Polar gov, stating he (which according to you means Polaris) does not condone spying.
[/quote]

Well I thought we'd get somewhere, but you are still just ignoring anything contrary to your preconception. You'll just be added to the list of people I never bother directly addressing.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295842625' post='2595413']
Well I thought we'd get somewhere, but you are still just ignoring anything contrary to your preconception. You'll just be added to the list of people I never bother directly addressing.
[/quote]

wait i am ignoring things that are contrary to my preconception???? are you seriously trying to use that argument on me while you continue to ignore the fact that Dajobo stated he did not condone spying????

please add me to said list as i guarantee the people on said list have ceased losing intelligence from talking to you. i knew from the beginning that getting into any kind of discussion on this topic with you would lead basically nowhere as you continue to ignore relevant information that was stated prior to Dajobo discussing VE or MK (the relevant info being that Dajobo does not condone spying).

though i have to admit to be quite amused at your superior attitude considering you are doing the very thing you claim i am doing. i am not ignore the fact that he suggested VE as a potential spy target. but i am also not ignoring the fact that he already stated he does not condone spying and that he thought the whole topic to be a joke. which you are ignoring and focusing solely on the middle portion of the conversation. so please stop with your superior attitude as it only makes you look stupid.

[NoFish]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295843698' post='2595437']
wait i am ignoring things that are contrary to my preconception???? are you seriously trying to use that argument on me while you continue to ignore the fact that Dajobo stated he did not condone spying????

please add me to said list as i guarantee the people on said list have ceased losing intelligence from talking to you. i knew from the beginning that getting into any kind of discussion on this topic with you would lead basically nowhere as you continue to ignore relevant information that was stated prior to Dajobo discussing VE or MK (the relevant info being that Dajobo does not condone spying).

though i have to admit to be quite amused at your superior attitude considering you are doing the very thing you claim i am doing. i am not ignore the fact that he suggested VE as a potential spy target. but i am also not ignoring the fact that he already stated he does not condone spying and that he thought the whole topic to be a joke. which you are ignoring and focusing solely on the middle portion of the conversation. so please stop with your superior attitude as it only makes you look stupid.
[/quote]
Ask any alliance leader in the game and they will tell you that they don't condone spying. Approach half of them with intel and they'll ask you please, sir, can I have some more? Just because someone says something doesn't make it true.

[bbrownso]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295791887' post='2593860']
It's like you guys don't even try to read. Right out of the DoW:

MHA 'aren't the enemy' and 'not worth spying on' – go spy on MK or VE instead. That is, Dajobo [u][i]sent the spy[/i][/u] (Lennox/Chancy) to MK or VE. That is really the core of the CB, all this thread and RV's are about is getting conclusive proof that it really [i]was[/i] Dajobo doing that.

Edit: Kilkenny, one might argue that MK has a CB too, but the spy chose VE over MK of the two choices Dajobo gave him, so no spying on MK was ever actually done (at least by Lennox), so it isn't as strong as ours.
[/quote]

First, I have to point out how laughable the underlined conclusion is. This is horrendously bad logic and most of you should be ashamed of yourselves for pushing this garbage.

to recap:
[quote]20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA
20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad
20:33 Dajobo|NpO| nah they aren't the enemy
20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on
20:35 Chancy [b]Give me suggestions[/b]
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| [b]VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics[/b]
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| [b]anything that happens will come through them first[/b][/quote]

This so-called "spy" is asking for suggestions on who to spy from the supposed "ringleader?" That's a new one and to claim straight-faced that Dajobo SENT him to spy on VE or MK is laughable. Seriously, you, and you know who you are, should be laughed at for coming up with something so pathetic. At best, that's conspiracy to commit espionage but I still fail to see any serious intent on the part of Dajobo to actually commit espionage.

I look around at the world and weep when I see how far Planet Bob have fallen. How hollow promises of change have been forgotten and replaced by a tyranny that is what was "wrong" and fought not so long ago. There is no sliding scale for injustice. There is only shallow people and their petty grudges. I would have hoped that the people of Bob would have held true to their supposed convictions and remained vigilant against "tyranny;" now I clearly see that it was all a lie and propaganda.

I hope everyone enjoys another stomp based on a flimsy CB. It's amazing how things change and still remain the same.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Brandon Simonson' timestamp='1295851994' post='2596112']
First, I have to point out how laughable the underlined conclusion is. This is horrendously bad logic and most of you should be ashamed of yourselves for pushing this garbage.

to recap:


This so-called "spy" is asking for suggestions on who to spy from the supposed "ringleader?" That's a new one and to claim straight-faced that Dajobo SENT him to spy on VE or MK is laughable. Seriously, you, and you know who you are, should be laughed at for coming up with something so pathetic. At best, that's conspiracy to commit espionage but I still fail to see any serious intent on the part of Dajobo to actually commit espionage.

I look around at the world and weep when I see how far Planet Bob have fallen. How hollow promises of change have been forgotten and replaced by a tyranny that is what was "wrong" and fought not so long ago. There is no sliding scale for injustice. There is only shallow people and their petty grudges. I would have hoped that the people of Bob would have held true to their supposed convictions and remained vigilant against "tyranny;" now I clearly see that it was all a lie and propaganda.

I hope everyone enjoys another stomp based on a flimsy CB. It's amazing how things change and still remain the same.
[/quote]

well the new cry is that there was never any sort of promise of change and that all of that was some sort of propaganda created after Karma was done and over with...

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Brandon Simonson' timestamp='1295851994' post='2596112']
I look around at the world and weep when I see how far Planet Bob have fallen. How hollow promises of change have been forgotten and replaced by a tyranny that is what was "wrong" and fought not so long ago. There is no sliding scale for injustice. There is only shallow people and their petty grudges. I would have hoped that the people of Bob would have held true to their supposed convictions and remained vigilant against "tyranny;" now I clearly see that it was all a lie and propaganda.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I did hold true to my convictions, and I warned you all that this was coming. When will you all learn that you ought to hang on my every word? When I say something will happen, it will. Though I am quite pleased to see myself vindicated yet again.[/color]

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1295849473' post='2595944']
Ask any alliance leader in the game and they will tell you that they don't condone spying. Approach half of them with intel and they'll ask you please, sir, can I have some more? Just because someone says something doesn't make it true.
[/quote]

If someone comes to you unsolicited volunteering information, of course you will listen. And try to figure out how big a grain of salt to take it with, of course. And if it's information about someone you have a treaty with, you will have to go talk to them.

None of that makes you a spy, let alone a 'spymaster.'

[NoFish]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1295856411' post='2596255']
If someone comes to you unsolicited volunteering information, of course you will listen. And try to figure out how big a grain of salt to take it with, of course. And if it's information about someone you have a treaty with, you will have to go talk to them.

None of that makes you a spy, let alone a 'spymaster.'
[/quote]
All I'm saying is that the idea that just because Dajobo claimed he had no interest in spying doesn't make it the case and the argument that is does is simply hilarious.

[Heft]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295842625' post='2595413']
Well I thought we'd get somewhere, but you are still just ignoring anything contrary to your preconception. You'll just be added to the list of people I never bother directly addressing.
[/quote]
"I don't like what you're saying so I'm just going to plug my ears and ignore you."

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1295862919' post='2596350']
All I'm saying is that the idea that just because Dajobo claimed he had no interest in spying doesn't make it the case and the argument that is does is simply hilarious.
[/quote]

actually it makes it quite relevant since the biggest part of the CB centers around Dajobo having the intent to spy on VE. this has been proven to be blatantly false. he had no interest to spy on VE whatsoever and all you and others have done since then is point to a single line as the end all be all and ignore the damning evidence that shows he had no intention of becoming a spymaster nor spying period.

since you are not Dajobo, it is quite hilarious of you to state what he did or did not intend to do. especially since the only evidence available shows something contrary to what you state. but then again, since your boss was in on the set up, i doubt you will claim anything else.

[Kilkenny]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295791887' post='2593860']
It's like you guys don't even try to read. Right out of the DoW:

MHA 'aren't the enemy' and 'not worth spying on' – go spy on MK or VE instead. That is, Dajobo [i]sent the spy[/i] (Lennox/Chancy) to MK or VE. That is really the core of the CB, all this thread and RV's are about is getting conclusive proof that it really [i]was[/i] Dajobo doing that.

Edit: Kilkenny, one might argue that MK has a CB too, but the spy chose VE over MK of the two choices Dajobo gave him, so no spying on MK was ever actually done (at least by Lennox), so it isn't as strong as ours.
[/quote]


And how does that make Dajobo the Spymaster?? there was nothing in his statement that said "go and spy on VE or MK" There was a statement, in response to a question from a friend in a one on one conversation, that MK and VE are in the middle of the political scheme of things.

But, you seem to have forgotten this:

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1295661490' post='2590234']
Okay, I have to confess to being pretty pissed off to see R_V and others try and tar VE/Impero for the screenshot stuff for one simple reason – they did it [b]because I asked them to[/b]. Oh god Xiph set up NpO! No – exactly the opposite. That Lennox, under his rerolled name, handed them logs – while being an active VE member – of Dajabo suggesting he spy on them VE was fully prepared to roll them for that alone.

[/quote]

You were prepared to roll based solely on Lennox's questioning of Dajobo, Lennox's asking him for a suggestion for a nation name, not being given this info. Lennox was leading the whole conversation from the begining.....not being "sent out". I'm sorry but you don't run a spy/imformant network that way, you dictate stuff, you don't let them go floating free with no direction.

Also, Do you seriously intend for everyone to believe that in the space of what..a few hours, Lennox joined your alliance, found the public area of your forums so welcoming that after being masked in 4 minutes he turned on the Spymaster??? Really??? I mean you are saying that Dajobo went out, found someone to come back in, instructed him on everything (through ESP I guess) got him started (Remember he is sending out a spy, something he knows would get his alliance attacked if it comes out) and then didn't question his gaining important info after being in the alliance only 3 days. Every bit of that is unsupported by any evidence given by anyone involved in this.

It is all flimsy and circumstancial at best....soemthing that should have been dealt with diplomatically...something you didn't even try to do.