A lesson on set ups

[Earogema]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' timestamp='1295590850' post='2588606']
Friend you wound me.
Also, what did that guy ever do with Atlantis? Last I heard he just went around making threats at things with Pacifica's weight in TPF.
[/quote]
That's all I remember too. I mean granted if I knew about them, then they wouldn't be SUPER SECRET.

[SyndicatedINC]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295578242' post='2587586']I am the Bad for those that have a real idea of what I have done for many years on Bob you are aware most of my work is not for public disclosure. It also should not come as a surprise to very many that I have had a part in a large variety of black operations over the years. I have never been exposed nor has anyone who has ever worked for me.[/quote]

[img]http://www.fmlftw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/have-you-seen-him-28711-1290652837-41.jpg[/img]

Sorry I just couldn't resist, after reading this I kept waiting for someone somewhere in this thread to use a ninja meme. Had to be done mate, had to be done!



[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295578242' post='2587586']In conclusion if your going to set somebody up do it right. Doing it the VE way just makes you look like an idiot.[/quote]

[img]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1063/1089633990_0ffa5d933b.jpg?v=0[/img]

Spying, you're doing it wrong?

[The Plump Bump]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295578242' post='2587586']
I am the Bad for those that have a real idea of what I have done for many years on Bob you are aware most of my work is not for public disclosure. It also should not come as a surprise to very many that I have had a part in a large variety of black operations over the years. I have never been exposed nor has anyone who has ever worked for me. That is because their are smart ways to do things or stupid ways to do things. VE chose the stupid way. Lets look at where they made their mistakes.

VE allowed an outsider to set Polar up for them. An outsider that does not like them and that was just as likely setting them up. VE rushed into a war that is going to see both Polar and VE damaged and VE has come out looking like aggressive idiots. If VE was going to trust Lennox to set Polar up they should have been more cautious about it. Once Lennox sent the screen shots and Polar came to VE to let them know he had, VE should have backed out of the op and looked for another chance later. Instead VE's leadership foolishly panicked and went to war. Trusting Lennox was mistake number one, going to war when the set up went balls up was mistake number two.

Lets face it Polar has bad blood from the last couple of wars. If VE had set them up proper they would be basking in poplar opinion and not now have people lining up on the other side that would not have been their.

Trusting an outsider that does not like you and then rushing into a war with no idea what you are doing exposes some serious failures in VE leadership. They should have backed off when it was clear Polar was not going play along and instead expose the entire fiasco. VE then could have tried again later with a more trusted agent or have waited for another way to spark the conflict.

The question that has to be asked is why did VE allow this public face palm to happen? Did they some how think peoples dislike of Polar would make people blind to the fact that the CB was bogus and that they had poorly tried to set Polar up? Did they think they had more support then in reality they do? Lets face it this done correctly would have made Polar look bad and VE good. Instead the exact opposite has occurred. Who in VE's gov would allow such foolish choices to be made?

In conclusion if your going to set somebody up do it right. Doing it the VE way just makes you look like an idiot.
[/quote]

It's not all bad though, you got to look [i]really[/i] good on the forums. I'm pretty new to this game, but already I know who the smartest man on the planet is.

I think you'd really appreciate this, bff: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling

[Bryne Farrior]

Enough with the spelling and grammar call-outs. You're stupid if you can't find content in a (mildly) poorly proofread post.

That being said, the OP is crap, and also IC.

[The Plump Bump]

[quote name='Bryne Farrior' timestamp='1295593343' post='2588727']
Enough with the spelling and grammar call-outs. You're stupid if you can't find content in a (mildly) poorly proofread post.

That being said, the OP is crap, and also IC.
[/quote]


You're also stupid if you believe that somebody who teases form cannot appreciate content; although care should be taken to clarify what one means by the word [i]appreciate.[/i]

I admire your good intentions, Bryne. However, I would also say that if somebody wishes to make a public announcement about how unintelligent somebody else is and how smart they are themselves... Well then, said person most likely deserve ribbing for mental errors, wouldn't you say?

[Bryne Farrior]

[quote name='The Plump Bump' timestamp='1295593819' post='2588738']
You're also stupid if you believe that somebody who teases form cannot appreciate content; although care should be taken to clarify what one means by the word [i]appreciate.[/i]
[/quote]

What the hell are you on about? Trying to look [i]really[/i] good on the forums?

Your prior post contained some vague comment that was totally unrelated to the content of the topic, and then a jab at his lack of spelling/grammar. My reply was more of a disclaimer to show that I thought BigBad's post was crap, not because of its ravaging of the English language (which others besides you were quick to point out), but because of its content. Now admittedly my reply was vague, but anyone who peers over to my AA can see why I feel that way, and I don't think they feel like reading why again for the 500th time.

[der_ko]

This thread has convinced me VE did set up Polar and I will from now on post accordingly.

[Anu Drake]

Lol, TBB. I've exposed myself to you on plenty of occasions. Wait, different discussion. Yes, we did this stuff better back in the day...

/get off my lawn

[jerdge]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295578242' post='2587586']OP[/quote]
Do you mean that Lennox decided to set Polaris up and VE "just" decided to exploit the occasion - but they did it poorly - or that VE decided to use Lennox to set Polaris up - but the set up was poorly executed?

Am I correct in identifying the key factors (according to you) of VE's "foolishness" (=alleged mishandling), as follows?

[list=1][*]VE took advantage/used an outsider - vs - they should have sent a friend of theirs/other trustworthy individual/group.
[*]VE rushed into war (when Polaris went to them on their own accord to settle the issue) - vs - VE should have backed out of the operation, to wait for a better moment.[/list]

Furthermore, I understood that your conclusion is that VE incurred in a PR fiasco because of their mishandling of this situation. Which of the following (one or more than one of them) is/are the "public" you're implying/talking of?

[list][*]CN Forums Populace (alias Peanut Gallery(tm), OWF crowd etc.).
[*]CN General Player Base.
[*]CN Elite Players (alliances' leaders/opinion makers).
[*]VE Allies.
[*]Parties Neutral towards the specific rivalry (i.e. groups that, before this situation, wouldn't have necessarily sided with either of the two belligerents).
[*]Other (please specify).[/list]

Again, I understood that you think that VE started a conflict with a smaller advantage (compared to what they could have had) because of their mishandling of the situation. Is it correct that this is your main conclusion, and the most relevant material aspect you observed? Or am I missing something?

Finally, wouldn't your analysis be more complete if you discussed the benefits for VE of waiting for another occasion, weighted against the possibility that a better occasion could have never shown up - of course with reference to the current politic/strategic situation in CN's power clusters?


[size="1"][[b]Obligatory edit:[/b] thanks for your consideration of my questions! ][/size]

Edited January 21, 2011 by jerdge

[shahenshah]

Welp! VE, you need a lesson in Setups! ..I can think of only one other alliance that can help you with that...oh wait.

Edit:

[quote name='der_ko' timestamp='1295615748' post='2589062']
This thread has convinced me VE did set up Polar and I will from now on post accordingly.
[/quote]

This made me chuckle.

Edited January 21, 2011 by shahenshah

[erikz]

So then the question remains TBB - where is your evidence and how the hell can I believe your curriculum vitae when its full of 'off the record stuff"?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1295411146' post='2582729']
I sat in front of my computer howling with laughter at how many people were overcome by frothy nerd rage. [b]Why? Because within a week of returning and with minimal effort, I helped start a war. (Serious props to Impero for having the balls to take care of business, I'm sure most of you wouldn't have the courage he has).[/b]

That brings up my next point, that most of you are cowards. This is a game. Take a risk once in a while and try to take someone down. If you fail, whats the worst that can happen? The numbers on your screen change lol.
[/quote]

Well this certainly looks pretty damning.

However, considering the magnitude of the failure from VE, they've lost far more than just numbers. Then again - one could argue they've had nothing but numbers to lose since Karma.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1295624688' post='2589168']
However, considering the magnitude of the failure from VE, they've lost far more than just numbers. Then again - one could argue they've had nothing but numbers to lose since Karma.
[/quote]
And character. VE has gone from an alliance with some reality issues (incongruent internal values and foreign policy, "never disbanding") but that most people respected as a virtuous organization stuck in a dog-eat-dog world to an organization bent on power trips, stepping all over people, and general chaos with rapidly disappearing public support outside of their shiny new like-minded friends. They finally broke the leash in the Karma War, and now rather than realize the promise of a post-Karma vibrant world, they are determined to recreate the ony thing their masters taught them, unipolar domination.
The change in VE can pretty much be attributed to the change in leadership; Ardus and his incarnations were realpolitikers, VE's position made him and VE resourceful and nimble. By contrast, Lord Protector I-used-to-stuff-people-like-you-in-lockers Impero wouldn't know smooth if his bros shaved his legs while he was passed out drunk on the frathouse floor. He's a blustering idiot with one tool in his box, a mallet, and he doesn't know when to leave it in the toolbox.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Schattenmann

[ChairmanHal]

Ok, Black Ops...I'll fore go listing my credentials if you don't mind.

If I had run this one I would have used someone getting ready to exit stage right and reroll, not someone who planned to stick around my alliance after the op is over. Exposes you to allegations that you entrapped the target, not good for PR and later recruiting of allies. Conversely, if I had been NpO and I had really wanted to run a spy op to find out how things were going in VE, I would have used a former VE member within my alliance that the VE forum mods forgot to remask. No messy talking a VE member into betraying his alliance, no need to worry about recruiting a re-roll who might go native on me.

Thing to keep in mind though is that VE's operation was [i]successful[/i]. People who are normally allied with VE have not shyed away from supporting them and they got their war, which was the whole purpose of recruiting someone to be a double agent in the first place. As previously mentioned, it would have achieved outstanding success had it not been so easy to connect the dots regarding this being a trap.

FYI: Actually I'm not certain that VE necessarily wanted to simply curbstomp NpO, which if you want to don your tinfoil hat, leads you to conclude that not only was NpO set up, but those doing the set up wanted a "good brawl" (thus a more even fight) instead. This would explain why alliances like MK, GOONS, and Umbrella haven't dogpiled Polaris. Of course that also implies that multiple alliances were in on the whole black op, not just VE. Plausible, but as I say, requires a much larger conspiracy and shiny hat.

Oh and of course TBB doesn't have any evidence...not unless VE are a pack of idiots. First rule of Black Ops: never leave a paper trail, electronic or otherwise.

[JBone]

[quote name='Katsumi' timestamp='1295587456' post='2588272']
Remember Atlantis?
[/quote]
I LOLed.

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1295591043' post='2588625']
Please go on.
[/quote]
There were no [i]Ops[/i] against Atlantis, black or otherwise.

It was more akin to a cat playing with a three legged mouse.

It was so easy to get a rise out of them.

Harmless playful banter at most, certainly nothing clandestine.

Many in TPF actually were fond of them and were incredibly confused when they up and [i]sunk[/i] themselves.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='The Plump Bump' timestamp='1295593819' post='2588738']
You're also stupid if you believe that somebody who teases form cannot appreciate content; although care should be taken to clarify what one means by the word [i]appreciate.[/i]

I admire your good intentions, Bryne. However, I would also say that if somebody wishes to make a public announcement about how unintelligent somebody else is and how smart they are themselves... Well then, said person most likely deserve ribbing for mental errors, wouldn't you say?
[/quote]

i dont think he was trying to say his grammar is better than ve's.. Any idiot can type with perfect grammar. its the idiots who think perfect grammar = perfect intelligence

[The Plump Bump]

[quote name='Bryne Farrior' timestamp='1295597457' post='2588847']
What the hell are you on about? Trying to look [i]really[/i] good on the forums?

Your prior post contained some vague comment that was totally unrelated to the content of the topic, and then a jab at his lack of spelling/grammar. My reply was more of a disclaimer to show that I thought BigBad's post was crap, not because of its ravaging of the English language (which others besides you were quick to point out), but because of its content. Now admittedly my reply was vague, but anyone who peers over to my AA can see why I feel that way, and I don't think they feel like reading why again for the 500th time.
[/quote]

I don't need to try, looking good is a way of life.

I fully admit that I offered no content whatsoever other than taking a jab at The Big Bad: it was fun, too.


[quote name='Roi Loup' timestamp='1295630068' post='2589266']
i dont think he was trying to say his grammar is better than ve's.. Any idiot can type with perfect grammar. its the idiots who think perfect grammar = perfect intelligence
[/quote]

I like you, Mr. Loup.

[New Frontier]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295581566' post='2587689']
I don't trust the opinion of someone that doesn't know when to use their/there, when to use commas, apostrophes, and makes an IRC channel dedicated to himself.

Tedd.
[/quote]
Most people like to take opinions for what they are, rather than attacking the syntax of the speaker (or typer in this case, I suppose). I guess that's a moral lesson they don't teach you until you're out of middle school though.

[Azaghul]

Yea I would say it was a bad "set up", the reason being that it wasn't a "set up" at all.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1295662351' post='2590298']
Most people like to take opinions for what they are, rather than attacking the syntax of the speaker (or typer in this case, I suppose). I guess that's a moral lesson they don't teach you until you're out of middle school though.
[/quote]


I love pointing out hypocrisy

"You suck at this"
"You suck for saying he sucks"

[Micheal Malone]

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1295662351' post='2590298']
Most people like to take opinions for what they are, rather than attacking the syntax of the speaker (or typer in this case, I suppose). I guess that's a moral lesson they don't teach you until you're out of middle school though.
[/quote]

Clearly personal insults are on a much higher scale of moral lesson than grammatical attack?

Edit:

On Topic, TBB, I do believe what is considered a "successful setup" depends totally upon what was desired. If pure war, and a fairly even one at the last numbers I've seen, was all that was desired I'd consider this a success.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Micheal Malone

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1295685818' post='2591595'] I do believe what is considered a "successful setup" depends totally upon what was desired. If pure war, and a fairly even one at the last numbers I've seen, was all that was desired I'd consider this a success.
[/quote]


I have definitely been more involved, for better or for worse, and have had loads of fun It's what CN is about, after all.

[NoFish]

VE should have just dug up some OOC dirt on Polar's members and rolled them for that instead, amirite?

[leprecon]

Hey look, another post by Schattenmann.
I wonder what kind of well informed reasoning he will put forth.

[quote]By contrast, Lord Protector I-used-to-stuff-people-like-you-in-lockers Impero wouldn't know smooth if his bros shaved his legs while he was passed out drunk on the frathouse floor. He's a blustering idiot with one tool in his box, a mallet, and he doesn't know when to leave it in the toolbox. [/quote]

You make a persuasive argument. This helpful contribution really convinced me of your position. Thanks for the constructive dialogue.

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295678132' post='2591386']
I love pointing out hypocrisy

"You suck at this"
"You suck for saying he sucks"
[/quote]
You made enough of a fool of yourself in the propaganda thread, you really should step out and let the big boys play.


[quote name='leprecon' timestamp='1295706605' post='2591842']
Hey look, another post by Schattenmann.
I wonder what kind of well informed reasoning he will put forth.



You make a persuasive argument. This helpful contribution really convinced me of your position. Thanks for the constructive dialogue.
[/quote]

Constructive? No. But he was right. Impero has never been anything less than brute. Solaris, at least, can pass off for intelligent. But those words paint an accurate picture of Impero.