Ragnarok declaration of war

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295536226' post='2586356']
You chose the ally that involved itself with the saboteur, and not the ally at the receiving end of his potentially damaging actions?

Furthermore, instead of riding united with your blocmates, those who (ostensibly) take precedence over all other allies (and those that have been with you through thick and through thin), you ride in the opposite direction?

All in all, poor showing, RoK.

edit: typo
[/quote]

[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=441163]VE seems to be presently involved with the saboteur.[/url]

Also, more with this choosing treaties stuff, obviously the NpO MDoAP was activated, whereas SuperFriends treaty has not been 'technically' activated yet. Unless its written in the treaty itself, nowhere is it written in stone that a bloc takes precedence over an individual treaty. Whether it takes prcedence or not depends on the unity of the particular bloc.

Edited January 20, 2011 by memoryproblems

[NoFish]

[quote name='Yukon Don' timestamp='1295536386' post='2586358']
We chose the ally who was in defense...

Blocmates...you mean the ones who took our notification of intent to declare and figured out how to jump in on the other side to avoid being stuck defending us?

Those Blocmates.... pfft
[/quote]
I honestly cannot believe I am hearing this from the Vice Chancellor of Ragnarok. I hope I am missing some sort of poorly worded sarcasm here.

[Dubsy]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295536226' post='2586356']
You chose the ally that involved itself with the saboteur, and not the ally at the receiving end of his potentially damaging actions?

Furthermore, instead of riding united with your blocmates, those who (ostensibly) take precedence over all other allies (and those that have been with you through thick and through thin), you ride in the opposite direction?

All in all, poor showing, RoK.

edit: typo
[/quote]

at this point the whole 'saboteur' thing is literally grasping for straws.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Yukon Don' timestamp='1295536386' post='2586358']
We chose the ally who was in defense...

Blocmates...you mean the ones who took our notification of intent to declare and figured out how to jump in on the other side to avoid being stuck defending us?

Those Blocmates.... pfft
[/quote]

I think there is some communication gap here. Calm down man. I may not be SF no more but i sure as hell cant believe it went down like that.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Dubsy' timestamp='1295536887' post='2586376']
at this point the whole 'saboteur' thing is literally grasping for straws.
[/quote]

You keep telling yourself that.

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1295536646' post='2586368']
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=441163]VE seems to be presently involved with the saboteur.[/url]

Also, more with this choosing treaties stuff, obviously the NpO MDoAP was activated, whereas SuperFriends treaty has not been 'technically' activated yet. Unless its written in the treaty itself, nowhere is it written in stone that a bloc takes precedence over an individual treaty. Whether it takes prcedence or not depends on the unity of the particular bloc.
[/quote]

Clever, but we both know the level of involvement is drastically different.

And generally MDAPs (by their very nature) take precedence over MDoAPs was my point.

[Dubsy]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295537195' post='2586386']
You keep telling yourself that.
[/quote]

I don't have to tell myself anything. I'm not involved in this conflict. I could say the reverse for you, but im not into this tit-for-tat OWF thing.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Dubsy

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Dubsy' timestamp='1295537373' post='2586392']
I don't have to tell myself anything.
[/quote]

You don't have to tell me anything either, but that doesn't stop you, does it?

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295537195' post='2586386']
And generally MDAPs (by their very nature) take precedence over MDoAPs was my point.
[/quote]

So what should they have done, ignore the a present activation of a MDoAP to wait a few days for an activation of an MADP?

If they are presented with a need to obligate both [u]at the same time[/u], then yeah, a MADP would probably take precedence, however they were already obligated to honor the Polaris MDoAP, somebody mentioned earlier that the SF text required a vote to activate the mutual aggression clause, without that, no member of SF has been attacked yet, so until that vote occurred or another member of SF was declared upon, the SF treaty was not activated, whereas they already had an obligation to NpO.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295537430' post='2586394']
You don't have to tell me anything either, but that doesn't stop you, does it?
[/quote]

I think you need some ointment.

[img]http://hemorrhoidcares.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Preparation-H-suppositories.jpg[/img]

Ragnarok did what any respectable alliance would do. They honored a treaty request and told their allies in advance. They didn't sit around and wait for a better offer as you seem to be implying they should have.

But hey...where exactly is GOONS DoW? I mean, you should be rolling with your friends, right? Oh sorry, your "condition" probably prevents that, along with most sitting positions I would imagine.

[Chickenzilla]

For shame Rok for shame.

[omfghi2u2]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295535079' post='2586330']
His spying on us, lacked malicious intent and effect. That counts for something.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.insomnia.gr/uploads/1290642738/gallery_63654_40_1180.gif[/img]

You are kidding right?

-omfg

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1295537088' post='2586381']
I think there is some communication gap here. Calm down man. I may not be SF no more but i sure as hell cant believe it went down like that.
[/quote]


People when presented with 2 different arguments, when faced with having to choose and side with one, will side with the side they believe will be dominant. Then use the arguments coupled with there fellow supporters joining together to form what is commonly called mob mentality where the most brutal, unjust, and dishonorable actions can take place guilt free. The lack of guilt is due to the group circulating there idea's so much and agreeing with each other so much even the most blatant falsehoods look like reality.

bottom line it is a survival mechanism, that will reflect forever in most human action regardless of the scene.


and, simply put just consider what SF did with RoK like peer pressure. Put them in a position with little to no back up, and restrict there movement... hope they buckle to the pressure and decide to go with the flow like the rest of SF.

[Voytek]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295538078' post='2586415']
I think you need some ointment.

[img]http://hemorrhoidcares.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Preparation-H-suppositories.jpg[/img]

Ragnarok did what any respectable alliance would do. They honored a treaty request and told their allies in advance. They didn't sit around and wait for a better offer as you seem to be implying they should have.

But hey...where exactly is GOONS DoW? I mean, you should be rolling with your friends, right? Oh sorry, your "condition" probably prevents that, along with most sitting positions I would imagine.
[/quote]
You have a strange fascination with dealing out insults that have to do with butts. Just saying.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Voytek

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1295538335' post='2586421']
People when presented with 2 different arguments, when faced with having to choose and side with one, will side with the side they believe will be dominant. Then use the arguments coupled with there fellow supporters joining together to form what is commonly called mob mentality where the most brutal, unjust, and dishonorable actions can take place guilt free. The lack of guilt is due to the group circulating there idea's so much and agreeing with each other so much even the most blatant falsehoods look like reality.

bottom line it is a survival mechanism, that will reflect forever in most human action regardless of the scene.


and, simply put just consider what SF did with RoK like peer pressure. Put them in a position with little to no back up, and restrict there movement... hope they buckle to the pressure and decide to go with the flow like the rest of SF.
[/quote]

uhh, no. Thats not SF. it is not what SF has been, it is not what it is, and i find it hard to imagine it being this way in the days to come. If you think it is easy to get any one of those that makeup SF simply go along with something against their will, you got a few million thinks coming. What is more? Each of them knows this, and relishes this.

[memoryproblems]

I find it interesting how so many people are so critical of Ragnarok's decision when VE pushed them right to it.

I think it would be accurate to say that this is a war that they didn't want to see. VE actively sought this war, and they jumped at the first oppertunity they got without even a modest attempt at diplomacy. You act as if Ragnarok owes you something, after you spend some time looking for a reason to roll their direct ally (who was obviously a dear ally), and then proceeding declaring without an attempt at diplomacy once you find your opportunity.

I don't see how VE has any room to criticize Ragnarok in this situation, because its VE pushed them to this, and its obvious that VE proceeded with a reckless disrespect towards Ragnarok in their pursuit of this war and their clear failure to even attempt diplomacy. Seriously, what did you expect?

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295537195' post='2586386']
You keep telling yourself that.



Clever, but we both know the level of involvement is drastically different.

And generally MDAPs (by their very nature) take precedence over MDoAPs was my point.
[/quote]

I think it's been hashed out by now that the SuperFriends treaty has to be activated as a group, first of all, that RoK responded to a direct attack on their treaty partners rather than surfing on top of aggression clauses. What exactly did you think they were going to do? Try to stop 'bandwagoners' and stay out?

[SirWilliam]

ChairmanHal, I take you about as seriously as most others do. So you won't be getting much more of a response from me than that.

Edited January 20, 2011 by SirWilliam

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295538078' post='2586415']
I think you need some ointment.

[img]http://hemorrhoidcares.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Preparation-H-suppositories.jpg[/img]

Ragnarok did what any respectable alliance would do. They honored a treaty request and told their allies in advance. They didn't sit around and wait for a better offer as you seem to be implying they should have.

But hey...where exactly is GOONS DoW? I mean, you should be rolling with your friends, right? Oh sorry, your "condition" probably prevents that, along with most sitting positions I would imagine.
[/quote]What obligation or tactical advantage would GOONS be serving by entering today?

[ooc:] Though once again, Valhalla arrives with homophobic ooc attacks

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1295538633' post='2586425']
uhh, no. Thats not SF. it is not what SF has been, it is not what it is, and i find it hard to imagine it being this way in the days to come. If you think it is easy to get any one of those that makeup SF simply go along with something against their will, you got a few million thinks coming. What is more? Each of them knows this, and relishes this.
[/quote]



I am not saying it is against there will at all... in no way, shape or form.


I am suggesting that the pressure put on RoK is due to the other members wishing to side with the side that has the most pixels. Fully of there own will, they choose the easiest way to survive without risk of losing much if any power.


edited in - as said before the morality and the evidence of the issue is lost in the constant stream of self approval, and manufactured justifications for the war within certain social circles of SF and PB.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Alexander The Second

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Alexander The Second' timestamp='1295538956' post='2586433']
~snip~
[/quote]

Will discuss this with you elsewhere. As far as this announcement is concerned, yeah, it is an honor to have you by our side Ragnarok.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1295510064' post='2585902']
What should Rok have done? Prioritize treaties?
[/quote]

Been neutral?

Doesn't seem too difficult to me!

[quote]You people are reading too much into this. One treaty partner attacked another one of our treaty partners, and that's fine. However there are two other alliances that attacked our allies, and that isn't fine. See how simple it is? [/quote]

The problem is that your treaty partner that caused this war is pretty big! Much larger than VE. So in order to defend ourselves properly, we brought a few friends along. It really wasn't too ridiculous of a thing to do.

If you're seriously asserting we should walk into a tough or possibly even losing war that *POLAR* caused, you're insane. Why should we do that for them in a conflict that THEY caused?

If this were a smaller alliance, then no, we probably wouldn't have called in allies on your treaty partner. But in this case, it was a tactical necessity.

NpO's size, and the tactical need to bring in allies to effectively neutralize them, shouldn't be enough to pull RoK onto NpO's side in this.

[quote]True but that doesn't really answer the question. Hoo left claiming that he wanted to honour the treaty he signed, why would he join NpO to do that if RoK were always going to honour it? [/quote]

The same reason others left. No matter what RoK says here for PR, they weren't going to roll, originally.

[quote]Well, choosing between allies is always hard. I know this was coming tho when you informed Polaris about VE's intentions. You couldn't possibly stick with VE after that. [/quote]

That was treaty mandated, I'm sure. Can't really fault them for that one.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Penkala

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1295539342' post='2586442']
Will discuss this with you elsewhere. As far as this announcement is concerned, yeah, it is an honor to have you by our side Ragnarok.
[/quote]


for sure man, sorry if it offended ya in anyway bro.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1295539609' post='2586451']
Been neutral?

Doesn't seem too difficult to me!
[/quote]


I demand every insult from EVERY PERSON that called out the UPN on our BS during TOP/CnG now flame and pass the neutrality banner to VE and crew.


The torch has been passed, have fun with it and your concepts of neutrality.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Alexander The Second

[Karl I]

[quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1295502329' post='2585319']
[b]So RoK and the rest of SF on two different sides? This will end well,[/b]

anyways best of luck RoK!
[/quote]

my thoughts exactly...

[Acca Dacca]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1295539609' post='2586451']
Been neutral?

Doesn't seem too difficult to me!
[/quote]

A nonallied alliance declared on an ally. Last time we went neutral, it was an ally on ally affair where we are asked to sit out by one side.

[mattski133]

Two things.

1) After 20 some pages there's nothing addressing why Hoo, the most recognizable face of Ragnarok for years, left to fight with NpO under the banner of "RoK is not going to help them". Either that was some misdirection and RoK had been planning to go in since it started or Ragnarok had decided to stay out, and Hoo legitmately left in disgust. I don't expect an answer but I like to speculate.

From observation it looks like SuperFriends is taking the stance that no one knew what anyone was doing; like during the last three days not a single conversation was held regarding this war until a day ago when RoK said, welp, we're gonna help NpO. Common sense is saying you guys were heatedly discussing what to do (staying out) and then fractured in opposite directions when Hoo left after hearing this, with R&R and GOD becoming indignant when RoK let them know they'd be following him. R&R and GOD DoW in support of FOK/iFOK (which was probably what those two had been advocating all along), "without letting RoK know". Which sort of suggests they were upset RoK picked Polar over them.

Choosing PC instead of VE makes no difference, btw. VE still suffers from that decision. All of Superfriends does, really.

My point: I'm not sure there is one. Just pretty sure we're witnessing globe-changing events unfold.

2) As for the spying, NpO members and allies, and noted forum goer's, appear to be suggesting that it was a 'set up' or a 'stretch'. An NpO government official guided a spy into an alliance known to have past conflict with NpO, then accepted screenshots of their military practices, set up or not. You don't want to be accused of spying, tell Lennox to pound sand the minute he shows up looking to spy for you. Or if he comes back with information from one of the alliances you mentioned, you say hang on, open a query with that government, briskly say Lennox has stolen information and is peddling it around, and that you want no part it in. Then grab a screenshot of that.

Whatever you do don't say you tried to open the links, say that they didn't work, and that you'll need them reposted for better viewing. Then, don't say you could probably handle yourself against them now that you've seen the SS's. I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

Conclusion:

RoK, NpO clearly spied on your buddies, and you're supporting this, and leaving your real friends behind for whatever reason. If you don't like that VE set them up there are ways to handle that. Piling into PC was probably not the best way, but maybe it fits more with your current FA strategy. Regardless, well, I'll just say it, whoops.