Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373327' post='2581598']
It's not worth asking, because if the drug dealer is a cop and you buy the product, you're still in the wrong. There's a difference between a bust and entrapment. Dajobo suggested VE.
[/quote]
Clearly Dajobo, VE, and Lennox worked together! Mystery Solved! [img]http://cur.cursors-4u.net/smilies/images1/smi8.gif[/img]

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373327' post='2581598']It's not worth asking, because if the drug dealer is a cop and you buy the product, you're still in the wrong. There's a difference between a bust and entrapment.[/quote]
Is it still a bust if the cop hands the drugs over for free to the target and then arrests him for possession?

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373327' post='2581598']He also proceeded to not be worried about having received spied information, [b]or warn or talk to VE about it.[/b][/quote]
I feel I've said this before, but [b]he tried[/b].
Unfortunately for him, by this time Impero had heard the story from Lennox and decided that it would be war, no buts.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1295373528' post='2581600']NpO is at war now because its 2nd in command helped orchestrate a spy infiltrating VE. OV was put to war because established spies gave someone unassociated screenshots. If you can not see that the second example falls short of the first, then it is your comprehension at issue, not mine. Yes, Dajobo accepted screenshots, but did so as a part of a structured spy infiltration and continued operation.[/quote]
There's a big difference between "orchestrating a spy ring" and casually suggesting that someone should spy on VE or MK if they wanted something interesting.
In addition, Lennox had made it clear that he was going to spy regardless of what Dajobo said (MHA being his original stated target), so Dajobo didn't exactly [b]establish[/b] the action of spying.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373640' post='2581602']
Is it still a bust if the cop hands the drugs over for free to the target and then arrests him for possession?
[/quote]
Don't pretend that's what happened. Dajobo asked for the images to be rehosted so he could see them, and then casually discussed the contents of them. The information was not thrust on him in a way that he could not deny it. He took it, opened it, tried it, and said it was pretty good.

Not only that, it was still Dajobo's suggestion that Lennox go to VE. There's no possible way VE could've sent Lennox to talk to Dajobo knowing that Dajobo would suggest he spy on VE instead of MHA. Unless Impero and company have psychic powers.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Cairna' timestamp='1295372913' post='2581591']
It doesn't matter. Then NpO's allies have betrayed them and are just as culpable.




Because diplomacy isn't a precedent in cases like these?

Hell. If it had been FAN at least it would have made sense.

My main problem with VE is the fact that these guys just seem to have no personality. No character. Can't stick to a damn thing.

Same goes for Sparta, though. At least the orders, and even MHA, stay the course in their dealings.
[/quote]


Your buddies like to create enemies for nothing (like offending my aa when this was not the topic) then you whine an whine when people don't care about diplomacy...

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373867' post='2581605']Don't pretend that's what happened. Dajobo asked for the images to be rehosted so he could see them, and then casually discussed the contents of them. The information was not thrust on him in a way that he could not deny it. He took it, opened it, tried it, and said it was pretty good.[/quote]
You do realise that before he was actually able to load the images (ie. until they were re-hosted), he wouldn't have been able to know what was in them.
That's like the cop handing him a sealed envelope and then him asking for another one because he can't get the first envelope open.
Doesn't at all mean he knew what was [b]in[/b] the envelope.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373867' post='2581605']Not only that, it was still Dajobo's suggestion that Lennox go to VE.[/quote]
Not denying this. Dajobo was pretty silly here, but VE moved much too quickly (and brashly) for it to be only about this.
Nevermind the fact that Dajobo did actually go to VE to tell them the truth about what happened, only to be told to piss off.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1295373528' post='2581600']
If at any one time Dajobo stopped and said "hmm, I should probably not get involved with this and contact VE so they know what is up, that a spy is in their alliance because we had a talk about how best to go about doing it, and I mentioned VE/MK as well as gave some advice", then there wouldn't be a war right now, and the same people who hate us for causing this war will hate us for not growing a pair and causing this war, so I'm not too worried. [b]Sure, Dajobo may have gotten a ZI, there could have been token reps, but here we would be again, people pissed about nothing to do.[/b]
[/quote]
So the real reason is you're bored. Why not come out and admit it?

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295372075' post='2581572']
I don't understand why this is a question worth asking.
[/quote]

If it was a trap and there is proof, then NpO's friends may decide to come out and play...and their friends...and their friends. Blow this up into really cool 'plosion.

[quote name='Cairna' timestamp='1295372236' post='2581576']
This will only need to endless tip-toeing around to avoid a war. People need to start playing the political game. Just starting a war using you're bored as an excuse does NOT make the game more fun. I'm surprised you don't share that view, Hal. [/quote]

[i]OOC: I come from a wargamer and RPG background. This game is at its best when there's a nice balance of action and politics (both here and in the IRC backrooms). There have been some very notable wars that have been fought here that were the results of a ton of playing the political game...the Unjust War and the Karma War comes to mind. But then there have been wars that were almost purely the result of boredom...the Woodstock Massacre for example. Whatever the real cause of a war OOC, action helps keep this game healthy as much as politics and when we get too mired in playing "United Nations" its time for a good shooting match.[/i]

[quote]I don't care that VE started the war. I care that they did so maliciously, and any ally of the NpO that feels they've been put in a tough situation in which they have to pick should know that they were put there maliciously.[/quote]

I would encourage any and all of NpO's allies to keep their word...assuming that treaties are given these days as their word and their bond and aren't just fancy toilet paper.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373985' post='2581609']
You do realise that before he was actually able to load the images (ie. until they were re-hosted), he wouldn't have been able to know what was in them.
That's like the cop handing him a sealed envelope and then him asking for another one because he can't get the first envelope open.[/quote]
That's a completely absurd suggestion. Their entire previous conversation was about spying on VE, and then when images are sent he somehow can't put together that they're the spy information he pretty much requested? Even if true, he went on to not be surprised or alarmed and discussed the information normally.

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373985' post='2581609']Not denying this. Dajobo was pretty silly here, but VE moved much too quickly (and brashly) for it to be only about this.
[/quote]
They moved quick because NpO was hitting peace mode. They intended to wait much longer.

[Cairna]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295373874' post='2581606']
Your buddies like to create enemies for nothing (like offending my aa when this was not the topic) then you whine an whine when people don't care about diplomacy...
[/quote]

What's your point? And what buddies of mine have been creating enemies for nothing?

And I didn't offend your AA, I insulted it. And as for whining, I haven't been doing any. Let's not go off-topic though. You don't seem like you'd be able to keep up with both.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295374129' post='2581615']That's a completely absurd suggestion. Their entire previous conversation was about spying on VE, and then when images are sent he somehow can't put together that they're the spy information he pretty much requested? Even if true, he went on to not be surprised or alarmed and discussed the information normally.[/quote]
How much time elapsed between the two conversations?
Also, it [b]is[/b] possible to forget your previous conversation with someone, especially if you're a busy person. I do it quite often.

Edit: In any case, the hour grows late and so I to my bedchamber must retire. Fare thee well, ye all. No hard feelings against most of you.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295374127' post='2581614']
If it was a trap and there is proof, then NpO's friends may decide to come out and play...and their friends...and their friends. Blow this up into really cool 'plosion.
[/quote]
VE please admit it was a trap

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295374129' post='2581615']
They moved quick because NpO was hitting peace mode. They intended to wait much longer.
[/quote]
Hahahahaha. What does peace mode matter unless there's no intention of peaceful resolution? "Oh, well we [i]were[/i] going to attack you next week, but now that you're wise to the situation, we're attacking you now."

[Cairna]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295374127' post='2581614']

[i]OOC: I come from a wargamer and RPG background. This game is at its best when there's a nice balance of action and politics (both here and in the IRC backrooms). There have been some very notable wars that have been fought here that were the results of a ton of playing the political game...the Unjust War and the Karma War comes to mind. But then there have been wars that were almost purely the result of boredom...the Woodstock Massacre for example. Whatever the real cause of a war OOC, action helps keep this game healthy as much as politics and when we get too mired in playing "United Nations" its time for a good shooting match.[/i]


[/quote]

[i]OOC: My issue isn't that war is being caused out of boredom. My issue is that there is no attempt to hide it. If you're going to start a war, you need to be able to defend it. Otherwise it just [b]proves[/b] in a really unfortunate way that not a single one of the top alliance seem to care about keeping up any semblance of politics.

They can use whatever argument they want so long as it remains IC and defends their position. Right now most of them just keep backtracking and saying that we'd complain about the boredom if they didn't. They made a bad move and it's unfortunate that nobody seems to care enough about actually [b]playing[/b] the political part of the game to take offense.[/i]

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295374436' post='2581619']
Hahahahaha. What does peace mode matter unless there's no intention of peaceful resolution? "Oh, well we [i]were[/i] going to attack you next week, but now that you're wise to the situation, we're attacking you now."
[/quote]

If NpO entirely hits peace mode they give themselves in the upper hand if it were to come to blows, and pretty much force a token rep sort of situation.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1295374721' post='2581626']
If NpO entirely hits peace mode they give themselves in the upper hand if it were to come to blows, and pretty much force a token rep sort of situation.
[/quote]
What "if"? You attacked them early because you were afraid you weren't going to be able to attack them when you actually wanted to.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295374436' post='2581619']
Hahahahaha. What does peace mode matter unless there's no intention of peaceful resolution? "Oh, well we [i]were[/i] going to attack you next week, but now that you're wise to the situation, we're attacking you now."
[/quote]
It probably has something to do with NpO knowing they did something wrong and trying to prevent getting attacked for it. If you think you're in the right it's weird to hit peace mode before discussions are even that old, while shouting "I'm not going to bother discussing anything with you."

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1295374966' post='2581628']
What "if"? You attacked them early because you were afraid you weren't going to be able to attack them when you actually wanted to.
[/quote]
They wanted to force our hand, and force our hand they did.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373327' post='2581598']
It's not worth asking, because if the drug dealer is a cop and you buy the product, you're still in the wrong.
[/quote]


[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373640' post='2581602']
Is it still a bust if the cop hands the drugs over for free to the target and then arrests him for possession?
[/quote]


[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295373867' post='2581605']
Don't pretend that's what happened. Dajobo asked for the images to be rehosted so he could see them, and then casually discussed the contents of them. The information was not thrust on him in a way that he could not deny it. He took it, opened it, tried it, and said it was pretty good.
[/quote]

Well if the drug dealer is a cop (lennox) went upto someone and offered to sell them drugs (starts the convo with Dajobo and says he is going to spy on someone then inbox's screenshots (which you cant stop from receiving)) then arrests the person and gives evidence to the court (gives logs and screenshots to VE) then that is entrapment.

It isnt like Dajobo went to lennox and said could you go make a nation and spy on this or that alliance. Lennox came to him.

Still Dajobo made a mistake.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1295374999' post='2581632']
They wanted to force our hand, and force our hand they did.
[/quote]

You are a liar.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Cairna' timestamp='1295374257' post='2581616']
What's your point? And what buddies of mine have been creating enemies for nothing?

And I didn't offend your AA, I insulted it. And as for whining, I haven't been doing any. Let's not go off-topic though. You don't seem like you'd be able to keep up with both.
[/quote]


I agreed with most of your post. I added that NpO should not expect leniency from an AA that hate them. You chose to "insult" my AA out of the blue.

This is a good example of stupid behavior that only serves you to create enemies.

You are really naive in expecting leniency and diplomacy from people that hate you. If am in a position to decide whether to pursuit a diplomatic solution against an alliance that had "insulted" me in the past you can be sure that I would rather go to war.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295374990' post='2581631']
It probably has something to do with NpO knowing they did something wrong and trying to prevent getting attacked for it. If you think you're in the right it's weird to hit peace mode before discussions are even that old, while shouting "I'm not going to bother discussing anything with you."
[/quote]
NpO did so cover there ass, that I strolled to a friend of my on IRC told him he was at war and he was like " ", and until this day he still isn't attacked. For crying out loud there was a VE member in that channel to.

Edited January 18, 2011 by xoindotnler

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295374990' post='2581631']
It probably has something to do with NpO knowing they did something wrong and trying to prevent getting attacked for it. If you think you're in the right it's weird to hit peace mode before discussions are even that old, while shouting "I'm not going to bother discussing anything with you."
[/quote]
Or maybe it has something to do with VE !@#$ting on whenever any attempt to talk to Polaris was put aside because as Impero said "i have the truth already". Don't try and say VE really tried to settle the situation. And btw, alliances have sent nations to peace mode mostly every time when a war is about to take place. It's been used for years.

Either way:

o/ War

Edited January 18, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[xoindotnler]

-double toast-

Edited January 18, 2011 by xoindotnler

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1295375103' post='2581637']
You are a liar.
[/quote]
Either they wanted to force us into a peaceful solution, or they were afraid of getting hit for a stupid move on their #2's part.

Still, thank you for a great rebuttal. I love it when people shout stuff out and don't back it up with any pesky facts.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295373985' post='2581609']
You do realise that before he was actually able to load the images (ie. until they were re-hosted), he wouldn't have been able to know what was in them.
That's like the cop handing him a sealed envelope and then him asking for another one because he can't get the first envelope open.
Doesn't at all mean he knew what was [b]in[/b] the envelope.
[/quote]

oh, absolutely. If a drug dealer hands me a sealed baggie after I've talked about buying drugs from him, I'm [b]definitely[/b] not going to assume it's drugs.