Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[Arrnea]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295339151' post='2580888']i would say that Dajabo seeking out Impero to tell VE that they had a spy is pretty damning evidence that Dajabo was not some sort of mastermind in this little spy operation. but let's just forget about this tiny piece of info because it pretty much crumbles this "rock" solid CB VE has.[/quote]
Psssh, you should know by now that the truth is only applicable when convenient to those with the power to "do something about it".

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295338659' post='2580864']
So by your logic NPO never asked for high reps since their always fought with the help of their allies forming a coalition.


[/quote]

Nope I believe the difference is each war NPO alone took quite a lot of reps but seeing as your example ( Karma ) the 350,000 tech didn't go to VE. ( Not sure how much actually went to VE but on average it seems each alliance would get 650 million and 23,000 tech )

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295339151' post='2580888']
okay, 1) Dajabo gave no target. he only said that VE and MK were the most important alliance. 2) ya'll keep forgetting that pesky line where Dajabo says he does not condone spying. 3) he never told Lennox what to spy. in fact he told Lennox that Lennox should already know 4) Lennox is not a known spy until he umm.... actually spies. 5) When Lennox does spy, Dajabo goes to Impero to tell him. 6) Impero already knows as Lennox basically told Impero right after spying. 7) Impero tells Dajabo to $%&@ off basically. 8) Lennox was still a member of VE before deleting his nation.

so, that should clarify the situation. Until Lennox actually spied- how was Dajabo to know it was nothing more than bluster and smack talk. hell, i have talked about spying on alliances before and to my knowledge have yet to be turned in as a spy since... well i have not actually spied on any alliance. the fact that VE gov knew almost immediately that Lennox had spied either means that Lennox was attempting to set up Polaris or that VE gov was setting up Polaris.

no spy to my knowledge has ever sent material and then immediately came forth about it. let us also forget where Dajabo did attempt to come forward and tell Impero as that also suggests that he had nothing to do with the actual spying. otherwise, why wouldn't Dajabo have told Polar gov about the info instead of seeking out Impero?

i would say that Dajabo seeking out Impero to tell VE that they had a spy is pretty damning evidence that Dajabo was not some sort of mastermind in this little spy operation. but let's just forget about this tiny piece of info because it pretty much crumbles this "rock" solid CB VE has.
[/quote]

Now tell me again, how long until after Dajobo received those screenshots did he come to Impero to talk about it? I'm pretty sure it was Impero who came to NpO to talk about the screenshots, and not the other way around.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1295339320' post='2580895']
Nope I believe the difference is each war NPO alone took quite a lot of reps but seeing as your example ( Karma ) the 350,000 tech didn't go to VE. ( Not sure how much actually went to VE but on average it seems each alliance would get 650 million and 23,000 tech )
[/quote]

As long as the reps are spread around enough so that no one alliance gets a huge share, the burden on the paying alliance isn't considered onerous?

So really NPO's fault was not fracturing into 7 sub-alliances every time they asked for reps. Then it would have been fair to the alliance who paid.

I don't think there's a big enough eye-rolling icon for this kind of stupidity.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339386' post='2580898']
Now tell me again, how long until after Dajobo received those screenshots did he come to Impero to talk about it? I'm pretty sure it was Impero who came to NpO to talk about the screenshots, and not the other way around.
[/quote]

[2011-01-18 11:16:38] <Dajobo|NpO|> hey Impero you have a minute?
[2011-01-18 12:00:28] <Impero[VE]> im not sure what their is to talk about
[2011-01-18 12:01:36] <Dajobo|NpO|> not a lot really but you can decide what you think or you can have full and unedited logs of every word said
[2011-01-18 12:01:47] <Impero[VE]> but ill ask anyway: do you have some sort of amazing explaination for your dealings with lennox?
[2011-01-18 12:02:25] <Dajobo|NpO|> nothing amazing but the truth if you want it
[2011-01-18 12:03:02] <Impero[VE]> i have the truth already
[2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again
[2011-01-18 12:03:14] <Impero[VE]> have a good night
[2011-01-18 12:05:32] <Dajobo|NpO|> Ok your call, you will be the one who looks like a fool though.
[2011-01-18 12:05:39] <Dajobo|NpO|> goodnight.

well i do believe it was Dajobo who tried to talk to Impero first, so you are wrong there. As for how long Dajobo "held" onto the info- looks like less than a day and from both Polaris's thread and VE's thread- it appears Dajobo was at work and most likely after work went to bed (ooc: but is RL not a real excuse or something?). Then it appears that Impero was AFK and finally decided to talk to Dajobo only to [2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again

so, it appears you are completely wrong in your assessment. There was no known spy attempt that was more than a day old, and when Dajobo was able to do so, he immediately went to talk to Impero about it.

so you were saying WC? sorry to burst your bubble but this is not the "rock" solid CB as you and others claim. in fact, it appears to be a rather flimsy piece of crap that is so flimsy people have seriously tried to claim that helping Lennox out with choosing his nation name/ruler name is helping Lennox spy.

[Scorponok]

LOLVE.

Well I guess you wanted this.

[Kindom of Goon]

Lets be honest, we all knew this was coming, why bother pretending this is anything other than what it is?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295339920' post='2580917']
[2011-01-18 11:16:38] <Dajobo|NpO|> hey Impero you have a minute?
[2011-01-18 12:00:28] <Impero[VE]> im not sure what their is to talk about
[2011-01-18 12:01:36] <Dajobo|NpO|> not a lot really but you can decide what you think or you can have full and unedited logs of every word said
[2011-01-18 12:01:47] <Impero[VE]> but ill ask anyway: do you have some sort of amazing explaination for your dealings with lennox?
[2011-01-18 12:02:25] <Dajobo|NpO|> nothing amazing but the truth if you want it
[2011-01-18 12:03:02] <Impero[VE]> i have the truth already
[2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again
[2011-01-18 12:03:14] <Impero[VE]> have a good night
[2011-01-18 12:05:32] <Dajobo|NpO|> Ok your call, you will be the one who looks like a fool though.
[2011-01-18 12:05:39] <Dajobo|NpO|> goodnight.

well i do believe it was Dajobo who tried to talk to Impero first, so you are wrong there. As for how long Dajobo "held" onto the info- looks like less than a day and from both Polaris's thread and VE's thread- it appears Dajobo was at work and most likely after work went to bed (ooc: but is RL not a real excuse or something?). Then it appears that Impero was AFK and finally decided to talk to Dajobo only to [2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again

so, it appears you are completely wrong in your assessment. There was no known spy attempt that was more than a day old, and when Dajobo was able to do so, he immediately went to talk to Impero about it.

so you were saying WC? sorry to burst your bubble but this is not the "rock" solid CB as you and others claim. in fact, it appears to be a rather flimsy piece of crap that is so flimsy people have seriously tried to claim that helping Lennox out with choosing his nation name/ruler name is helping Lennox spy.
[/quote]

You know, fair enough on that point. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong about something, and I guess NpO did talk to VE first.

The major issue is NpO saying "pick someone worthwhile to spy on" when a guy comes and says he wants to spy, then naming VE as one of the more influential people out there. That followed by accepting a spied screenshot then holding on to it while discussing the information with the spy instead of coming to VE right away when he got it is pretty damning truth be told, at least from VE's perspective.

If I were VE I would have rolled as well given all of this information.

Edited January 18, 2011 by WarriorConcept

[iamthey]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1295339320' post='2580895']
Nope I believe the difference is each war NPO alone took quite a lot of reps but seeing as your example ( Karma ) the 350,000 tech didn't go to VE. ( Not sure how much actually went to VE but on average it seems each alliance would get 650 million and 23,000 tech )
[/quote]

Lets not eat our own propaganda now. The enrichment from reps on the part of the receptive alliance in a winning war barely makes up for a fraction of the damage done regardless of if we are talking about 20k or 80k. Reps do not even exist to help the winner's rebuilding, they exist to punish the loser and to create a disparity in the rebuilding phase (to ensure the loser rebuilds slower relative to the winner). To this end it makes no difference if the pie is divided by 20 or 1 as at the end of the day the overall burden imposed is the same, and the disparity in rebuilding is equivalent.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295340479' post='2580941']If I were VE I would have rolled as well given all of this information.[/quote]
But would you have tried to paint the story such that NpO didn't even try to talk to you, or would you have laid out the whole truth?
That is, after all, the point of his argument.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295340840' post='2580955']
But would you have tried to paint the story such that NpO didn't even try to talk to you, or would you have laid out the whole truth?
[/quote]

Did NpO try to talk to me when a someone came to them saying they want to spy? No they said "spy on someone worthwhile" and named VE

Did NpO try to talk to me when they got a screenshot of our information? No, they instead kept talking to the spy and actually comparing warchest information that was in the screenshot with their own.

That is the truth, though you may want to believe otherwise.

[ktarthan]

Wow, this thread grew incredibly fast, and unfortunately I don't have the time to read through all of it. I got through the first maybe 10 pages or so, and I assume that the next 25 are repetitions of that.

To VE: Cheers, and thanks for actually [i]doing something[/i]. If you didn't take this to war, I'd probably have rogued you.

To NpO: I have never had any strong desire to see you in war, and it's never been any sort of overwhelming desire within PB. Yes some of us don't like you, but hey guess what we're kind of a huge bloc with lots of people with varying opinions. Get over yourselves.

To The Peanut Gallery: It really is hard to please you guys. If it isn't the bunch saying "do something about it", it's the other bunch saying "Don't do [i]that[/i] about it! (And here's 36 pages of why you're wrong)" And I'm sure there's a bit of overlap in that venn diagram.

To Everyone Else: Nyah nyah nyah.

Edited January 18, 2011 by ktarthan

[Arrnea]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295341009' post='2580959']Did NpO try to talk to me when a someone came to them saying they want to spy? No they said "spy on someone worthwhile" and named VE[/quote]
Not denying that.

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295341009' post='2580959']Did NpO try to talk to me when they got a screenshot of our information? No, they instead kept talking to the spy and actually comparing warchest information that was in the screenshot with their own.[/quote]
They did, however by that time Impero had already made up his mind about war and was not receptive to further input, per these logs:[quote][2011-01-18 11:16:38] <Dajobo|NpO|> hey Impero you have a minute?
[2011-01-18 12:00:28] <Impero[VE]> im not sure what their is to talk about
[2011-01-18 12:01:36] <Dajobo|NpO|> not a lot really but you can decide what you think or you can have full and unedited logs of every word said
[2011-01-18 12:01:47] <Impero[VE]> but ill ask anyway: do you have some sort of amazing explaination for your dealings with lennox?
[b][2011-01-18 12:02:25] <Dajobo|NpO|> nothing amazing but the truth if you want it
[2011-01-18 12:03:02] <Impero[VE]> i have the truth already
[2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again
[2011-01-18 12:03:14] <Impero[VE]> have a good night[/b]
[2011-01-18 12:05:32] <Dajobo|NpO|> Ok your call, you will be the one who looks like a fool though.
[2011-01-18 12:05:39] <Dajobo|NpO|> goodnight.[/quote]

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Sang Amurwabhumi]

i really hate this war

Edited January 18, 2011 by Sang Amurwabhumi

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295341098' post='2580962']


They did, however by that time Impero had already made up his mind about war and was not receptive to further input, per these logs:
[/quote]

Yes they eventually did, probably after finding out VE was going to war instead of doing it on his own when he received the screenshot. Just because he did it once he realized his alliance would be rolled instead of when he actually received the information doesn't abdicate him of wrong doing.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295340479' post='2580941']
You know, fair enough on that point. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong about something, and I guess NpO did talk to VE first.

The major issue is NpO saying "pick someone worthwhile to spy on" when a guy comes and says he wants to spy, then naming VE as one of the more influential people out there. That followed by accepting a spied screenshot then holding on to it instead of coming to VE right away when he got it is pretty damning truth be told, at least from VE's perspective.

If I were VE I would have rolled as well given all of this information.
[/quote]

fairly certain if some random person approached Dajobo and said he was going to spy, that he would not respond. from what i can tell, Lennox was a friend of Dajobo and Dajobo thought he was joking. Dajobo got taken for a fool when Lennox did go through with it since it should be quite obvious it was a set up.

though you are stating that VE is not that influential? cuz truth be told, VE and MK are quite influential and if a spy were to spy on any two alliances, those two would be the ones to spy on. (oh damn, am i now somehow giving VE and MK a CB??????)

also, he accepted a PM that turned out to be a screenshot, and the following day got on to talk to Impero only to be told no. if you missed the "On the phone with a customer atm" line Dajobo stated here http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh149/Impero55/screenshot20110116at100.png

then it should be quite obvious why he did not spring straight to it and contact Impero. so again i ask, that other world, where priorities should take precedent, no longer matters? guess that anyone with obligations in that other world should drop them immediately to ensure that you or VE are properly kowtowed to then. please. that is the weakest !@#$ yet WC.

[Arrnea]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295341263' post='2580968']
Yes they eventually did, probably after finding out VE was going to war instead of doing it on his own when he received the screenshot. Just because he did it once he realized his alliance would be rolled instead of when he actually received the information doesn't abdicate him of wrong doing.
[/quote]
As I understand, this occurred over a rather short timeframe, so it's quite likely that Dajobo went to VE rather quickly, considering timezones and sleeping habits (and the like). Certainly quickly enough to argue that VE went hastily to war [b]without bothering to hear NpO's side of the story[/b].

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295341268' post='2580969']
fairly certain if some random person approached Dajobo and said he was going to spy, that he would not respond. from what i can tell, Lennox was a friend of Dajobo and Dajobo thought he was joking. Dajobo got taken for a fool when Lennox did go through with it since it should be quite obvious it was a set up.

though you are stating that VE is not that influential? cuz truth be told, VE and MK are quite influential and if a spy were to spy on any two alliances, those two would be the ones to spy on. (oh damn, am i now somehow giving VE and MK a CB??????)

also, he accepted a PM that turned out to be a screenshot, and the following day got on to talk to Impero only to be told no. if you missed the "On the phone with a customer atm" line Dajobo stated here http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh149/Impero55/screenshot20110116at100.png

then it should be quite obvious why he did not spring straight to it and contact Impero. so again i ask, that other world, where priorities should take precedent, no longer matters? guess that anyone with obligations in that other world should drop them immediately to ensure that you or VE are properly kowtowed to then. please. that is the weakest !@#$ yet WC.
[/quote]

I am not stating they're not influential and you know that. If someone wants to spy I would still not give them any targets, first I'd tell them not do it at all. As a leader in an alliance Dajobo has the responsibility to well..act responsible. And saying spy on someone worthwhile when the spy already has a target then proceeding to give him targets is certainly not what a leader should be doing.

And what seems obvious? Oh right that he kept discussing the screenshot information with the spy, which indicated he had enough time to go to #ve and let gov there know what was happening. Which would take what...2 minutes?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295341333' post='2580971']
As I understand, this occurred over a rather short timeframe, so it's quite likely that Dajobo went to VE rather quickly, considering timezones and sleeping habits (and the like). Certainly quickly enough to argue that VE went hastily to war [b]without bothering to hear NpO's side of the story[/b].
[/quote]

Actually I believe it was almost a full day, which would be fair enough otherwise except he did still spend time discussing the screenshot with the spy. Going to #ve and talking to someone there would not have taken more than 5 minutes.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295341333' post='2580971']
As I understand, this occurred over a rather short timeframe, so it's quite likely that Dajobo went to VE rather quickly, considering timezones and sleeping habits (and the like). Certainly quickly enough to argue that VE went hastily to war [b]without bothering to hear NpO's side of the story[/b].
[/quote]
I was there; one of NpO's "sides of the story" was "we aren't going to bother to defend ourselves because you'll ignore it anyway."

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1295316977' post='2579398']
I want to cast my vote in favour of the "Bye Polar War".
[/quote]

I share the sentiments of this [s]Gentle[/s]man.

Also, is it the same Lennox whose alliance NpO betrayed in Bi-polar war?

Edited January 18, 2011 by shahenshah

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295341489' post='2580973']
I am not stating they're not influential and you know that. If someone wants to spy I would still not give them any targets, first I'd tell them not do it at all. As a leader in an alliance Dajobo has the responsibility to well..act responsible. And saying spy on someone worthwhile when the spy already has a target then proceeding to give him targets is certainly not what a leader should be doing.

And what seems obvious? Oh right that he kept discussing the screenshot information with the spy, which indicated he had enough time to go to #ve and let gov there know what was happening. Which would take what...2 minutes?
[/quote]

so you would tell them not to do it like Dajobo stating he does not condone spying? okay. Dajobo did that.

also, work may mean he has no IRC access.... you do realize there are times when people can't get on IRC and work would most likely be one of those times. i know it is a complete and utter shock to you, but it is the sad truth.

as for the rest- again, Dajobo was talking to someone who was a friend whom he thought was joking. heaven forbid someone not take this place so damn seriously that they would automatically assume a friend of theirs was not joking in that kind of situation. shoot, if that were the case, then i had better be careful about what i joke about. i have joked about going rogue, spying, trying to coup an alliance or 3 or 4 and !@#$ like that.

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295341333' post='2580971']
As I understand, this occurred over a rather short timeframe, so it's quite likely that Dajobo went to VE rather quickly, considering timezones and sleeping habits (and the like).
[/quote]

shush you, to WC that other world does not matter. Only Planet Bob matters and that other realm and the obligations there are nothing compared to getting to VE right away. it does not matter if Dajobo probably had no means of contacting Impero as that chat did not look like it took place on IRC. nor does it matter that it appears that Dajobo was at work and most likely had other things to do when he got home before bed. none of that matters at all man. you have to adapt to this new CN or die in a Darwinian manner.

that being said, tis late and i am heading to bed.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295341711' post='2580979']
I was there; one of NpO's "sides of the story" was "we aren't going to bother to defend ourselves because you'll ignore it anyway."
[/quote]

NpO has experience dealing with VE and !@#$%^&* CBs.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1295341823' post='2580983']
NpO has experience dealing with VE and !@#$%^&* CBs.
[/quote]
That's fine and all, just don't think you can tell VE to sod off and then complain that no attempt at diplomacy was made.

[iamthey]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295340479' post='2580941']
You know, fair enough on that point. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong about something, and I guess NpO did talk to VE first.

The major issue is NpO saying "pick someone worthwhile to spy on" when a guy comes and says he wants to spy, then naming VE as one of the more influential people out there. That followed by accepting a spied screenshot then holding on to it while discussing the information with the spy instead of coming to VE right away when he got it is pretty damning truth be told, at least from VE's perspective.

If I were VE I would have rolled as well given all of this information.
[/quote]

Based on what I've seen of Lennox's general character, the logs really look like nothing more than 'lolishouldroguemha', and dajboo jokingly responding with 'lolnorogueve:3'. Replace rogue with spy. No reasonable person would take that seriously, and if they did go out and act on the latter statement its source certainly shouldn't be held responsible as there is no way they could have known it would lead to its final consequences.

I could easily see how Dajoboo could have taken it as 'typical lennox'. I can also see how rolling with a joke rather than responding to it seriously with moral indignation and outrage would have made sense. When he got the screenshots that probably should have been a red flag. Then again, if it was someone you trusted and you thought it was a joke, giving them the benefit of the doubt and not creating an international incident over what you figured was rubbish, is probably a position I can sympathize with. If anything Dajoboo is guilty of being careless and allowing himself to be taken advantage of. He is probably not however guilty of any deliberate conspiracy to infiltrate VE.