Dear VE, A dear message from TKTB's supposed spy

[Tigerdonia Redux]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292362207' post='2539683']
Ok. so he said "my bad" a MONTH after he told \m/ to get bent. thats not exactly logging on the next day "i felt like crap last night and was really rude, im sorry." and then go on to solve the original issue at hand of spying
[/quote]

Impero apologized. I don't think you realize the gravity of the situation here.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' timestamp='1292362423' post='2539685']
Impero apologized. I don't think you realize the gravity of the situation here.
[/quote]

I'd have to agree with my friend here. Now the messiah for the other side, Ivan Moldavi has said on more than one occasion that if he "had the guns" he'd roll over people left and right, but that gets conveniently forgotten by those who have an axe to grind.

[Caliph]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292362207' post='2539683']
Ok. so he said "my bad" a MONTH after he told \m/ to get bent. thats not exactly logging on the next day "i felt like crap last night and was really rude, im sorry." and then go on to solve the original issue at hand of spying
[/quote]

It wasn't a month after, it was in another VE thread about a month back, so his first apology that I recall was 1 month ago, which would be 3 months since the incident. Still a long time between having a crappy night to giving an apology ...

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' timestamp='1292362423' post='2539685']
Impero apologized. I don't think you realize the gravity of the situation here.
[/quote]
I do, and I for one appreciate it. It is a step in the right direction, but like I said, they did more than just say bad things about us. They did actions to us, therefore I require actions be done on their part before they are forgiven. Impero alluded to wanting to make it up to us at some point in the future. Until that point in time comes to pass, the apology is a good start but not enough, especially given that it took him 4 months and happened after I went public with my grievances.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292359439' post='2539651']
well the point still stands that VE is asking for far more than they are willing to give unless you have the back up to force it from VE. \m/ obviously did not have that back up.
[/quote]
This is correct. A quick look at our treaties at the time and one would notice that one of our MDoAP allies is also MDoAP'ed to VE and was at the time. The other MDoAP ally we had at the time was PC who was in talks to form Pandoras Box at the time and was warming up to VE. PC was uninterested in the VE \m/ situation and I seriously doubt would have helped us hit VE. Our MDoAP allies might have protected us against VE allies who would try to counter us, but that would really be unnecessary as VE had at least triple our member count at the time to qualify for sanction and at least 4 times our total NS. We [i]might[/i] have had them beat in avg NS, but they had us licked in every other stat. In other words, they wouldn't have needed any MDoAP help, but enough of their MDoAP partners have expressed anger at us before and alluded (membership, perhaps not government) their desire to hit us and see us rolled and disband. Why give them such an opportunity on a golden platter?

And to top it off I seriously doubt VE would have let us get off without paying reps. So our choices were take the VE spying incident and do nothing about it, or do something about it, get smashed, and pay reps for VE spying on us.

Part of playing the game is knowing when to play the hand, and when to fold.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

Caliph - PC only ever held an ODP with you while in discussions about PB.

And I only heard about the VE stuff well after the fact. Had I known about it at the time I'd have helped assist in the matter as I assisted in the exact same situation with SLCB.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1292367651' post='2539761']
Caliph - PC only ever held an ODP with you while in discussions about PB.

And I only heard about the VE stuff well after the fact. Had I known about it at the time I'd have helped assist in the matter as I assisted in the exact same situation with SLCB.
[/quote]
My mistake then, perhaps we only had an ODP at the time. It happened in August, I forget the time when our treaty was downgraded but I had thought the VE incident had taken place while it was an MDoAP. My mistake.

I also PMed Derwood the logs of me speaking with Impero and expressed my concern over you signing with VE before you signed. He knew about the incident after we had given up on diplomacy. I do not remember the exact date, but Derwood knew before you officially signed PB with VE.

We had ROK help us try to get something done, and after VE's MDoAP ally couldn't get them to budge we gave up on diplomacy. Perhaps the fact that we had an ODP and not an MDoAP, and that you weren't allied with VE at the time, was the reason we didn't go to you in that incident.

You did work wonders in the SLCB situation, no thanks to the SLCB triumvirs. Porksaber was the only one in SLCB to listen and give me the time of day, and without PC's help things would be very different now. I do appreciate your assistance in that matter.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Caliph

[Argin]

Caliph, just so you know when that incident occurred there was a discussion about our conduct in dealing with you on our parliament's forums and several people stated that they were unhappy with how we had proceeded with the matter. So if it counts for anything, here is another personal apology from me, I don't believe we acted on par with VE standards in dealing with you. Of course I understand if you are still angry with us and don't expect you to change your mind on anything, I was just hoping I could provide some more perspective on the matter.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Argin

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292362207' post='2539683']
Ok. so he said "my bad" a MONTH after he told \m/ to get bent. thats not exactly logging on the next day "i felt like crap last night and was really rude, im sorry." and then go on to solve the original issue at hand of spying
[/quote]

Brother you are bitter. I don't like this side of you Joe.

[wickedj]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1292370769' post='2539802']
Brother you are bitter. I don't like this side of you Joe.
[/quote]
I dont like the fact it took a month of back and forth before Caliph posted it here to finally get some resolution, a rather half assed one i might add

[LegendoftheSkies]

There wasn't much "back and forth" that I'm aware of. As far as I know we haven't even really spoken to each other at all since that incident.

[Aurion]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292362207' post='2539683']
Ok. so he said "my bad" a MONTH after he told \m/ to get bent. thats not exactly logging on the next day "i felt like crap last night and was really rude, im sorry." and then go on to solve the original issue at hand of spying
[/quote]

Gonna have to agree with the VE guys- Impero isn't one to apologize. It's...not how he does things.

You can get mad about it, or you can use the spine I know you have and deal with it.

[WarriorConcept]

I'm surprised \m/ didn't take it farther, truth be told. I thought they stood up for what they believed in, regardless of possible consequences.

[Caliph]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1292441647' post='2540308']
I'm surprised \m/ didn't take it farther, truth be told. I thought they stood up for what they believed in, regardless of possible consequences.
[/quote]
We ran that scenario over. We looked at the treaties, and from our perception of VE we made a choice.

If we had taken it further, it would have just been us attacking VE over their act of war against us. VE had us in stats, and they have tons of MDoAP's, and did at the time, especially one with our then only MDoAP partner, RoK. We could've still fought VE, but then we looked at all the comments arrayed against us by VE's MDoAP allies, and the rest of you lot, calling for our destruction, our rolling, our disbandment. Us hitting VE would have given you lot the perfect oppurtunity to roll us, and keep us in war until we would've agreed to reps. So we would have been in a situation where we would have been in the right, stood up for ourselves, but get smashed and have to pay reps. I don't mind the getting smashed bit, I gladly got smashed in the Polar war, but its the paying reps part that bothered me the most. I am not paying you if you spy on me.

Or we could've took the slap to the face, formed our opinion of VE, and sat back for a bit.

I am loathe to pay reps to an alliance we hit because they wronged us. Besides, do you really think VE's MDoAP allies who love us so much would have stayed out?

VE is too connected for us to have done anything against them.
Now don't get it wrong, we have stood up for ourselves when other alliances have tried this on us, and have gotten results.

You have to know when to fold em, and when to play the hand.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292454360' post='2540431']Us hitting VE would have given you lot the perfect oppurtunity to roll us, and keep us in war until we would've agreed to reps. So we would have been in a situation where we would have been in the right, stood up for ourselves, but get smashed and have to pay reps. I don't mind the getting smashed bit, I gladly got smashed in the Polar war, but its the paying reps part that bothered me the most. I am not paying you if you spy on me.[/quote]

You're making a lot of assumptions. I can understand your concern and I don't speak for Impero, but I don't think when you go to war with VE and lose, it's automatic you're going to pay reps. I don't think we took any reps from our participation in Bi-Polar and we fought a handful of alliances in that one.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1292459149' post='2540497']
You're making a lot of assumptions. I can understand your concern and I don't speak for Impero, but I don't think when you go to war with VE and lose, it's automatic you're going to pay reps. I don't think we took any reps from our participation in Bi-Polar and we fought a handful of alliances in that one.
[/quote]
White peace was given out like it was candy in that war to allow for the focus to be put on TOP/IRON/DAWN/TORN.

I made the assumption, given Impero's treatment of me when I went to speak with him about his member spying on my member, that he didn't hold us in much esteem. Now I know not to believe everything you see and hear, but VE has a lot of treaties, and members of alliances they have treaties with have publicly stated their desire to see us rolled, disbanded, pay reps, all sorts of nasty things. Those that didn't have made it clear they didn't like us. Agressively hitting VE would have trigger all those mutual defense agreements, not like you would've needed them but with the dislike on us already prevelant, hitting everyones "friend" VE would not have been a sound decision. You deserved it, but we would've come out on the losing side in more ways than one.

Even ignoring your treaties, given Imperos' statements to me and disrespect, he seemed the person to try to force reps out of a situation in which we hit his alliance. Perhaps he wouldn't have wanted reps if just anyone hit him, but it seemed to me he hated us. That is what I based my opinion of him on. Perhaps I was wrong in my assessment of him, but given the only information I had that is what I went off of.

Knowing \m/, knowing our reputation, knowing our FA, warring VE would not have helped us, it would have isolated us with traditional allies, at the very least strained relations, and further isolated us on "this side" of ours, the only "side" that has messed with us since we came back. For all your fear of NPO, at least they have yet to commit an act of war against us, whereas this "side" of ours has given us no less than 2 since July.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1292318179' post='2539387']
It is, however, an anomaly and an outlier in the type of conduct that people receive when dealing with myself and others. This is something you don't have to believe yourself, but rather can find out simply by asking[i] literally anyone[/i] else who has dealt with me, up to and including our most colorful detractor who has flamboyantly decked himself in anti Viridian garb. Thousands of conversations convey quite a starkly different picture, so take that for what its worth when framing your conception of us and myself, though I don't expect you to and rightfully so.
[/quote]
Hooooolllllld on there, buddy. Have we had cordial conversations? Sure. But to be frank, I don't consider holding a sting operation in my house to be respectful, especially when the target was already exposed, and big surprise it took an OWF ribbing to get that one out in the air as well. Using your sting as an opportunity to jerk CoJ around is beyond unprofessional and I don't know what you all think the Viridian Way[sup]TM[/sup] is but I've got my own ideas about it and they're grounded in experience, not what I wish Viridia was.
I see this the same way Caliph sees it: A nice token, but the same obstinacy to actually make it right that you had when it happened. Make Bob fix it, it's not that hard, and what's a dollar out of 20 billion?

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1292367651' post='2539761']
Caliph - PC only ever held an ODP with you while in discussions about PB.

And I only heard about the VE stuff well after the fact. Had I known about it at the time I'd have helped assist in the matter as I assisted in the exact same situation with SLCB.
[/quote]
Yeah, Caliph, you should've known better than to talk to Derwood, you should have talked to Zoom and things would have been totally different. Your bad.

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1292440387' post='2540293']
You can get mad about it, or you can use the spine I know you have and deal with it.
[/quote]
Pretty self-serving. I guess GOD misses the ole curbstomp days.

[quote name='Tigerdonia Redux' timestamp='1292362423' post='2539685']
Impero apologized. I don't think you realize the gravity of the situation here.
[/quote]
[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1292363922' post='2539706']
I'd have to agree with my friend here. [/quote]
[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292362207' post='2539683']
Ok. so he said "my bad" a MONTH after he told \m/ to get bent. thats not exactly logging on the next day "i felt like crap last night and was really rude, im sorry." and then go on to solve the original issue at hand of spying
[/quote]
Exactly, WickedJ! Go on, Caliph, kiss the boot! His Majesty the Lord Protector of the Entente has come down from on high to say "I'm sorry" out of half of his mouth. You are blessed, indeed.

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1292363922' post='2539706']
Now the messiah for the other side, Ivan Moldavi has said on more than one occasion that if he "had the guns" he'd roll over people left and right, but that gets conveniently forgotten by those who have an axe to grind.
[/quote]
What's to forget? He hasn't [i]done[/i] anything in nearly 4 years. And since when is the standard for what is right the lowest thing that someone with name recognition [i]says[/i]? When Moldavi starts running VE, we'll talk. As for CoJ, we hold ourselves to our own high standards of conduct without regard to the low things others might do in the same situation.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

I believe Caliph put it about right in his post. That was a clear situation where \m/ taking a step back and not going in guns blazing was the right move. Not just from the scenario of actually paying reps for being wronged but also from the point of view of not wanting to make things difficult for the one ally that actually saw their viewpoint and wanted to help them get restitution. The lot of you may not expect \m/ to be sane and mature and might think of them as bling-bling-osnap-bling-epiclulzors but in this case they displayed the most mature behavior of the alliances involved. Perceptions and preconceived notions are are well and good but when they start blinding one to the obvious, it is time to sit back and take stock.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1292454360' post='2540431']
You have to know when to fold em, and when to play the hand.
[/quote]
Sure thing, that's a given, but one question remains.

Are you still waiting for a pair of aces, or would you gradually like to start getting over that particular hand?

[Caliph]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1292494643' post='2540828']
Sure thing, that's a given, but one question remains.

Are you still waiting for a pair of aces, or would you gradually like to start getting over that particular hand?
[/quote]
The apology is a good start, but until actions are done, more than an apology, I'm not getting over it.

Actions will make this right, not words. Are you/VE prepared to do the actions that would make this right? Or are you going stand by that you apology is the only thing that is necessary?

Don't get me wrong, an apology is a good start, and it shows that you do not agree with some of what happened before. But if we didn't accept an apology then as sufficient to end this, why would we take an apology now, 4 months later, when said apology was only after I went public? An apology would have been better if it had occured closer to August, when we exhausted private channels with your government. Apologies for things only after they become public sure is a funny way of saying how sorry you are for doing something.

As for me waiting for a pair or aces or move on ...the way I see the issue is not closed. Actions will remove my grievance, not words. It will take more than an apology, and I look forward to the time that Impero decides, if ever, to make this up to us. If such a thing were to come to pass, I would let this go.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Caliph

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1292473559' post='2540677']What's to forget? He hasn't [i]done[/i] anything in nearly 4 years. And since when is the standard for what is right the lowest thing that someone with name recognition [i]says[/i]?[/quote]
Well he's done more than you have since you founded CoJ. Don't get me wrong, I know you did a lot as the spymaster for Vox, but as an alliance leader, you just haven't been successful. I know you see yourself as a cult of personality and the standard bearer for all that is righteous on Planet Bob, but the reality is CoJ has been plodding along for 19 months and in that time, you've done nothing of great importance. CoJ is an afterthought. If the Cult was attacked today, who would come to your rescue? You would do better to just pack it in and say you tried instead of letting your festering sore of an alliance continue. My assessment is harsh, but let's just call a spade a spade.

[quote]As for CoJ, we hold ourselves to our own high standards of conduct without regard to the low things others might do in the same situation.
[/quote]
High standards? You make me laugh. What kind of standards were you following when you attended the little WCE party in which you guys tried to manufacture a "legitimate" CB against GOONS. High standards. Yeah, that's funny.

[Poyplemonkeys]

Nobody in the 'WCE' logs was trying to manufacture a CB except Hero of Time and he was fairly soundly told he was being an idiot by most people if I remember rightly. Most people were there because they thought UPN had an actual grievance, rather than being butthurt over the fact GOONS was pissed off at them accepting rogues into their alliance.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1292473559' post='2540677']
Pretty self-serving. I guess GOD misses the ole curbstomp days.
[/quote]

Herpity derpity derp, huh?

Well, whatever floats your boat.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1292518925' post='2540954']
Nobody in the 'WCE' logs was trying to manufacture a CB except Hero of Time and he was fairly soundly told he was being an idiot by most people if I remember rightly. Most people were there because they thought UPN had an actual grievance, rather than being butthurt over the fact GOONS was pissed off at them accepting rogues into their alliance.
[/quote]

Come back to GOONS.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]An apology would have been better if it had occured closer to August, when we exhausted private channels with your government. Apologies for things only after they become public sure is a funny way of saying how sorry you are for doing something.[/quote]
Now hang on there, you were offered an apology during those negotiations (perhaps even the ones that you dumped, I can't be bothered going back to see exactly which ones they were).

And really, your issue is with me, since all VE are doing is not kicking me out. I await your actions with pleasure – speaking personally, of course.

[MrMuz]

Bob Janova and Caliph should duel on update. No allies backing up either. Well ok, not Caliph, just one of \m/'s champions.

Just make it a 7-day infra destruction using spies. More entertaining than the 10.10.10 fights. Or you guys can just buy cruise missiles and spy each other's cruise missiles away if you want to hug infra.

Edited December 16, 2010 by MrMuz

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1292525250' post='2541021']
Bob Janova and Caliph should duel on update. No allies backing up either.
[/quote]

Over something that should have been solved 3 months ago