An Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion

[WalkerNinja]

Y'know, as much as I like to see our allies in TSO being defended by someone other than TOP for once in their existence, you guys are picking the wrong fight. TSO (and TOP, and IRON, and Others) transgressed the norms of interalliance politics in a manner unlike anyone had before. For doing this and failing, we were destined to suffer as few ever had before. We're all big boys, and we knew the stakes up front. If it worked, we would have gotten to bask in glory.

It didn't, and these are the consequences of failure.

This isn't remotely like GATO, or ONOS, or The Dove War/Purple Gate, or the ICP Reformation Massacre. This is mercy, and it's appreciated. At least it is by me, and I'm not exactly what you would call an Athens apologist.

Edited December 11, 2010 by WalkerNinja

[Lord Curzon]

Well done Athens. It is most certainly good to see you guys waive these.

With respect to the discussion about the original reps, I always thought TSO's were outrageously high. If i recall correctly, TSO and TORN were about the same size in number of members at the end of the war yet they were slapped with more than 5x the amount of reps in absolute terms (direct/indirect was a factor). This is absurd considering ability to pay is almost exclusively determined by member count, which give you the slots needed to pay down your debt. TSO was lobbed into the TOP rate category which begs the question of why there were ever two categories to begin with.

Though as many have said in this thread, these arguments are neither here nor there and have been discussed before ad nauseum. C&G was lenient with us, I'm glad that good spirit is finally trickling down to our battle brothers in the TSO. 3/5ths of the primary combatants are still paying reps so far from the end of the conflict. Let us hope that the generosity shown thus far will continue should the situation warrant it.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Lord Curzon

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1292051580' post='2536196']
3/5ths of the primary combatants are still paying reps so far from the end of the conflict.
[/quote]
Who's still paying?

Edited December 11, 2010 by Sandwich Controversy

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292051854' post='2536199']
Who?
[/quote]

IRON/TOP/TSO or did I miss something? From what I understand TSO still owes something like 5K, at least thats what was implied by a earlier TSO poster.

Edit: Maybe I really did miss something?

Edited December 11, 2010 by Lord Curzon

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1292052097' post='2536200']
IRON/TOP/TSO or did I miss something? From what I understand TSO still owes something like 5K, at least thats what was implied by a earlier TSO poster.

Edit: Maybe I really did miss something?
[/quote]
Yes, you did miss something. Ask TOP

In IRON's case I've said before that I consider the fact that they're still paying entirely their fault. TSO's still got their OSA bit to pay, you're right about that, I think.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292052231' post='2536201']
Yes, you did miss something. Ask TOP

In IRON's case I've said before that I consider the fact that they're still paying entirely their fault. TSO's still got their OSA bit to pay, you're right about that, I think.
[/quote]

In that case I apologize. With respect to IRON, by "their fault" you mean Gramlin's fault right

Edited December 11, 2010 by Lord Curzon

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1292052702' post='2536203']
In that case I apologize. With respect to IRON, by "their fault" you mean Gramlin's fault right
[/quote]
Sort of, but they were barely fighting and clearly using it as an excuse not to pay.

[Lord Curzon]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292052736' post='2536204']
Sort of, but they were barely fighting and clearly using it as an excuse not to pay.
[/quote]

I mean to be fair, while they might have been capable of paying while at war with Gre (iirc they did start paying toward the end) the fact that they had to contend with Gre's shens when no other surrendering party did made the burden that much harder for them. I think its hard to fault them for using the time while they suffocated Gre to get in better shape to start paying down their debts, especially considering that understanding was implicit in the ESA.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1292053497' post='2536209']
I mean to be fair, while they might have been capable of paying while at war with Gre (iirc they did start paying toward the end) the fact that they had to contend with Gre's shens when no other surrendering party did made the burden that much harder for them. I think its hard to fault them for using the time while they suffocated Gre to get in better shape to start paying down their debts, especially considering that understanding was implicit in the ESA.
[/quote]
It's true that I'd have probably taken advantage of that extra time in their situation, and that they had a unique handicap, but I wouldn't later say WE'RE STILL PAYING 8 MONTHS LATER DRACONIAN TERMS!!!!!!.

[StevieG]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1292053963' post='2536211']
It's true that I'd have probably taken advantage of that extra time in their situation, and that they had a unique handicap, but I wouldn't later say WE'RE STILL PAYING 8 MONTHS LATER DRACONIAN TERMS!!!!!!.
[/quote]
So he might be off by a 5th. Nowhere did he say "WE'RE STILL PAYING 8 MONTHS LATER DRACONIAN TERMS!!!!!!."

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='StevieG' timestamp='1292054811' post='2536218']
So he might be off by a 5th. Nowhere did he say "WE'RE STILL PAYING 8 MONTHS LATER DRACONIAN TERMS!!!!!!."
[/quote]
Indeed he did not. I was not referring to him.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1292019156' post='2535869']
Have we not made it clear that this wasn't done for PR? Or do you just not care and want to trash our every move?
[/quote]
You made it clear, people dont believe you. If you did it a while back before MK ditched you like yesterdays rubbish people might believe you. Doing it from a weakened position after 7 months or so has all the hallmarks of a desperate attempt to get people to see you as a good alliance and not the alliance that for the last 2 years had no problem lumbering alliances with draconian reps from 8 months to a year. That stain is a difficult one to clean and takes more than a small gesture from a weakened position.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Alterego

[wickedj]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1292000074' post='2535705']
Athens classy move albeit a bit late perhaps its still a cool thing to do. Are we so bitter across lines that when someone does something halfway decent it cant be seen for what it is. Oh well back to my cave.

Athens your dissapointing me
[/quote]
You know whats sad is we talked about this before the thread was even posted and we're like 'people will call us terrible and say its a PR stunt'

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1292063704' post='2536259']
You know whats sad is we talked about this before the thread was even posted and we're like 'people will call us terrible and say its a PR stunt'
[/quote]

That is sad.

Im going to agree with Feanor on how sad some of the posts are.

I doubt Athens made TSO post this im pretty sure TSO posted this in the spirit of the op which was appreciation to Athens realizing what was going on and their inability to pay the reps timely due to membership loss. Athens is a lot of things and tbh honest I would love to have a go at them, not so much out of hatred anymore as ive come to know them and they are a good bunch IMO but because they play to have fun and play both war and politics well. Everything we do on the OWF is PR related from announcing treaties to declaring war. Instead of digging for drama people go make some or sthu. Can it be argued the reps were to high to start sure, but it can also be said Athens could of made TSO either disband or pay off the reps and they didnt. Maybe it was a little later than many of us would have like to have seen but they showed everyone a little something by doing this.

Dammit the peanut gallery making me defend Londo Rush Rsox and that wicked wickedj guy.
o/ Athens you continue to impress me and have my respect.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292063435' post='2536257']
You made it clear, people dont believe you. If you did it a while back before MK ditched you like yesterdays rubbish people might believe you. Doing it from a weakened position after 7 months or so has all the hallmarks of a desperate attempt to get people to see you as a good alliance and not the alliance that for the last 2 years had no problem lumbering alliances with draconian reps from 8 months to a year. That stain is a difficult one to clean and takes more than a small gesture from a weakened position.
[/quote]
We didn't "ditch Athens like yesterdays rubbish" and TSO didn't have to post this, so you really don't have any point.

[Gopherbashi]

[quote name='Lord Curzon' timestamp='1292052097' post='2536200']
IRON/TOP/TSO or did I miss something? From what I understand TSO still owes something like 5K, at least thats what was implied by a earlier TSO poster.

Edit: Maybe I really did miss something?
[/quote]
As of when this was posted, TSO had 2400 tech remaining to be paid to OSA.

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1292063435' post='2536257']
You made it clear, people dont believe you. If you did it a while back before MK ditched you like yesterdays rubbish people might believe you. Doing it from a weakened position after 7 months or so has all the hallmarks of a desperate attempt to get people to see you as a good alliance and not the alliance that for the last 2 years had no problem lumbering alliances with draconian reps from 8 months to a year. That stain is a difficult one to clean and takes more than a small gesture from a weakened position.
[/quote]

If you really believe that we're in a "weakened position" then you actually don't know anything about the current situation. I mean really, do you even pay attention to what goes on around here?

[Khyber]

Nice show Athens, and great to hear TSO.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Fyfe XIV' timestamp='1292090612' post='2536536']
If you really believe that we're in a "weakened position" then you actually don't know anything about the current situation. I mean really, do you even pay attention to what goes on around here?
[/quote]
Alterego has a special edition CN Forum Posting Kaleidoscope so that every time he comments it's a little different, but it's the same crap from a different angle.

The commutation of reparations was the result of some well argued and reasonable lobbying by TSO's allies. When I brought it up for discussion with an internal thread, both gov and membership post could be boiled down to "paying reps sucks" and that "TSO wasn't a threat to Athens security". (Politically, not militarily. That is to say we don't expect hostility)

That was it really. Once we decided to consider dropping the reps, it was a 12-24 hour discussion before TSO was informed. That was really the end of it for us. JesseJames wanted to post, but we had no inclination one way or the other.

Edited December 12, 2010 by rsoxbronco1

[Ying Yang Mafia]

Needs more logs.

[SpacingOutMan]

Good show Athens, good show.

[jesse james]

[quote name='Ying Yang Mafia' timestamp='1292171306' post='2537367']
Needs more logs.
[/quote]
[18:11] <jessejames[TSO]> i would like to make a post in CN, thank Athens for its generosity
[18:11] <rsoxbronco1> Completely your call
[18:11] <jessejames[TSO]> we will

Edited December 12, 2010 by jesse james

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1291877265' post='2534718']
That explains so much.
[/quote]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1291878090' post='2534726']
That would be implying I hold anything against you, which I don't.
[/quote]

Are you actually this dumb?

[Proxian Empire]

Clowns and peons getting along, such love in the air.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1292196567' post='2537704']
Are you actually this dumb?
[/quote]

I usually avoid feeding idiots with explanations, but this time I'll indulge you. I said it explains so much because Francesca used to actively work against the former TSO government in a way and for reasons that I didn't find rational or even intelligent. Thus making sense the posts of her latest incarnation in this thread. However, personally, I have absolutely nothing against Kalasin or any of her past incarnations.