The Doom House Accords

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288624207' post='2499013']
Uh yeah. Shall we bring up the time when you attacked an MDP partner of both Pacifica and Valhalla, and then they didn't roll you as evidence for how they were both desperately trying to roll you, or was that just a smokescreen?
[/quote]
Oh, piss off.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1288674613' post='2499670']
VE and MK have never been close to having a treaty with each other, but that hasn't stopped us from coordinating with each other on intelligence/war related matters. We don't need a blanket statement saying 'MK has our ok to get sensitive intelligence' because it would be ridiculous of us not to keep those lines of communication as open as they have always been, and the same goes for any PB alliance I'm sure.
[/quote]
Have you read the Pandora's Box treaty?

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' date='12 October 2010 - 09:01 AM' post='2499722']
[b]Article 2[/b]

Any information one signatory obtains that could impact another alliance within the bloc must be shared with the group in a timely manner. Information of this type is not to be shared outside of the bloc without unanimous consent.
[/quote]
The treaty says consent first. For each individual piece of information.

Which means that, yes, if some Pandora's Box member has government that can't be reached at say 4AM server time, then you can't share that information.

It struck me as a terrible clause when it was announced. This is why.

If you guys are OK with just ignoring it though, that's probably the best thing to do.

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288679324' post='2499722']
Oh, piss off.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
[/quote]
Yes, I had no involvement in that war whatsoever, and didn't coordinate the successful peace talks that ended it. Right.

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288697657' post='2499792']
Yes, I had no involvement in that war whatsoever, and didn't coordinate the successful peace talks that ended it. Right.
[/quote]
Yeah, that's pretty much correct. You didn't coordinate a damn thing, much like Invicta's Minister of Defence. Not once did I ever talk to you. The actual peace negotiations occurred largely between Vanguard, Echelon, Ragnarok and Valhalla. Legion was included every now and then for the sake of appearances.

Look, your previous statement displays nothing but ignorance. You are trying to use the fact that NPO and Valhalla didn't touch Vanguard [b]in the middle of a global war[/b] as the basis of an argument that Pacifica and Valhalla were entirely benevolent towards Vanguard and its allies. That is utter !@#$%^&*. There were three reasons why NPO and Valhalla did not attack Vanguard in response to Vanguard defending Universalis against The Legion: i) they were militarily engaged elsewhere, ii) Vanguard held treaties with Ragnarok, Echelon and TOP at the time, each of which were allied to NPO and Valhalla, and iii) no one really cares about The Legion.

But then, I shouldn't expect you to know any better, because you are, and always have been, entirely irrelevant and precluded from discussions of any real meaning. Everyone considers you a joke, even your own allies.

I think you would probably even be able to get Valhalla to admit to the fact that "let's try to roll Vanguard" was pretty much a bimonthly activity for them. I no longer hold it against them, and look back on it with amusement (mostly because they were never successful ), but that does not mean it never happened.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Denial

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288699400' post='2499796']
Yeah, that's pretty much correct. You didn't coordinate a damn thing, much like Invicta's Minister of Defence. Not once did I ever talk to you. The actual peace negotiations occurred largely between Vanguard, Echelon, Ragnarok and Valhalla. Legion was included every now and then for the sake of appearances.
[/quote]
I didn't talk to you. I talked to Rafael_Nadal, initiating peace talks between Legion, UPN, Invicta and Vanguard. Mere hours later, there was a peace agreement.

Sorry, didn't need you.

(All the actual work on our side to get terms to end the war was done by me and chefjoe.)

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288701815' post='2499808']
I didn't talk to you. I talked to Rafael_Nadal, initiating peace talks between Legion, UPN, Invicta and Vanguard. Mere hours later, there was a peace agreement.

Sorry, didn't need you.

(All the actual work on our side to get terms to end the war was done by me and chefjoe.)
[/quote]
Hey, guess what.

You spoke to Rafa (not QTUN or I; the high government at the time), because you were a secondary concern that had no impact on the peace process. Crap rolls down hill in a chain of command and, unfortunately for him, Rafa was the one stuck speaking to you.

I'm sure one of the perks of Rafa rising to Sovereign (and a good one, at that) later on down the line was the opportunity for him to delegate downwards such displeasing responsibilities

[Kryievla]

I like that title very much; the imagery appeals to me. Congratulations to the three of you. Also, some of the commentary in here is priceless.

[Devilyn Caster]

<3 me some GOONS and MK

[tamerlane]

ITT Halfinger performs some of the most egregious acts of e-lawyering -for what purpose, I know not- to date; Philosopher would be proud.

Edited November 2, 2010 by tamerlane

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1288712967' post='2499886']
ITT Halfinger performs some of the most egregious acts of e-lawyering -for what purpose, I know not- to date; Philosopher would be proud.
[/quote]
since when has e-lawyering on the OWF ever been for a purpose other than just being annoying for the sake of being annoying. Hell, you guys perfected this practice in the pre-Karma days

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288705938' post='2499827']
Hey, guess what.

You spoke to Rafa (not QTUN or I; the high government at the time), because you were a secondary concern that had no impact on the peace process. Crap rolls down hill in a chain of command and, unfortunately for him, Rafa was the one stuck speaking to you.

I'm sure one of the perks of Rafa rising to Sovereign (and a good one, at that) later on down the line was the opportunity for him to delegate downwards such displeasing responsibilities
[/quote]
So, it is your contention that if Rafa hadn't joined my private channel that morning, there would have been a peace deal anyway?

You're funny.

Here's how it looks from my point of view. I got Vanguard to agree in principle to paying reps, and chefjoe helped Legion figure out a reasonable reps offer which you guys then accepted, having finally been moved from your white peace rock.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1288718829' post='2499963']
since when has e-lawyering on the OWF ever been for a purpose other than just being annoying for the sake of being annoying. Hell, you guys perfected this practice in the pre-Karma days
[/quote]

Yes because we picked apart intelligence clauses in treaties and everything.



(we didn't)

Please feel free to provide a bit more context to that scurrilous accusation, sir.

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288719768' post='2499971']
So, it is your contention that if Rafa hadn't joined my private channel that morning, there would have been a peace deal anyway?

You're funny.

Here's how it looks from my point of view. I got Vanguard to agree in principle to paying reps, and chefjoe helped Legion figure out a reasonable reps offer which you guys then accepted, having finally been moved from your white peace rock.
[/quote]
That's not what happened. At all.

My God, you're delusional. You do realise you're trying to tell me - the person that was the one and only determinant in regards to what Vanguard would and would not sign - what we agreed to and why, right? If there was any person or alliance that influenced our decision, it was Universalis, who desired that we seek peace. You, The Legion, and UPN were in a piss-weak bargaining position due to the fact that we had Ragnarok, Echelon and GGA just bursting to join and declare on each of you. The reality of the situation is the only reason Invicta was ever included - similar to The Legion - is that you were given scraps of information due to the eventual need of your signature on the final document.

But hey, keep on sucking up to Pacifica! One day you might be invited to the big boy's table.

[NLights]

Well this is just getting embarrassing.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288737954' post='2500170']
My God, you're delusional. You do realise you're trying to tell me - the person that was the one and only determinant in regards to what Vanguard would and would not sign - what we agreed to and why, right? If there was any person or alliance that influenced our decision, it was Universalis, who desired that we seek peace. You, The Legion, and UPN were in a piss-weak bargaining position due to the fact that we had Ragnarok, Echelon and GGA just bursting to join and declare on each of you. The reality of the situation is the only reason Invicta was ever included - similar to The Legion - is that you were given scraps of information due to the eventual need of your signature on the final document.
[/quote]
No, I'm telling you why our side made the offer it did.

You're claiming that NPO not attacking Vanguard then was because ... well some reason that is in your delusions.

I'm telling you I actually know why Vanguard got the offer that it did. chefjoe and I did all the work.

NPO wasn't involved, incidentally. They just didn't care enough to want to attack you.

That was my point.

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288737954' post='2500170']
But hey, keep on sucking up to Pacifica! One day you might be invited to the big boy's table.
[/quote]
My point was that this has absolutely nothing to do with Pacifica. It's you who's paranoid that they're still coming to get you.

[Goldie]

Haf you should spend more time worrying how you're going to make your alliance less awful, and less time worrying about how [b]we[/b] share [b]our[/b] intelligence between each other.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1288746911' post='2500310']
Haf you should spend more time worrying how you're going to make your alliance less awful, and less time worrying about how [b]we[/b] share [b]our[/b] intelligence between each other.
[/quote]
You do realize this whole subtopic in the thread was based on an offhand silly remark I made, right?

As for the relationship between me and my alliance, you probably should avoid commenting on things about which you know absolutely nothing at all.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288745877' post='2500281']
You're claiming that NPO not attacking Vanguard then was because ... well some reason that is in your delusions.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he's claiming it was because they were busy rolling somebody else at the time.

You might have picked that up if you, you know, payed attention.

[quote]
My point was that this has absolutely nothing to do with Pacifica. It's you who's paranoid that they're still coming to get you.
[/quote]

He was making fun of you(r alliance) being unable to have any real identity other than somebody else's lackey, it has little to do with paranoia. Again you'd get that if you payed attention.

[BlkAK47_002]

Why don't we just stop this pointless argument?

[Goldie]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288747171' post='2500316']
You do realize this whole subtopic in the thread was based on an offhand silly remark I made, right?

As for the relationship between me and my alliance, you probably should avoid commenting on things about which you know absolutely nothing at all.
[/quote]

I don't really dig for anything to objectively claim that Invicta is bad.

[Denial]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288745877' post='2500281']
No, I'm telling you why our side made the offer it did.

You're claiming that NPO not attacking Vanguard then was because ... well some reason that is in your delusions.

I'm telling you I actually know why Vanguard got the offer that it did. chefjoe and I did all the work.

NPO wasn't involved, incidentally. They just didn't care enough to want to attack you.

That was my point.


My point was that this has absolutely nothing to do with Pacifica. It's you who's paranoid that they're still coming to get you.
[/quote]

Wow, you're really all over the place here.

1) You had nothing to do with the Vanguard/Legion process besides being kept just informed enough so that Invicta would place its signature on the final agreement.

2) Pacifica and Valhalla did not attack Vanguard in the noCB War because: i) they were engaged elsewhere, ii) we shared mutual allies at the time: Ragnarok, TOP and Echelon, and iii) there was general disdain towards Legion and the rest of the Purple Sphere (I was getting fed logs of the main Coalition channel at the time, and my god did they say some interesting things about Legion/Invicta/UPN!).

3) Pacifica and Valhalla not attacking Vanguard during the noCB War thus does not prove that they were not looking for any excuse to roll us. Do you realise you are pointing to a major conflict, where both Pacifica and Valhalla were already militarily engaged, and saying "look, they didn't break 3 treaties to attack you in the middle of a global war!" as proof that Pacifica and Valhalla did not want to see Vanguard burn?

4) Vanguard did not "get the offer". We received a demand from Legion for $3billion, then $2billion in reparations. We laughed these demands off, and said we would only pay a token sum (in the area of what was eventually paid), or we would continue with the war and have Echelon, Ragnarok and GGA hit Legion/UPN/Invicta. As has been previously mentioned, the prime reason why we sought an end to a conflict we were quite clearly dominating is so that the aforementioned allies would not be fighting on multiple fronts (they were engaged elsewhere due to the nature of the noCB War).

5) Pacifica and Valhalla both worked assiduously, on numerous occasions, to isolate us in an attempt to have us rolled. Any government members from Ragnarok and Echelon that were in power at the time could testify to this fact. As Ragnarok and Echelon were mutual allies between Vanguard and Pacifica/Valhalla, they were often called upon to mediate conflicts (conflicts that would have erupted into war had there not been said treaty barriers). Ragnarok in particularl could testify to the lengths that Pacifica and Valhalla went to in trying to get Ragnarok (and many of our other allies) to cancel on us.

6) Hell, NPO et al would even go to alliances such as MK and GR and express just how much they desired to see us burn (this is post-noCB War), with not-so-subtle hints that the aforementioned alliances should drop their ties to us.

7) Your last claim makes absolutely no sense. Where exactly have we ever been talking about current-era Pacifica? I really don't see how you could possibly twist a discussion regarding the history of relations between Vanguard and Pacifica/Valhalla, and your consistent and perpetual irrelevancy, into something to do with paranoia regarding Pacifica "coming to get me". I mean, the main point of discussion, Vanguard, doesn't even exist any more. If you're going to try and make insults, at least put some thought into them.

8) You're an idiot. Stop running your mouth about issues you do not comprehend or have any knowledge of, and focus on getting Invicta out of Pacifica's collective colon and towards some sort of shape where one could call it a decent alliance without having a sarcastic smirk on one's face.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Denial

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288747171' post='2500316']
As for the relationship between me and my alliance, you probably should avoid commenting on things about which you know absolutely nothing at all.
[/quote]
This is excellent general advice but I feel I should point out you fail to do this all the time.

[Der Kommissar]

[color="#FF0000"][b]And now that this thread lost all connection with the OP, it's time to end this for good.[/b][/color]