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The Doom House Accords


lebubu

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[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288405340' post='2496815']
We have an obligation to defend GOONS and Umbrella. We do not have an obligation to defend VE, iFOK and PC (nor do they have an obligation to defend us).

The difference is as simple as that.
[/quote]GOONS and Umbrella will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. MK will always stand by GOONS and Umbrella. Therefore, MK will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state will all stand by MK for similar reasons.

It's the transitive property of treaties, and everyone knows full well what kind of relationship exists between the signatories of this agreement. Trying to deny it is a massive stretch of logic and reality.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288406682' post='2496822']
GOONS and Umbrella will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. MK will always stand by GOONS and Umbrella. Therefore, MK will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state will all stand by MK for similar reasons.

It's the transitive property of treaties, and everyone knows full well what kind of relationship exists between the signatories of this agreement. Trying to deny it is a massive stretch of logic and reality.
[/quote]
If that was the case, don't you think we would have joined Pandora's Box?

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[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1288407112' post='2496827']
Considering that HeroofTime55's post is, partially, correct, why didn't you join Pandora's Box?
[/quote]
We're still a little touchy about the VEto, obviously.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288406214' post='2496818']
I thought Karma said something about not policing dissent on the public forums, but here you are, stretching things beyond all reason just so you can puff your chests out and look all touch like. Good job! It's all happening just like everyone thought it would.
[/quote]

I don't see you at EZI for your words. How is that "policing"?

[spoiler]It's not![/spoiler]

Edited by Mr Damsky
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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288406214' post='2496818']
I thought Karma said something about not policing dissent on the public forums, but here you are, stretching things beyond all reason just so you can puff your chests out and look all touch like. Good job! It's all happening just like everyone thought it would.
[/quote]

No, try again, sorry. The meaning of the phrase is well-known and it does not imply positive feelings towards the grouping, so I don't see how it's being stretched outside of the obtuse "oh I really didn't mean it, I'm just using it in a way it normally isn't." I don't see any people threatening individuals or alliances with ZI for dissenting. People used to be afraid to post and give their actual opinions, so really this is a stretch on your part rather than anyone else's.

Edited by Antoine Roquentin
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[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1288407707' post='2496835']
I don't see you at EZI for your words. How is that "policing"?

[spoiler]It's not![/spoiler]
[/quote]Right, and NPO and friends also never attacked people just for saying things either. Yet everyone always whined about how the NPO was somehow 'oppressing' them.

Not that I think you're oppressing me, because I don't, just as NPO never really oppressed anyone else's speech, they just puffed out their chests in the same way you do now, tossing veiled threats whenever something is said that they didn't like.

Just pointing out how you continue to do everything you swore against, which regardless of how trivial and silly it is, you still swore against it.

This diverges from the topic at hand though, so lets just leave it at that. I'm sure that nobody wants another rehash of the endless back and forth bickering.

[hr]
If you want my analysis of what this treaty does, well, it does interesting things. For one, MK can never be allowed into PB with this treaty active, because if they did join, it would create a clear hierarchy within the bloc. Now, some alliances, like FOK's vassal state, are used to second class status, but I don't think VE's massive ego can work with being a second-rate member. Remember, VE wants to run the show, and as much as they mock with their stale little "VEto" joke, it's been confirmed by the leak from their membership.

Beyond that, it has the slightest potential to help tear apart PB in the distant future. If this was a four member treaty with a third member of PB, that capacity would be extended greatly, but with only 2 signatories, it's weak at best. For those who would laugh at this idea, just look what the UJP did to WUT. Beyond being a smaller fraction, PB also benefits from it's infancy. But eventually, with MK being prohibited from joining by the aforementioned tiering that would occur, this agreement will work against PB. Syncing is not possible in the long term, and it is always the bigger bloc that collapses first.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288406682' post='2496822']
GOONS and Umbrella will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. MK will always stand by GOONS and Umbrella. Therefore, MK will always stand by VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state. VE, PC, FOK, and its vassal state will all stand by MK for similar reasons.

It's the transitive property of treaties, and everyone knows full well what kind of relationship exists between the signatories of this agreement. Trying to deny it is a massive stretch of logic and reality.
[/quote]
History does not support your theory.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288409026' post='2496852']
Right, and NPO and friends also never attacked people just for saying things either. Yet everyone always whined about how the NPO was somehow 'oppressing' them.

Not that I think you're oppressing me, because I don't, just as NPO never really oppressed anyone else's speech, they just puffed out their chests in the same way you do now, tossing veiled threats whenever something is said that they didn't like.[/quote]
You might have a point if there weren't countless examples of individuals being placed on PZI lists for their commentary on the forum during that era. Not to mention the more private threats of war against entire alliances if one or two members happened to post something that wasn't favourable towards Pacifica.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288409026' post='2496852']
If you want my analysis of what this treaty does, well, it does interesting things. For one, MK can never be allowed into PB with this treaty active, because if they did join, it would create a clear hierarchy within the bloc. Now, some alliances, like FOK's vassal state, are used to second class status, but I don't think VE's massive ego can work with being a second-rate member. Remember, VE wants to run the show, and as much as they mock with their stale little "VEto" joke, it's been confirmed by the leak from their membership.

Beyond that, it has the slightest potential to help tear apart PB in the distant future. If this was a four member treaty with a third member of PB, that capacity would be extended greatly, but with only 2 signatories, it's weak at best. For those who would laugh at this idea, just look what the UJP did to WUT. Beyond being a smaller fraction, PB also benefits from it's infancy. But eventually, with MK being prohibited from joining by the aforementioned tiering that would occur, this agreement will work against PB. Syncing is not possible in the long term, and it is always the bigger bloc that collapses first.
[/quote]
Hahaha.

You really have no clue whatsoever. I almost pity you; it's a little like watching a UPN member trying to figure out the war system.

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288409026' post='2496852']
Right, and NPO and friends also never attacked people just for saying things either. Yet everyone always whined about how the NPO was somehow 'oppressing' them.
[/quote]

Some of the secret terms during WoTC against Polar were banning certain members of Polar from speaking in these areas.

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[quote name='Ryuzaki' timestamp='1288409573' post='2496862']
History does not support your theory.
[/quote]History has yet to provide a threat that could actually challenge the current hegemony to the point where they need to pool all their resources. But if it gets to that point, at least in the near future with both treaties as fresh as they are, rest assured that they will.

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[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288409781' post='2496864']
it's a little like watching a UPN member trying to figure out the war system.
[/quote]You wound me, good sir.

At any rate, I'm sure someone somewhere has IRC logs of NPO stifling speech if such situations occurred as often as you claim, feel free to PM me them if you can come up with any, I would be honestly curious to read them.

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Comment about hegemony. Disparaging remark against MK's character. Barbed comment about GOONS being evil. Comment about the clingy girlfriendness and terrible fashion sense of Umbrella.

Resignation towards the future of Bob.

Edited by KagetheSecond
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[quote name='KagetheSecond' timestamp='1288410785' post='2496892']
Comment about hegemony. Disparaging remark against MK's character. Barbed comment about GOONS being evil.

Resignation towards the future of Bob.
[/quote]

The flags were changed to accommodate us. Are we chopped liver? The Umbrella flag is custom #76 by the way.

Edited by Antoine Roquentin
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[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1288411465' post='2496905']
The flags were changed to accommodate us. Are we chopped liver? The Umbrella flag is custom #76 by the way.
[/quote]
You have terrible fashion sense. Matching is so lame. And you're clingy.

I had trouble thinking of something the first time throgh :/

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[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1288410501' post='2496873']
At any rate, I'm sure someone somewhere has IRC logs of NPO stifling speech if such situations occurred as often as you claim, feel free to PM me them if you can come up with any, I would be honestly curious to read them.
[/quote]
My own history is enough evidence. I was placed on the PZI list of all Initiative signatories, with the exception of VE, following my commentary in the post-Great War era. As were many of my comrades. The result was that we had to reroll, and even then, we were constantly threatened because i) we spoke our minds, and ii) because certain people would not let our previous identities go. I'm not in the habit of maintaining logs from years back, but any of our allies at the time - specifically, Ragnarok and Echelon - could attest to the fact that Pacifica, Valhalla, and others, were looking for any excuse to roll us. Similar experiences were had in the early days of the Mushroom Kingdom, to the point where they created an entire department that was focused on monitoring what was said in public venues.

I realise you were just an irrelevant leech on the underbelly of the Hegemony during that era (not much has changed, I guess), and thus probably weren't privy to much of the information regarding their actions, yet to claim that there was anywhere near the freedom to express dissent back then as there is now is just blatant misinformation.

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[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1288412388' post='2496937']
My own history is enough evidence. I was placed on the PZI list of all Initiative signatories, with the exception of VE, following my commentary in the post-Great War era. As were many of my comrades. The result was that we had to reroll, and even then, we were constantly threatened because i) we spoke our minds, and ii) because certain people would not let our previous identities go. I'm not in the habit of maintaining logs from years back, but any of our allies at the time - specifically, Ragnarok and Echelon - could attest to the fact that Pacifica, Valhalla, and others, were looking for any excuse to roll us. Similar experiences were had in the early days of the Mushroom Kingdom, to the point where they created an entire department that was focused on monitoring what was said in public venues.

I realise you were just an irrelevant leech on the underbelly of the Hegemony during that era (not much has changed, I guess), and thus probably weren't privy to much of the information regarding their actions, yet to claim that there was anywhere near the freedom to express dissent back then as there is now is just blatant misinformation.
[/quote]

Stop oppressing the poor man, Denial. Your application of reasoned and informed argument marks you down as a belligerent, intolerant hegemonist of the worst stripe. Despicable.

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[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1288412809' post='2496946']
Stop oppressing the poor man, Denial. Your application of reasoned and informed argument marks you down as a belligerent, intolerant hegemonist of the worst stripe. Despicable.
[/quote]He's oppressing me! Did you see him oppressing me?

(Besides the fact that I already stated I view it as nothing more than prepubescent chest-puffing)

Oh, and while we're at it, I did enjoy the "irrelevant leech on the underbelly of the Hegemony" line. I might just have to make another sig out of that, I think it's an instant classic.

Was a little confused by the "not much has changed" bit, unless Denial means to imply NPO and Co. are still running this show?

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