The Viridian Entente

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1285909318' post='2470769']
Excuse me?

The bolded is evidant.

Things you are wrong about: We did not take part in the GPA war. Our treaties with GOD (our longest standing ally), Rok, RIA, and other all existed [i]far [/i]before the Karma war. We never funneled any information, and never, ever were accused of such. We did not act in "each and every one" of NPO's curbstomps, we acted in the Wolf Pack war, and thats one, as in singular. We canceled on NPO over a month prior to things that had nothing to do with karma, please read my last post for more details.

That's pretty much your whole post. As you noted, you have no idea what your talking about, so why did you even bother writing it down?
[/quote]

Like I said in my first point, I enjoy a good debate.
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=14394&st=0"]VE's Declaration in the GPA war[/url]

You were not part of the GPA war? Now we can go back and forth on weather you actually gave military support or not, but you were fully ready to and that makes you just as guilty as having attacked.

My involvement in this tread is nothing more than good natured fun, if I offend, I apologize.

Edit:

Karma was planned a year before it happen, it did not just happen, the way the pieces fell as in which alliance Pacifica rolled may have been a variable, but there is no question that you had knowledge that KARMA was going to happen, with that knowledge you acted, as a politically self serving alliance would.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Muddog

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285911038' post='2470796']
Like I said in my first point, I enjoy a good debate.
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=14394&st=0"]VE's Declaration in the GPA war[/url]

You were not part of the GPA war? Now we can go back and forth on weather you actually gave military support or not, but you were fully ready to and that makes you just as guilty as having attacked.

My involvement in this tread is nothing more than good natured fun, if I offend, I apologize.
[/quote]

You offend by spewing incorrect garbage. The fact that you note the lack of offensive declarations tells that you recognize the connotation it implies. You want to say we enabled NPO? During that period, I certainly wont argue against it and don't look back fondly upon that time. Saying we are hypocrites is something entirely different, and something which you entirely ignored in your response.

Where is us participating in "every single curb stomp" as you so boldly proclaimed as fact? Where is us bailing on NPO on the eve of Karma which you cited as a side change? Was it not a month before, the first major cancellation on them, and over something entirely separate? Where is us signing treaties with Karma in the lead up to the war? Where is the hypocrisy? Show it to me.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1285911294' post='2470802']
You offend by spewing incorrect garbage. The fact that you note the lack of offensive declarations tells that you recognize the connotation it implies. You want to say we enabled NPO? During that period, I certainly wont argue against it and don't look back fondly upon that time. Saying we are hypocrites is something entirely different, and something which you entirely ignored in your response.

Where is us participating in "every single curb stomp" as you so boldly proclaimed as fact? Where is us bailing on NPO on the eve of Karma which you cited as a side change? Was it not a month before, the first major cancellation on them, and over something entirely separate? Where is us signing treaties with Karma in the lead up to the war? Where is the hypocrisy? Show it to me.
[/quote]

I truly hope, your not upset. I'll move into my rebuttal of all arguments made.

My first point was the UJW, I conseeded that point to you, as I could find nothing more to back up the point.

Now, you can use logical fallacies to refute my point in the GPA war, but you were committed to helping the NPO in that war; your involvement in the Wolf pack war is another example of your supporting the NPO curb stomps, I didn't say you were involved in every NPO curb stomp, but that you could have walked away during any one of them. Hypocrisy is that your alliance will not own up to the crimes you committed along side the NPO, simply saying yea we did it, sorry wasn't enough to free the NPO of their crimes, nor is it for you and its hypocrisy to think it should.

Following that my next point was your reasons for cancelling on polar, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26226"]This tidbit[/url] is rather interesting as it does show that the general public was aware of the war on Polar being in the near future, something I'm sure weighed in on the decision to cancel the treaty. Again we can go back and forth on this issue you can spin it one way and I the other, but you canselled on Polaris knowing full well they were on the block. Hypocrisy in this is that you deny it.

I'm not arguing your treaties don't predate KARMA, I'm saying the only reason you left the NPO camp was because you knew well ahead of time that KARMA was coming, which is an act becoming of a Self serving alliance.

[Biazt]

[quote name='jeff barr' timestamp='1285910912' post='2470794']
....[i]what?[/i]

2007: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

2010: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

Welp, you're right. No antagonising or comparisons here whatsoever.
[/quote]
You can apply this faulty logic to almost every alliance that has ever been curbstomped. Keep reaching.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Biazt

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285912892' post='2470826']
I truly hope, your not upset. I'll move into my rebuttal of all arguments made.

My first point was the UJW, I conseeded that point to you, as I could find nothing more to back up the point.

Now, you can use logical fallacies to refute my point in the GPA war, but you were committed to helping the NPO in that war; your involvement in the Wolf pack war is another example of your supporting the NPO curb stomps, I didn't say you were involved in every NPO curb stomp, but that you could have walked away during any one of them. Hypocrisy is that your alliance will not own up to the crimes you committed along side the NPO, simply saying yea we did it, sorry wasn't enough to free the NPO of their crimes, nor is it for you and its hypocrisy to think it should. [/quote]

Firstly, you did in fact say "you acted in each and ever one", and we did no such thing. We gave a DoS v. GPA, and the only one we fought in was Wolf Pack. You are equating enabling to hypocrisy in this regard, and the two concepts are by no means congruent. Secondly, we could have walked away, as could have any of NPO's other 1,000 allies. It's unfortunate how things were, and be happy that things no longer are that way. Thirdly, we did more then say we were sorry, we stood up when enough was enough. You apparently are one of those conspiracy theorists who think karma was planned a year in advance and whatnot, but those of us with are feet gounded in reality know how things went, and know that Viridias cancellation was far before any notion of "Karma" existed.

[quote]
Following that my next point was your reasons for cancelling on polar, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26226"]This tidbit[/url] is rather interesting as it does show that the general public was aware of the war on Polar being in the near future, something I'm sure weighed in on the decision to cancel the treaty. Again we can go back and forth on this issue you can spin it one way and I the other, but you canselled on Polaris knowing full well they were on the block. Hypocrisy in this is that you deny it. [/quote]

As I said a few pages ago, I simply cannot speak to things surrounding the Polar incident. I was a battalion lieutenant at the time and didn't care to read this forum very much. What I do know is that if this is the one point anyone had to claim hypocrisy over, its rather sad, because it is very, very old and one issue does not a pattern make.

[quote]
I'm not [b]arguing [/b]your treaties don't predate KARMA, I'm saying the only reason you left the NPO camp was because you knew well ahead of time that KARMA was coming, which is an act becoming of a Self serving alliance.
[/quote]

Your not arguing anything, your simply saying things. Evidence says otherwise, there was a well known falling out over something concrete and factual that actually happened (spawning pages of logs that circulated all over the planet), and we canceled because of how we were treated by our "allies" at the time in this incident. Now, your claim is that the aforementioned was all a front, that Karma got together a year earlier and planned and manipulated their way into making all of that happen. Oh, and you have nothing to support that claim besides the fact that you said it. Therefore, you draw the conclusion that we are hypocrites. Tell me, does that make much since to you when laid out plainly?

Edited October 1, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1285914220' post='2470848']
Firstly, you did in fact say "you acted in each and ever one", and we did no such thing. We gave a DoS v. GPA, and the only one we fought in was Wolf Pack. You are equating enabling to hypocrisy in this regard, and the two concepts are by no means congruent. Secondly, we could have walked away, as could have any of NPO's other 1,000 allies. It's shamefully how things were, and be fortunate that things no longer are that way. Thirdly, we did more then say we were sorry, we stood up when enough was enough. You apparently are one of those conspiracy theorists who think karma was planned a year in advance and whatnot, but those of us with are feet gounded in reality know how things went, and know that Viridias cancellation was far before any notion of "Karma" existed.



As I said a few pages ago, I simply cannot speak to things surrounding the Polar incident. I was a battalion lieutenant at the time and didn't care to read this forum very much. What I do know is that if this is the one point anyone had to claim hypocrisy over, its rather sad, because it is very, very old and one issue does not a pattern make.



Your not arguing anything, your simply saying things. Evidence says otherwise, there was a well known falling out over something concrete and factual that actually happened (spawning pages of logs that circulated all over the planet), and we canceled because of how we were treated by our "allies" at the time in this incident. Now, your claim is that the aforementioned was all a front, that Karma got together a year earlier and planned and manipulated their way into making all of that happen. Oh, and you have nothing to support that claim besides the fact that you said it. Therefore, you draw the conclusion that we are hypocrites. Tell me, does that make much since to you when laid out plainly?
[/quote]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, just not experienced in the ways of the world.

As I have reached the end of my involvement in this thread, I'll refer back to my first post, have nothing against VE. I do however; enjoy a good discussion of logic and reason. Anything I have said is purely for the nature of this argument and drawn together for that purpose, I have no quarrel with VE and so I thank you for a good debate and wish you well.

[Argin]

Honestly arguments like this really piss me off. You want to claim that VE acted in a politically motivated way during its reformation? Yes that's true, we had absolutely no other way of coming back. During the period in between the existence of Viridia I was a member of at least two or three of the post-VE alliances that were plotting how to re-form Viridia and in each alliance the feeling was that we had a huge target on our backs ready to shoot us at the first sign of trouble.

During this time I had come back under a different nation name to protect my identify, I don't remember the details of it but GOONS ended up finding out and attacking me and what I feared most at that point was that I would be putting other Viridians in risk of attack. Basically put we were afraid, not so much that we would be attacked, but that our dream of a reborn Viridia would never come true. So we did what we had to, we're not proud of it, but we did it.

With that said, to accuse Viridia of acting in politically motivated ways at any other point in it's history is simply not true.

Every time there's a shift in politics people accuse VE of hypocrisy and being a horrible alliance but the truth is we have always stuck with those that have treated us as friends, and we have always had friends on different sides of the moral spectrum. Our oldest ally of all is GOD, and its no mistake that they are also our best and most loyal friends. With that said they are also an alliance which is very strongly on the other side of the moral spectrum that many of us envision.

Friendship is the reason VE allied to NPO after GWI when no one else would, friendship is the reason VE helped bring CIS into Initiative when no one else wanted them, lack of friendship is why VE left the Initiative and tried to join GUARD (although we were denied because they saw a target on our back), disrespecting us and our friends by attacking them is the reason VE cancled on NpO and NPO, friendship is why VE has/had treaties with both Ninjas and GOONS and is still friends with both.

No VE is not a perfect alliance and yes we do change over time, there have been things in our past, VERY recent past, that I am not proud of, but I'd say we have a damn good track record. And no one who has ever seen VE's inner workings should ever expect us to stop changing because even on the most minor of details membership can never agree on what course the alliance should take.

I found long ago that the one constant effect of these threads it to make Viridians even more proud and resilient, because say what you will but we know the truth behind Viridia, and that truth is a beautiful one.

[D34th]

VE is just one more case of alliances who used NPO for protection and took part in their crimes just to abandon the ship when it wasn't profitable anymore.

Edited October 1, 2010 by D34th

[Kroknia]

[quote name='jeff barr' timestamp='1285910912' post='2470794']
....[i]what?[/i]

2007: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

2010: "Wtf guys, why are you doing that?"

"lol who cares, bawwwwww. Do something about it"

*something is done*

"Queue half a dozen of the strongest alliances on Bob rolling those who did something about it"

Welp, you're right. No antagonising or comparisons here whatsoever.
[/quote]

In 07 there was a clear difference. Neutral Shoving was doing things that people should say "WTF guys, why are you doing that?"

In 10 all I've seen is CNARF advocates and people that seem to not understand that shoving and sadism are different beings antagonizing GOONS for tech raiding or in FnKas case, for having former tR members in the alliance. Where have the GOONS created threads about how they run the black Senate? Where is the new version of shark week? Where are they flooding threads that don't involve them to insult and threaten other alliances? Hell, where are they threatening alliances at all? All they say is "If you don't like what we do, ok. We're going to do it anyways. If you can't handle that, do something about it or stop harassing us please." Most people do that. I was in Sparta in the GUARD days and into the UJW. I was gov in fact. I KNOW the old GOONS. I also know these and they are not the same.

Think what you will about the new GOONS and their actions, but please at least try and understand the circumstances and the incredible differences between Sadism and Shoving. You look like an ignorant fool trying to state they are the same entity.

[Banksy]

I heard VE once changed leaders too. And some new members once joined. [i]Heathens[/i].

[Trikoupis]

[quote name='Kroknia' timestamp='1285932837' post='2470956']
Where is the new version of shark week?[/quote]

Man, i felt like in a time machine after you dug this up .

While i wholeheartedly disaggree with tech raiding of micro alliances, i do aggree that people tend to exagerate and compare totally different things.

Also, opportunism is the very essence of successfull politics, but it always serves a purpose. And usually people condemning "opportunism" have in reality a disaggreement with the purpose it serves. But that's how propaganda works i guess...

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Cornelius' timestamp='1285901851' post='2470614']
VE cancelled on NpO for one reason, and one reason alone: their declaration on FIST with little warning to us. There was no opportunism, the mass cancellations didn't start until after the Ardus-Sponge logs, which didn't occur until several days after we dropped the treaty with NpO.
[/quote]
Yes, that's right; the mass cancellations didn't start until VE government decided to start campaigning for them.

[raasaa]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1285905106' post='2470679']
[color="#FF0000"]The facts are pretty cut and dry. VE betrayed NpO.[/color]
[/quote]
I concur.

So, which is the next alliance that VE plans to betray

[Monster]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285912892' post='2470826']
I'm not arguing your treaties don't predate KARMA, I'm saying the only reason you left the NPO camp was because you knew well ahead of time that KARMA was coming, which is an act becoming of a Self serving alliance.
[/quote]

Yeah, no. Karma was not decided the times VE put itself on the line. The One Vision cancellations were pleasing to see as I wanted something to happen because people moving away from them was a good thing(given how long the Gre Q withdrawal took), but they were by no means a result of thinking they had the war won. In fact, many people thought they were putting themselves in danger.

The first time you could say what would become Karma gathered was during the VE(on the VE side)-Int/ODN/IRON issue and it wasn't exactly the same sides. ODN and Int ended up becoming part of Karma, after all. It quickly fizzled until April. The war was definitely not decided then.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Antoine Roquentin

[Centurius]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285900714' post='2470585']
I have nothing against VE. I do however; enjoy a good discussion of logic and reason. Taking on the points that The MVP has pointed out, it is quite possible that VE has been politically playing the field in their advantage. By using the treaty web to place themselves in profitable locations to allow for the least amount of damage and the most to gain, they have effectively jumped sides in each major war following their recreation. Much the same as the ODN, MHA, Sparta, or a whole host of others, every time the winds of change shift they begin to move pieces into place to allow for victory.

You can claim this was due to an internal mental shift, but the question then becomes what caused that change of mind. Yes people do grow over time, and our opinions change, but they change for a reason. I’ll call it for preservation purposes, it was in VE’s best interest to change Government, polices, and treaties to best suit their survival strategy. Had VE not jumped sides following their reformation they would not have lived long as at the time GGA would have “removed” them, had they not changed sides during the Unjust War, they would have followed the same fate as the 1st GOONS, \m/, or would have faced the disgrace that hit the TPF.

Now you can call it whatever you want, but their history shows they did change sides once again, [b]by distancing themselves from Polar and allies during the No-CB war[/b]. By dropping treaties that would put them in unprofitable locations they effectively had another shift of opinion. During that war they played the part of the good bureaucrat and supported what was profitable for them. They did not have a huge political following at the time so it was better to follow than try and lead a flock. At this time the NPO also controlled a large portion of the world and could have just as easily removed the VE, had they sided with Polar.

Moving into the Karma war, VE’s internal opinions changed again, this time they wanted to side with Karma, knowing that attitudes were changing and that the world would find its self at war, they began to plot along with the rest of KARMA, NPO’s down fall. It was easy because at this point they had sided with NPO 3 times in the last war, so they had access to NPO’s thoughts and arguably their future actions. That would be a huge help in KARMA’s timing as they would need NPO to “mess” up before they could act, however KARMA had to have some idea of when the actions would take place, as it takes months to fully mobilize a coalition of alliances.

Again, I have nothing against VE, simply taking a side in a debate over hypocrisy. Was VE hypocritical in changing sides since their reformation? Yes, they claim to be strong allies, however their history shows that when things are unprofitable for them, their mindsets, and opinions tend to change to support the winning side of the conflict, outside of the war that lead to their disbandment, VE has had a history of self preservation even if that meant leaving allies behind. It can be spun any way you want to, growth, change of heart, change of opinion, but regardless something had to trigger that change, I stand firmly behind the idea that it changed so that every action was most profitable to VE’s own interest. Their history supports every claim I have made with exception to why their opinions changed when they did, that can only be speculated at this point.
[/quote]

I'd like to challenge this point, while it is true VE had cancelled on the NpO well before noCB they by no means dropped all their treaties to the F>I side in that conflict. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=13574"]The V accords[/url], a treaty signed by NV and VE was never dropped, the only reason it was not activated in the war was because both NV and VE agreed to not doing it. However I am certain if NV had really asked back then VE wouldn't have been reluctant to defend.

Now onto the apparent main subject of this thread. I will admit myself and Nueva Vida are not fans of GOONS so I do believe my opinion has quite some legitimacy.

VE is an alliance build upon honor and friendship, if you show them the respect and courtesy they deserve you will receive it. GOONS while controversial due to its tech raiding policy is constantly compared to the old incarnation. In most cases this comparison is made unjustly. The new VE and the new GOONS do not face these past grudges anymore and from my own talks with GOONS leadership I can understand why VE saw it fit to sign a treaty with them. As has been repeated several times in this thread.

No alliance will maintain the same foreign policy forever. Governments change, memberships change. From my own experiences with my allies, NpO has a different government and they have a different foreign policy than 2 years ago too. NV has made a major shift from its BLEU times and the entire government was either not in NV or not in government 2 years ago. My point being, alliances change, GOONS is not the bully the first incarnation was, VE still a honorable alliance has changed its opinion too. No alliance is the same as they were 2-3 years ago. Most alliances can not even be compared to their past at all. So guys lets just respect the current government of VE and respect the ability of alliances to change, please.

[Mathias]

VE, you are total hypocrites. No other alliance in this game has [b]ever[/b] allied someone they fought against at one point. That's [b]never[/b] happened.

[potato]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1285940835' post='2471020']
VE, you are total hypocrites. No other alliance in this game has [b]ever[/b] allied someone they fought against at one point. That's [b]never[/b] happened.
[/quote]

And certainly not TheMVP in his previous incarnations.

[Somedude]

In response to the first post:

It's not called hypocrisy, it's called evaluating certain situations based upon the current political climate.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285912892' post='2470826']Now, you can use logical fallacies to refute my point in the GPA war, but you were committed to helping the NPO in that war; your involvement in the Wolf pack war is another example of your supporting the NPO curb stomps, I didn't say you were involved in every NPO curb stomp, but that you could have walked away during any one of them. Hypocrisy is that your alliance will not own up to the crimes you committed along side the NPO, simply saying yea we did it, sorry wasn't enough to free the NPO of their crimes, nor is it for you and its hypocrisy to think it should.

Following that my next point was your reasons for cancelling on polar, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26226"]This tidbit[/url] is rather interesting as it does show that the general public was aware of the war on Polar being in the near future, something I'm sure weighed in on the decision to cancel the treaty. Again we can go back and forth on this issue you can spin it one way and I the other, but you canselled on Polaris knowing full well they were on the block. Hypocrisy in this is that you deny it.

I'm not arguing your treaties don't predate KARMA, I'm saying the only reason you left the NPO camp was because you knew well ahead of time that KARMA was coming, which is an act becoming of a Self serving alliance.
[/quote]
We spied nukes from GPA during the GPA war, NPO knew at the time we wouldn't go any further. Not that they needed the help anyway, but if push came to shove the MADP would've been cancelled a year early. We could've walked away, yes, but we felt that doing so was tantamount to suicide. After all, we were destroyed the last time that happened. And as we'd be condemning some friends of ours that were as determined as us to not let history repeat itself, we kept our heads down. As for your link, if you check the date you'll note that it was posted the day [i]after[/i] we cancelled our treaty with NpO. Ardus admitted he took advantage of the situation after, but that was still after the bridge had been burned. And for the last time, we had no idea Karma was coming until right before the war itself, and we had no idea of it succeeding until after war broke out. Others might have, but we certainly didn't.
[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285934264' post='2470972']
Yes, that's right; the mass cancellations didn't start until VE government decided to start campaigning for them.
[/quote]
Ardus already admitted he caught a lot of flak from us for some of the stuff he pulled around the time.
[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1285935213' post='2470980']
Yeah, no. Karma was not decided the times VE put itself on the line. The One Vision cancellations were pleasing to see as I wanted something to happen because people moving away from them was a good thing(given how long the Gre Q withdrawal took), but they were by no means a result of thinking they had the war won. In fact, many people thought they were putting themselves in danger.

The first time you could say what would become Karma gathered was during the VE(on the VE side)-Int/ODN/IRON issue and it wasn't exactly the same sides. ODN and Int ended up becoming part of Karma, after all. It quickly fizzled until April. The war was definitely not decided then.
[/quote]
Right, that was our biggest fear when we made that move, that we were condemning our alliance. I didn't breathe easily until NPO's allies seemingly abandoned them after Karma started.
[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1285940227' post='2471013']<snip>
[/quote]
I just want to say that you're right, had you asked us for assistance we would not have hesitated. We weren't exactly in favor of either side in the conflict, and stated as much in our eventual DoW, and were brought in through our treaties.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1285940227' post='2471013']
...VE still a honorable alliance has changed its opinion too. No alliance is the same as they were 2-3 years ago. Most alliances can not even be compared to their past at all. So guys lets just respect the current government of VE and respect the ability of alliances to change, please.
[/quote]
I can name at least one specific incident in the past month that VE did not act honorably, so I'll have to disagree on the "honorable alliance" bit.


[quote name='Smooth' timestamp='1285907793' post='2470745']
Yeah, because we could have entered that war [i]without[/i] being on the side of someone who killed us.

Also, GOONs was a huge driving force behind destroying us. Never really liked VE when we were Initiative together.
[/quote]
GGA was a bigger driving force to destroying you, heck the war was started because GGA wanted to, and you came back directly allied to GGA. GGA orchastrated that war, but at the time when you came back the PR campaign to push all the wrong doings of Polar and GGA and to place them solely at the hands of the Unjust was in full swing, and too many bought into that propoganda lie.

[leprecon]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1285900714' post='2470585']
Moving into the Karma war, VE’s internal opinions changed again, this time they wanted to side with Karma, knowing that attitudes were changing and that the world would find its self at war, they began to plot along with the rest of KARMA, NPO’s down fall. It was easy because at this point they had sided with NPO 3 times in the last war, so they had access to NPO’s thoughts and arguably their future actions. That would be a huge help in KARMA’s timing as they would need NPO to “mess” up before they could act, however KARMA had to have some idea of when the actions would take place, as it takes months to fully mobilize a coalition of alliances.

Their history supports every claim I have made with exception to why their opinions changed when they did, that can only be speculated at this point.
[/quote]

Firstly, I think I explained why VE and NpO weren't best buddies anymore. [size="1"](if you care enough, look back a few pages. Though I doubt you care and you are just rehashing what you heard others say)[/size]
Second, NPO attacked our MDAP partner. No evil plot to overthrow our former allies, you just don't attack MDAP partners, just like you don't attack protectorates. (looking at you NpO)
Though I get it if you think that what happened between NpO and VE is unjust (I would simply disagree with you) you cannot argue that we acted wrong when NPO attacked our MADP partner. They attacked OV. That is all there is to it. No evil plot or anything. They attacked our very close ally and that is something we (and hopefully others) do not tolerate. Even if you think that war was unjust and that everybody was just looking to kill NPO, of all the alliances involved in what could have been the NPO-OV war, VE had the most reason to fight.

[Cornelius]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1285951747' post='2471168']GGA was a bigger driving force to destroying you, heck the war was started because GGA wanted to, and you came back directly allied to GGA. GGA orchastrated that war, but at the time when you came back the PR campaign to push all the wrong doings of Polar and GGA and to place them solely at the hands of the Unjust was in full swing, and too many bought into that propoganda lie.
[/quote]
The reasoning behind allying with GGA was rather simple: 1. they were allied to NpO, and thus we couldn't attack them and 2. we wanted to be back on Green, even if only half the alliance was allowed there. The other half mostly stayed on blue in thanks to NpO, again. If getting back on Green wasn't so important to us, we would've reformed on blue and had nothing to do with the GGA. Besides, GGA ended up destroying itself.

And to be fair Leprecon, we weren't the only alliance directly tied to OV. GOD and Vanguard had every right to be there, and you could argue that anybody holding a MADP with them also had the same right (which included the SF and C&G blocs).

[Felix von Agnu]

MVP, I would first like to thank you for the history lesson, but I would like to remind you that irony does not equal hypocrisy.

See, alliances are made of of various individuals, and ran by a small subset of those individuals. It is not unheard of that the ruling subset changes, thus meaning new individuals are in, and/or old individuals are in. When new people enter that subset they bring new ideas, thoughts, and friendships with them. It's only natural that an alliance will change direction as new rules replace the old. Assuming an alliance is a static construct is really naive.

On the topic of GOONS, I really think they chose the short end of the stick when they chose their name. I can't say I agree with all of their policies, but I can say that they have proved themselves worth a chance. If we were to sit and give no alliance a chance at redemption, then nothing would change at all. Everyone would be hating each other into perpetuity.

[wickedj]

Silly, AUT, dont you know? VE never [i]disbanded[/i] they merely took a [i]hiatus[/i] as they planned to reform all along

[Solaris]

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1285905106' post='2470679']
[color="#FF0000"]The facts are pretty cut and dry. VE betrayed NpO.[/color]
[/quote]The facts are pretty cut and dry. Your institutional madness, specifically your declaration of war on our ally in an insulting manner, and your arrogance was what betrayed NpO. And it's still eating you away.