GOONS owes me $90,000,000

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283831252' post='2444831']
Most of the people posting here are the same people I'd expect to agree with nearly anything Schattenman says, so I'm not too concerned about that.

For your benefit: if some people here actually decided to use their brains and investigate a bit further instead of blindly following what Schattenman says based on their position in treaty web they would see that the incidents Schattenman is using to try to prove his points are nowhere near the same as the problems we've had with Corinan and Methrage. The first two are simply completed tech deals where the last 50 tech packages coincided with when Smacky went rogue. The third [b]spectacular[/b] example is a brand new nation, less than 40 days old in our recruitment AA making a simple raiding mistake.

Of course Schattenman thinks this is comparable to the former second in command at NSO (who stills holds an advisory position in government) sending 4.5m of secret aid to a known nuclear rogue at war with GOONS, and then gloats about it until a spy report is finally generated; especially after an explicit announcement was made by us about aiding him.
[/quote]

It is very comparable, yes. Just because you don't want it to be doesn't make it so.

[M6 Redneck]

Apparently I am a rogue, as such I would like some aid from NSO thank you please.

M6

[Bob Janova]

This is a classic example of taking two situations with superficial similarities and pushing those really, really hard in the hope that no-one will notice the differences, to try to score political points. To the casual reader it may appear that you have a good case and GOONS and such. However there are two major differences:

Firstly, the tech raid on your protectorate is [i]already a resolved situation[/i] in terms of the reps amount, as per the logs already posted in this thread. Yes, GOONS should make sure that those reps are delivered. The amount there seems reasonable to me, $1m is already rather punitive for the damage a few GAs at that size would have done.

And secondly, regarding the aid payments: tech is a lot less damaging than aid, in most cases. (That's not true in alliance war with large nations, but rogues usually hit bill lock and low infra pretty fast.) An aid drop of $3m will allow a rogue to rebuild to 1000 infra or buy a few more nukes, allowing them to keep nuking for an extra few days, costing a significant amount of damage. 50 tech adds 0.5% to the nation's damage output, or under one point of infra and land per nuke (1½ points if the nation has a WRC). In addition, unless I missed it, GOONS hadn't just been given a strong lesson in not aiding rogues before those incidents (and the aid wasn't sent by a senior government advisor to make a political point) and therefore extremely punitive reps wouldn't be justified. I'd say that 3x aid sent would be suitable for aiding tech so GOONS 'owes' you 300 tech or 9 million, not 90. (Plus one for the agreed reps for the raid.)

[kevin32891]

[quote name='M6 Redneck' timestamp='1283858120' post='2445153']
Apparently I am a rogue, as such I would like some aid from NSO thank you please.

M6
[/quote]

You're not so bright are you? Why don't you go insult some more Hydra members or something.

[Beefspari]

Oh, this thread is cute. Especially the nodding and "hear hear!" for the first five pages. I enjoy the mindless anti-GOONS propaganda. Listen closely because this is the only thing I'm going to say in this thread. Because there's no point in discussing this matter deeper than this.

Apparently people think it's okay to bring up situations that were already discussed, negotiated, and resolved. The incidents brought up were all already handled and discussed, or dismissed, but now it seems perfectly fine to re-visit them and use them as a basis for complaint. And then elevate the numbers for no reason.

The aid sent to Smacky was for a tech deal, and the goons invested had debts to pay. Even if one does consider "finishing a tech deal" to be "aiding someone at war," we already discussed this. We offered compensation but the issue was dropped. So even though we had the intention of paying it off, it was dismissed by CoJ. CoJ tried to use the aid of Smacky incident as leverage when we were fighting USSR. It was used as a threat and as a bartering tool, saying "if you let USSR go we'll let this go." Because we offered to compensate them instead, they dropped it, because the tactic wasn't working. In fact it wasn't brought up UNTIL the USSR incident, and was dropped very fast. Now it's being brought up again. CoJ doesn't actually care about the 50t, they just want to use it as a tool to garner hate against GOONS. A very poorly utilized tool.

People also think it's fair to compare how GOONS handles people blatantly aiding nuclear rogues (with secret aid, then lying, and fleeing in NS to avoid spying, all after a thread went up specifically stating not to aid him) to someone sending 50t for an obvious tech deal. Well that's quite a stretch, but why not consider how GOONS handles people sending 50t for an obvious tech deal instead? Wouldn't that make more sense?

[quote]<Beefspari[GOONS]> Just a minor request, nothing serious.
<WARLORD44[UPN-MoD]> ok
<Beefspari[GOONS]> http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=313301&Extended=1
<Beefspari[GOONS]> We're obviously at war with those guys, but it looks like a tech deal so we aren't going to consider it anything.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Just ask that no more aid goes out to those guys.
<WARLORD44[UPN-MoD]> Not a problem
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Thanks, appreciate it.
<WARLORD44[UPN-MoD]> not a problem ill post this log up on our fourms so everyone will know
<Beefspari[GOONS]> Awesome, that's all I wanted. Thanks.
<WARLORD44[UPN-MoD]> Not a problem[/quote]

Yes, obviously GOONS are evil and hypocrites. No wait it's the opposite. In fact while people were trying to push that 50t for a tech deal onto someone is aiding a nation at war, it was [b]already resolved[/b], but is being brought up again to try and smear us baselessly.

Not only that, but [b]not one bit of this matters[/b]. All the situations were already agreed upon and resolved. In the USSR raid incident, CoJ was the one that suggested the 1m in aid. We agreed to it and sent it. The offer is still on the table should the nation become active again. There were no problems with this negotiation or agreement. Now they seem to want 90m instead, for no reason. You're again comparing this to the incident with Corinan. The [b]astronomically, hugely important[/b] difference is that Corinan agreed to 90m. CoJ/GOONS agreed to 1m.

If you're arguing that both parties can agree to 1m and then one can decide "no wait, I want a different amount now," then fine. But say what you're arguing, don't disguise it behind a bunch of misleading information and issues that have already been negotiated. If you're think you're entitled to more than 1m, feel free to negotiate it that way. Don't ask for 1m if you want 90m. You won't get more than 1m since that was our resolution in the first place, but whatever, keep demanding it. If you want it that bad, come and get it.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1283841443' post='2445036']
I think CoJ would be justified in hitting GOONS if they don't pay the reps, as violence is all GOONS understand and you'll get nowhere trying to talk sense with them on the forum.
[/quote]
Oh please, please, please don't make me have to agree with Methrage. I don't think my heart can take it.

[VIdiot the Great]

Schatt, how many times do I have to tell you, if you don't send a proper invoice with the appropriate letterhead, you're not going to get a response.

However, good luck collecting. Don't accept endorsed third party checks. Just a heads up.

[GearHead]

Loving this Schatt.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283859443' post='2445168']
This is a classic example of taking two situations with superficial similarities and pushing those really, really hard in the hope that no-one will notice the differences, to try to score political points. To the casual reader it may appear that you have a good case and GOONS and such. However there are two major differences:

Firstly, the tech raid on your protectorate is [i]already a resolved situation[/i] in terms of the reps amount, as per the logs already posted in this thread. Yes, GOONS should make sure that those reps are delivered. The amount there seems reasonable to me, $1m is already rather punitive for the damage a few GAs at that size would have done.

And secondly, regarding the aid payments: tech is a lot less damaging than aid, in most cases. (That's not true in alliance war with large nations, but rogues usually hit bill lock and low infra pretty fast.) An aid drop of $3m will allow a rogue to rebuild to 1000 infra or buy a few more nukes, allowing them to keep nuking for an extra few days, costing a significant amount of damage. 50 tech adds 0.5% to the nation's damage output, or under one point of infra and land per nuke (1½ points if the nation has a WRC). In addition, unless I missed it, GOONS hadn't just been given a strong lesson in not aiding rogues before those incidents (and the aid wasn't sent by a senior government advisor to make a political point) and therefore extremely punitive reps wouldn't be justified. I'd say that 3x aid sent would be suitable for aiding tech so GOONS 'owes' you 300 tech or 9 million, not 90. (Plus one for the agreed reps for the raid.)
[/quote]

Yesterday: [20:54] <Biff[CoJ]> I can't wait for bobby j's "this is not the same thing"

[img] http://www.tweak3d.net/forums/imagehosting/12254a885fadccc3b.gif[/img]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283865980' post='2445228']

Not only that, but [b]not one bit of this matters[/b]. All the situations were already agreed upon and resolved. In the USSR raid incident, CoJ was the one that suggested the 1m in aid. We agreed to it and sent it. The offer is still on the table should the nation become active again.
[/quote]
What do you think the odds are that this nation will become active again with this raid record against it:
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-30 10:29:25 Amerikkka Stupid Newbie (GOONS Academy)
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-18 07:43:28 The Farm iFOK
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-01 04:49:36 Tekuzania Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-07-19 02:51:01 kierrieville Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan None 2010-07-18 01:06:50 Afgoonistan Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan None 2010-07-17 22:50:37 Paradigm Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadis

Edited September 7, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283872165' post='2445328']
What do you think the odds are that this nation will become active again with this raid record against it:
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-30 10:29:25 Amerikkka Stupid Newbie (GOONS Academy)
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-18 07:43:28 The Farm iFOK
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-08-01 04:49:36 Tekuzania Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan U.S.S.R. 2010-07-19 02:51:01 kierrieville Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan None 2010-07-18 01:06:50 Afgoonistan Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism
Miristan None 2010-07-17 22:50:37 Paradigm Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadis
[/quote]
Wow, good job quoting practically one sentence out of her huge post to refute, completely meaningless to the entire argument. You really deconstructed her entire argument there Schatt! Between this, your dismissal of Bob Janova's post and your ridiculous red BIG LETTERS post you're really embarrassing yourself here.

Pull yourself together man.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Biazt

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283872611' post='2445341']
Wow, good job quoting practically one sentence out of her huge post to refute, completely meaningless to the entire argument. You really deconstructed her entire argument there Schatt! Between this, your dismissal of Bob Janova's post and your ridiculous red BIG LETTERS post you're really embarrassing yourself here.

Pull yourself together man.
[/quote]

The rest of her post is from the perspective that the title and claims are literal and not rhetorical devices. I mean I [i]could[/i] have said "you didn't get it" but that would've just made me look like a superior ass.

[agafaba]

History repeats itself, dont forget that GOONS.
Keep telling people to [b]do something about it[/b] and they will.

Really though, now that most people dont have to pretend to be morally just to call themselves karma im not shocked things are going back to the way they used to. 90m reps fro 3m sent, having an opinion being a "high end government position", people saying do something about it hoping they can destroy someone for not agreeing with their policies.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283872611' post='2445341']
Wow, good job quoting practically one sentence out of her huge post to refute, completely meaningless to the entire argument. You really deconstructed her entire argument there Schatt! Between this, your dismissal of Bob Janova's post and your ridiculous red BIG LETTERS post you're really embarrassing yourself here.

Pull yourself together man.
[/quote]
Now now Biazt, you know how Schatt is, he will ignore any argument that he can't answer. It is a testament to Beefspari's ability that he only quoted as little as he did.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Sardonic

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283872943' post='2445347']
The rest of her post is from the perspective that the title and claims are literal and not rhetorical devices. I mean I [i]could[/i] have said "you didn't get it" but that would've just made me look like a superior ass.
[/quote]
That's another nice deflection. Maybe you could post it in huge red letters next time?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Biazt

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283873119' post='2445354']
Now now Biazt, you know how Schatt is, he will ignore any argument that he can't answer. It is a testament to Beefspari's ability that he only quoted as little as he did.
[/quote]
When the position is "GOONS wants astronomical reps to punish people for things GOONS does every week" and the response is "you could have asked for more money" there is no argument to respond to.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283873436' post='2445358']
When the position is "GOONS wants astronomical reps to punish people for things GOONS does every week" and the response is "you could have asked for more money" there is no argument to respond to.
[/quote]
I was referring to deflecting nearly every post contrary to yours in this thread and not responding to their arguments. Beefspari's is merely one point made of many.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Biazt

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283873436' post='2445358']
When the position is "GOONS wants astronomical reps to punish people for things GOONS does every week" and the response is "you could have asked for more money" there is no argument to respond to.
[/quote]
Oh right, I forgot about the other thing Schatt always does, mischaracterize the opposing side's arguments.

[Mofeta]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283873436' post='2445358']
When the position is "GOONS wants astronomical reps to punish people for things GOONS does every week"
[/quote]

The problem is that your position has no merit to begin with. The two things you have claimed we do "every week" is screw up tech raids and finish tech deals when the buyer has gone rogue. Beefspari has already pointed out that when the latter case happened to us we didn't ask for any reparations at all. Likewise, when people mistakenly raid us we treat the raiders the same way we expect to be treated. Just last month a wayward UPN member raided a goon. UPN sent 3 mil in reparation; the offer was not accepted after one week and subsequently cancelled. But since it was offered in good faith, we dropped the issue. Where's the hypocrisy there?

The fact of the matter is that you keep making apples and oranges comparisons because that's all you have. We know better than to send secret aid to a known nuclear rogue despite multiple prior warnings not to do so, so I guess we'll never know what would happen if the tables were turned.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Mofeta

[JT Jag]

GOONS will consider paying "astronomical reps" if one of our senior members secretly aids a nuclear rogue and then repeatedly lies about it.

That's the only comparable situation, an accidental raid by a newbie or finishing a tech deal is entirely different.

Edited September 7, 2010 by JT Jag

[RePePe]

I suppose it's too much to ask for GOONS to simply not raid protected targets. There are dozens of tech-raiding alliances out there that never seem to have these tech raiding issues.

Your inability to participate in tech raiding without so many screw-ups is a testament to the sub-par quality of your alliance, unless of course you have a better explanation for it.

Do better, please. (Although I expect a reply without any real substance, describing how invalid my point is. It seems customary of most GOONS on this OWF.)

[Heinlander]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1283877239' post='2445431']
(Although I expect a reply without any real substance, describing how invalid my point is. It seems customary of most GOONS on this OWF.)
[/quote]Good, that saves us a lot of time.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1283877239' post='2445431']
I suppose it's too much to ask for GOONS to simply not raid protected targets. There are dozens of tech-raiding alliances out there that never seem to have these tech raiding issues.

Your inability to participate in tech raiding without so many screw-ups is a testament to the sub-par quality of your alliance, unless of course you have a better explanation for it.

Do better, please. (Although I expect a reply without any real substance, describing how invalid my point is. It seems customary of most GOONS on this OWF.)
[/quote]
Pray the political currents of war never find you in our sights, for we shall not forget slights such as this one.

As to the tech raiding, it comes down to numbers, we raid more than anyone and we have an enormous amount of people in the prime raiding NS range. Incidents have been getting rarer though, as our safeguards have evolved and grown to meet the needs.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283874290' post='2445379']
Oh right, I forgot about the other thing Schatt always does, mischaracterize the opposing side's arguments.
[/quote]
If you want to play, I'm game.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283859443' post='2445168']
This is a classic example of taking two situations with superficial similarities and pushing those really, really hard in the hope that no-one will notice the differences, to try to score political points. To the casual reader it may appear that you have a good case and GOONS and such. However there are two major differences:

Firstly, the tech raid on your protectorate is [i]already a resolved situation[/i] in terms of the reps amount, as per the logs already posted in this thread. Yes, GOONS should make sure that those reps are delivered. The amount there seems reasonable to me, $1m is already rather punitive for the damage a few GAs at that size would have done.[/quote] Excellent, I agree.

So why is $90 million reasonable with regards to Doppelganger only doing it [i]once[/i]? I mean...GOONs did several of those GA's, apparently. You know, the multiple raids on the [i]same protected nation[/i] and all that.
[quote]
And secondly, regarding the aid payments: tech is a lot less damaging than aid, in most cases. (That's not true in alliance war with large nations, but rogues usually hit bill lock and low infra pretty fast.) An aid drop of $3m will allow a rogue to rebuild to 1000 infra or buy a few more nukes, allowing them to keep nuking for an extra few days, costing a significant amount of damage. 50 tech adds 0.5% to the nation's damage output, or under one point of infra and land per nuke (1½ points if the nation has a WRC). I[b]n addition, unless I missed it, GOONS hadn't just been given a strong lesson in not aiding rogues before those incidents[/b] (and the aid wasn't sent by a senior government advisor to make a political point) and [b]therefore extremely punitive reps wouldn't be justified.[/b] I'd say that 3x aid sent would be suitable for aiding tech so GOONS 'owes' you 300 tech or 9 million, not 90. (Plus one for the agreed reps for the raid.)
[/quote]
Ah, I see.

So unless GOONS gets rolled, they have no reason to pay absurdly large reps. Thank you for clearing that up.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283865980' post='2445228']
Oh, this thread is cute. Especially the nodding and "hear hear!" for the first five pages. I enjoy the mindless anti-GOONS propaganda. Listen closely because this is the only thing I'm going to say in this thread. Because there's no point in discussing this matter deeper than this.

Apparently people think it's okay to bring up situations that were already discussed, negotiated, and resolved. The incidents brought up were all already handled and discussed, or dismissed, but now it seems perfectly fine to re-visit them and use them as a basis for complaint. And then elevate the numbers for no reason.[/quote] Well, the agreed upon reparations still have yet to be actually paid...So, almost by definition, the matter is not resolved,

[quote]The aid sent to Smacky was for a tech deal, and the goons invested had debts to pay. Even if one does consider "finishing a tech deal" to be "aiding someone at war," we already discussed this. We offered compensation but the issue was dropped. So even though we had the intention of paying it off, it was dismissed by CoJ. CoJ tried to use the aid of Smacky incident as leverage when we were fighting USSR. It was used as a threat and as a bartering tool, saying "if you let USSR go we'll let this go." Because we offered to compensate them instead, they dropped it, because the tactic wasn't working. In fact it wasn't brought up UNTIL the USSR incident, and was dropped very fast. Now it's being brought up again. CoJ doesn't actually care about the 50t, they just want to use it as a tool to garner hate against GOONS. A very poorly utilized tool.[/quote]That's some nice speculation there.

Evidence?

[quote]People also think it's fair to compare how GOONS handles people blatantly aiding nuclear rogues (with secret aid, then lying, and fleeing in NS to avoid spying, all after a thread went up specifically stating not to aid him) to someone sending 50t for an obvious tech deal. Well that's quite a stretch, but why not consider how GOONS handles people sending 50t for an obvious tech deal instead? Wouldn't that make more sense?
[/quote]Well, you all just keep tech raiding protected nations despite being told not to do, and even saying you won't.

I would say thats a pretty fair comparison to a one-off thumb nosing, compared to a consistent disregard for your own word and reputed standards of conduct.


[quote]Yes, obviously GOONS are evil and hypocrites. No wait it's the opposite. In fact while people were trying to push that 50t for a tech deal onto someone is aiding a nation at war, it was [b]already resolved[/b], but is being brought up again to try and smear us baselessly.[/quote]Not without basis, clearly. And you really have yet to establish how you're not hypocrites.

You're just saying "this is another way to look at it, therefore, we're not hypocrites". Thats some pretty shoddy reasoning, even if you did explain how that interpretation would mean you're not hypocrites.

After all, it still doesn't address the "repeated behavior" which you all cited as the primary reason for the massive reps requested in the first place. That's the main issue, which you're failing to deflect from.

[quote]Not only that, but [b]not one bit of this matters[/b]. All the situations were already agreed upon and resolved. In the USSR raid incident, CoJ was the one that suggested the 1m in aid. We agreed to it and sent it. The offer is still on the table should the nation become active again. There were no problems with this negotiation or agreement. Now they seem to want 90m instead, for no reason. You're again comparing this to the incident with Corinan. The [b]astronomically, hugely important[/b] difference is that Corinan agreed to 90m. CoJ/GOONS agreed to 1m.[/quote] After you suggested something along those lines, and Dopp was just being arrogant agreeing to such huge reps in the first place. I guess that just goes to show you that CoJ is more reasonable when it comes to this kind of thing.

Who knew?

[quote]If you're arguing that both parties can agree to 1m and then one can decide "no wait, I want a different amount now," then fine. But say what you're arguing, don't disguise it behind a bunch of misleading information and issues that have already been negotiated. If you're think you're entitled to more than 1m, feel free to negotiate it that way. Don't ask for 1m if you want 90m. You won't get more than 1m since that was our resolution in the first place, but whatever, keep demanding it. If you want it that bad, come and get it.


Oh please, please, please don't make me have to agree with Methrage. I don't think my heart can take it.
[/quote]
Ill gladly accept your concession that the hypocrisy involved is irrelevant, since you got the folks to agree in the first place.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chron

[TehChron]

Double post due to limitations on quote tags, I apologize.

[quote name='Mofeta' timestamp='1283874758' post='2445394']
The problem is that your position has no merit to begin with. The two things you have claimed we do "every week" is screw up tech raids and finish tech deals when the buyer has gone rogue. Beefspari has already pointed out that when the latter case happened to us we didn't ask for any reparations at all. Likewise, when people mistakenly raid us we treat the raiders the same way we expect to be treated. Just last month a wayward UPN member raided a goon. UPN sent 3 mil in reparation; the offer was not accepted after one week and subsequently cancelled. But since it was offered in good faith, we dropped the issue. Where's the hypocrisy there?[/quote]I don't know, why demand $90 million from Doppelganger in that case?

I mean, it's pretty obvious that GOONs is an alliance, and raiding nations in an alliance is something that shouldn't be done. The intended malice and relative damage remains the same, so what makes Doppelganger's actions just so terrible and horrifying that they must be made to never ever happen again?
[quote]
The fact of the matter is that you keep making apples and oranges comparisons because that's all you have. We know better than to send secret aid to a known nuclear rogue despite multiple prior warnings not to do so, so I guess we'll never know what would happen if the tables were turned.
[/quote]

Well, you probably [i]would[/i] send secret aid, you probably would just assume you wouldn't get caught, or at the very least, that you wouldn't have to pay $90 million in reps.

Please don't try and play the boy scout card. It's ridiculous.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283875255' post='2445399']
GOONS will consider paying "astronomical reps" if one of our senior members secretly aids a nuclear rogue and then repeatedly lies about it.

That's the only comparable situation, an accidental raid by a newbie or finishing a tech deal is entirely different.
[/quote]
Then why did it matter if it was his first time, or a "repeated offense"? Honestly, you'd think you could at least recall the various justifications you used. It's not like you're paying $90 million in order to avoid falling into some kind of imaginary habit.

[Jens of the desert]

90mil is nothing. Someone who should have known better made an idiotic mistake, and NSO should be paying every penny, without the right to complain.

They aided a rogue, and should recieve the punishment. There is no argument.