GOONS owes me $90,000,000

[Chifforobe]

So, if you don't get the reps you believe you deserve, are you willing to go to war? Basically I'm wondering if you're planning to [b]do something about it[/b], talk is cheap.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283829210' post='2444780']
Another awful attempt at elawyering by Schattenman, complete with even more terrible attempts at humor using images. There are so many logical holes in your argument it's ridiculous. Every single comparison you try to make is faulty because none of the incidents are remotely the same unless you paint them with incredibly broad strokes.

I'd like to say I'm surprised by how the great Schattenman has stooped to such levels of intellectual dishonesty, but alas, I'm not.
[/quote]

You're right, he spent far too much of his youth in GOONS and learned it from your alliance. Pity.

[Biazt]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1283833524' post='2444883']
You're right, he spent far too much of his youth in GOONS and learned it from your alliance. Pity.
[/quote]
Counterpoint: you're in Valhalla.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Biazt

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283833563' post='2444885']
Counterpoint: You're in Valhalla.
[/quote]

Silly me, joining a better alliance than you. Please, don't hate.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283833563' post='2444885']
Counterpoint: you're in Valhalla.
[/quote]

Considering that all but one of your posts in this thread has lacked any morsel of substance, I applaud your efforts, but please: Do try harder.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283832117' post='2444846']
Instead of giving me an Rebel Virginia diatribe about how spectacular you are perhaps you should focus on constructing a coherent argument about the subject at hand?
[/quote]
Oh ok.

To recap: Biazt "When we aid people at war--people who are nuke rogues and happen to be ex-GOONS attacking someone we don't like--it's no big deal. When we do it twice in a row, it's 2x not-a-big-deal. Some aid is different than other aid. Members titles factor into how serious it is. You only agree with Schattenmann because his 3 ODOAPS link him to the entire world."

When it comes to reps being calculated based on repeat offenses, I don't see a big difference. When we aided Methrage, GOONS wanted 20 mil from us. When GOONS aided a nuke rogue, your founder Lamuella thought 3 mil covered it.

Your problem is that you always want the world to bend over backwards and take whatever half-assed turd you pop out as the golden egg you present it as, but the second you think you've got something to hang over someone you try to break the bank.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Leftbehind]

[quote name='Chifforobe' timestamp='1283833399' post='2444880']
So, if you don't get the reps you believe you deserve, are you willing to go to war? Basically I'm wondering if you're planning to [b]do something about it[/b], talk is cheap.
[/quote]

So I guess you missed the point of the thread then.

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283824114' post='2444664']
Not our problem, we tried to pay, he's probably gone inactive.
[/quote]
You canceled the offer before the slot even was even expired and never made an effort to investigate whether he was going inactive, idling out or if something had happened making him unable to accept it. Furthermore there's the fact that the nation still exists unpaid. The lack of contact to see payment through makes cop out the phrase.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283831252' post='2444831']
Of course Schattenman thinks this is comparable to the [b]former second in command at NSO (who stills holds an advisory position in government)[/b] sending 4.5m of secret aid to a known nuclear rogue at war with GOONS, and then gloats about it until a spy report is finally generated; especially after an explicit announcement was made by us about aiding him.
[/quote]
hmm, why does that debate of whether advisors are government sound familiar. Seriously, wasn't there a previous incident about that?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1283834759' post='2444909']
You canceled the offer before the slot even was even expired and never made an effort to investigate whether he was going inactive, idling out or if something had happened making him unable to accept it. Furthermore there's the fact that the nation still exists unpaid. The lack of contact to see payment through makes cop out the phrase.
[/quote]
If he wants the money he can message me about it and I'll pay him. Beyond that though, as we're at war, I want to keep as many slots ready as possible.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Sardonic

[Heinlander]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283834476' post='2444903']
When it comes to reps being calculated based on repeat offenses, I don't see a big difference. When we aided Methrage, GOONS wanted 20 mil from us. When GOONS aided a nuke rogue, your founder Lamuella thought 3 mil covered it.

Your problem is that you always want the world to bend over backwards and take whatever half-assed turd you pop out as the golden egg you present it as, but the second you think you've got something to hang over someone you try to break the bank.
[/quote]

The difference is you agreed to it. If you don't like the amount you agreed to, pick a different amount instead of complaining at a later date or build a time machine and go back and fix your horrible mistake.

We gave NSO a golden egg. 90mil or be rolled into dust. Did you have the power to enforce a deal like that? Do you now? If so then feel free to do something about it. I'm right in your NS range; lower, infact. Prove that you're right; use your aggressive feelings. Otherwise take the advice of my comrade:
[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1283832365' post='2444853']
To the OP, I say:

[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/34qp9a0.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283824478' post='2444672']
This is literally how the negotiations went for that incident, the amount was his idea anyway:

<Beefspari[GOONS]> I'll suspend him from raiding and get him to peace.
<Schattenmann> Some amount of restitution would also be appropriate.
<Beefspari[GOONS]> He looks pretty small, how much do you want?
<Schattenmann> Not more than 1m
<Schattenmann> 500k-1m
<Beefspari[GOONS]> That seems fine.
[/quote]

Thank you for providing these. Since that was the agreed-upon fee then both sides seem to have reached a previous accord and the issue seems to have been resolved. That being said, I'm now failing to understand why this is a rehashed issue and a new amount is being thrown around (unless the purpose is publicity, in which case the use of this incident as an example is disingenuous in the extreme).

[Schattenmann]

GOONS Aids a Rogue:
Alliance X: Ehm, pardon me, but it seems you've aided a nation that's in the middle of nuking people.
GOONS: [img]http://i55.tinypic.com/34qp9a0.jpg[/img]



A Nation Attacking GOONS Receives Aid:
GOONS: Hey assmaggot, you raided the chumscrubber that we're at war with!
Alliance X: Oh, that is embarras--
GOONS: [color="#FF0000"][size="7"]SHUT UP ASSWIPE! I WANT $90,000,000 NOW! NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! HURRY UP $%&@STICK!!!!![/size][/color]

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1283837684' post='2444964']
Thank you for providing these. Since that was the agreed-upon fee then both sides seem to have reached a previous accord and the issue seems to have been resolved. That being said, I'm now failing to understand why this is a rehashed issue and a new amount is being thrown around (unless the purpose is publicity, in which case the use of this incident as an example is disingenuous in the extreme).
[/quote]
Jesus Christ! The point is not the amount of money (that was never delivered). Holy God! Somebody write a Cliff's Notes.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283837915' post='2444971']
Jesus Christ! The point is not the amount of money (that was never delivered). Holy God! Somebody write a Cliff's Notes.
[/quote]

I realize the point isn't the money - I just didn't come right out and say that since I thought it would be a little impolite (tantamount to calling someone an attention-seeker, which is never kind). Still, the use of this incident and prior claims on your part to have not heard anything about the negotiations regarding it seem a little... incorrect. Maybe trying to hold up this instance was a bad move since it's clearly detracting from the point you're seeking to make about the silliness of the reparations amounts in the GOONS v. NSO/Doppleganger incident.

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283837812' post='2444969']
GOONS Aids a Rogue:
Alliance X: Ehm, pardon me, but it seems you've aided a nation that's in the middle of nuking people.
GOONS: [img]http://i55.tinypic.com/34qp9a0.jpg[/img]



A Nation Attacking GOONS Receives Aid:
GOONS: Hey assmaggot, you raided the chumscrubber that we're at war with!
Alliance X: Oh, that is embarras--
GOONS: [color="#FF0000"][size="7"]SHUT UP ASSWIPE! I WANT $90,000,000 NOW! NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! HURRY UP $%&@STICK!!!!![/size][/color]
[/quote]

Hmm, this doesn't seem to be an entirely accurate representation of previous events. If you'd care to edit those to something a little more realistic I'd appreciate it, thanks in advance.

[Heinlander]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283837812' post='2444969']
GOONS Aids a Rogue:
Alliance X: Ehm, pardon me, but it seems you've aided a nation that's in the middle of nuking people.
GOONS: [img]http://i55.tinypic.com/34qp9a0.jpg[/img]

A Nation Attacking GOONS Receives Aid:
GOONS: Hey assmaggot, you raided the chumscrubber that we're at war with!
Alliance X: Oh, that is embarras--
GOONS: [color="#FF0000"][size="7"]SHUT UP ASSWIPE! I WANT $90,000,000 NOW! NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! HURRY UP $%&@STICK!!!!![/size][/color]
[/quote]Nice strawman. Except that NSO aided Methrage in secret after we said there would be consequences, covered it up, and then once it all came out in the open we dealt with it civility with the offending party directly.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1283838067' post='2444972']
I realize the point isn't the money - I just didn't come right out and say that since I thought it would be a little impolite (tantamount to calling someone an attention-seeker, which is never kind). Still, the use of this incident and prior claims on your part to have not heard anything about the negotiations regarding it seem a little... incorrect. Maybe trying to hold up this instance was a bad move since it's clearly detracting from the point you're seeking to make about the silliness of the reparations amounts in the GOONS v. NSO/Doppleganger incident.
[/quote]
So it's been about a week since GOONS raided our protectorate and they haven't yet made good on it; Sardonic has since noted he canceled the aid. But, it's your position that we shouldn't use it as an exemplar because undelivered/canceled aid is "resolved." So, in a week NSO is off the hook because they've [i]agreed[/i] to pay? No.

My mistake is failing to list all 976 instances of GOONS raiding protected alliances the same way they aid rogues over and over (less than a month ago they raided a MA protectorate), the way they claim NSO does. Back to the glaringly obvious point that GOONS has raided protected targets on multiple occasions and given their logic that NSO must be punished with full retard reps for doing the same bad thing over again, then I think it's only fair that they hold themselves to their own standard.

[Chifforobe]

[quote name='Left_Behind' timestamp='1283834728' post='2444907']
So I guess you missed the point of the thread then.
[/quote]

Man I was just asking a question, it's my personal belief that anything you feel is important is worth fighting for, and these reps were obviously worth enough to Mister Shatt to post this thread, and I was merely curious as to the rigidity of his resolve.

The question stands, how strongly do you feel about this? If you're not willing to [b]do something about it[/b], it brings into question the true reason behind a thread like this.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Heinlander' timestamp='1283838418' post='2444986']
Nice strawman. Except that NSO aided Methrage in secret after we said there would be consequences, covered it up, and then once it all came out in the open we dealt with it civility with the offending party directly.
[/quote]
That's interesting, I'm certain that it came out in the open after you used a spy attack, which is an aggressive act of war.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283837812' post='2444969']
GOONS Aids a Rogue:
Alliance X: Ehm, pardon me, but it seems you've aided a nation that's in the middle of nuking people.
GOONS: [img]http://i55.tinypic.com/34qp9a0.jpg[/img]



A Nation Attacking GOONS Receives Aid:
GOONS: Hey assmaggot, you raided the chumscrubber that we're at war with!
Alliance X: Oh, that is embarras--
GOONS: [color="#FF0000"][size="7"]SHUT UP ASSWIPE! I WANT $90,000,000 NOW! NOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! HURRY UP $%&@STICK!!!!![/size][/color]
[/quote]Please, Schattenmann. This is an important philosophical discussion, be mature.

[Heinlander]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283838550' post='2444992']
That's interesting, I'm certain that it came out in the open after you used a spy attack, which is an aggressive act of war.
[/quote]Yup, which NSO gave us permission to do.

Face it Schatten. We're dancing circles around you.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283838428' post='2444987']
So it's been about a week since GOONS raided our protectorate and they haven't yet made good on it; Sardonic has since noted he canceled the aid. But, it's your position that we shouldn't use it as an exemplar because undelivered/canceled aid is "resolved." So, in a week NSO is off the hook because they've [i]agreed[/i] to pay? No.[/quote]

The point you're making about GOONS conduct is valid, but the example of their raid on your protectorate that you associated with attempting this effort was perhaps not the best chosen? It looks like you guys had an agreement and it hasn't gone through yet, that's it. Should GOONS stand by not coming through on their end, sure, the incident is valid. Right now it's murky and deflecting from the point you were trying to make.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1283838428' post='2444987']
My mistake is failing to list all 976 instances of GOONS raiding protected alliances the same way they aid rogues over and over (less than a month ago they raided a MA protectorate), the way they claim NSO does. Back to the glaringly obvious point that GOONS has raided protected targets on multiple occasions and given their logic that NSO must be punished with full retard reps for doing the same bad thing over again, then I think it's only fair that they hold themselves to their own standard.
[/quote]

Getting into the nitty-gritty of citing every simple instance would probably 1) be a waste of time and 2) not really go anywhere useful. Suffice to say I think the vast majority of people understand what you're trying to say here and getting mired in the details isn't going to make anyone look good since it'll devolve into the usual 'verse political discourse (See: NO U).

[Cobalt]

apples and oranges.

On one side you have a random new ruler doing something dumb which he shouldn't have done, but probably did not know he was breaking rules at the time - his government even tried to fix the issue. On the other side, you have a high ranking member who knowingly acted so as to defy GOONS, then lied about it and took action to cover up his transgressions before being found out.

Are there similarities? Yes. Are they the same thing? No.

Now, in the planet bob tradition of using large, sweeping historical examples, I give you the following: When Franz Ferdinand was murdered a war eventually started - should we now believe that in all cases where a man's life is taken international war is to follow? No, that wouldn't make sense at all. The death of the archduke and say, the death of a store owner during an armed robbery, while both tragic to compare the two would be... apples and oranges.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Tungsten' timestamp='1283839817' post='2445016']
When Franz Ferdinand was murdered
[/quote]
[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=184514]He seems ok to me.[/url]

[Sephiroth]

I think CoJ would be justified in hitting GOONS if they don't pay the reps, as violence is all GOONS understand and you'll get nowhere trying to talk sense with them on the forum.