GOONS owes me $90,000,000

[TehChron]

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1283879345' post='2445464']
90mil is nothing. Someone who should have known better made an idiotic mistake, and NSO should be paying every penny, without the right to complain.

They aided a rogue, and should recieve the punishment. There is no argument.
[/quote]
They raided a protected nation. Multiple times. People who should have known better made an idiotic mistake, and should pay every penny, etc etc.

They should receive the punishment. There is no argument.

Really? Absolute terms unsubstantiated by any real support for those claims? I would say it's an absurd argument, but you even outright pointed out what you're saying isnt an argument in the first place.

Broad generalizations and deflections are not a rebuttal, they're just transparent attempts at making denials-that-aren't-denials.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283820835' post='2444593']
Crying and making a mega wall of words will stop GOONS for sure this time

Schatt, do something real about it. Go on the battlefield with your anger or shut up.
[/quote]
Schatt fights wars with his words alone, and he's really damn good at it. His pen [i]is[/i] his sword.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Hyperion321

[thedon125]

Just because I feel like submitting my $0.02

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283859443' post='2445168']
Firstly, the tech raid on your protectorate is [i]already a resolved situation[/i] in terms of the reps amount, as per the logs already posted in this thread. Yes, GOONS should make sure that those reps are delivered. The amount there seems reasonable to me, $1m is already rather punitive for the damage a few GAs at that size would have done.
[/quote]

I'm going to have to agree with Bob Janova, just because you sent $1mil, and the nation did not accept it, does not count as reps being paid. There's already political precedent for this, and I'm glad I don't see any MK, ODN, FoB, or other CnG alliance members stating that your reps are paid, just because the nation didn't accept. If the aided nation doesn't accept due to inactivity, it only seems logical to send the $1mil to another one of the alliance's nations, if for no other reason than to compensate your driving away of one of their members. (a compensation $1mil falls far short of meeting, but that was the negotiated value, and that's realistically all GOONS should be held to)

Other than that, I'm siding with GOONS here. 50 tech is hardly anywhere as damaging as $3mil; with $3mil, I can buy an entire air force starting from nothing, and still have enough left for a nuke or two. 50 tech might cause an extra 10 infra and tech damage throughout an entire round of fighting. If you don't like GOONS following through with their tech deals, then state it ahead of time; I'm sure whatever nations who owed tech would be happy to keep the extra money, but unless they know its an act of war, they're just fulfilling their duty to another nation. Perhaps it would make sense to compromise here, and create some form of international policy that pauses all tech deals coming from outside one's alliance while at war, and then resume as if nothing happened once peace is declared. (hah, like that'll happen)

Edited September 7, 2010 by thedon125

[TehChron]

[quote name='thedon125' timestamp='1283880943' post='2445493']


Other than that, I'm siding with GOONS here. 50 tech is hardly anywhere as damaging as $3mil; with $3mil, I can buy an entire air force starting from nothing, and still have enough left for a nuke or two. 50 tech might cause an extra 10 infra and tech damage throughout an entire round of fighting. If you don't like GOONS following through with their tech deals, then state it ahead of time; I'm sure whatever nations who owed tech would be happy to keep the extra money, but unless they know its an act of war, they're just fulfilling their duty to another nation. Perhaps it would make sense to compromise here, and create some form of international policy that pauses all tech deals coming from outside one's alliance while at war, and then resume as if nothing happened once peace is declared. (hah, like that'll happen)
[/quote]
I'm all for calling out Bob Janova, that being said, though:

The reason for the high reps, presumably, was due to an accused habit of our alliance aiding rogues, or whatever. Not the damages, or the 3 million.

The point being made here, is that if the problem is one of repetition rather than scale (in which case $90 million is an absurd amount no matter how you slice it), then GOONS is even more guilty of habitually violating alliances sovereignty by virtue of those raids than they accused NSO of being when Doppelganger aided methrage.

Sure, might makes right and all that. But it doesn't mean you aren't a hypocrite.

[thedon125]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283881787' post='2445498']
I'm all for calling out Bob Janova, that being said, though:

The reason for the high reps, presumably, was due to an accused habit of our alliance aiding rogues, or whatever. Not the damages, or the 3 million.

The point being made here, is that if the problem is one of repetition rather than scale (in which case $90 million is an absurd amount no matter how you slice it), then GOONS is even more guilty of habitually violating alliances sovereignty by virtue of those raids than they accused NSO of being when Doppelganger aided methrage.

Sure, might makes right and all that. But it doesn't mean you aren't a hypocrite.
[/quote]

A reasonable argument, if you are assuming all things are equal.

Unfortunately, things aren't equal. GOONS is an alliance made of many new members, and said new members are constantly cycling in and out. Their mid to upper tier nations might know what is going on, and if someone like Sardonic or Bizat had sent aid or raided someone, then yes, the actions of GOONS would be on par with those of NSO. To hold all of the new GOONS members responsible for their actions is somewhat unreasonable, I think every alliance leader here that isn't in charge of some 10-member micro-alliance knows fully how every now and then, you'll get a new ruler that applies for membership, then never checks back in, but instead tries to learn how to rule all on their own. Unfortunately, "learning to rule" often does involve testing their war-fighting ability in an unsanctioned manner, or practicing with the aid system. Even FEAR has the occasional new ruler that will randomly attack another alliance because they failed to read our policies, and we have FAR fewer new members than GOONS. We can't force them to read our guides before announcing their new alliance is FEAR, all we can do is clean up the aftermath of their experimentation.

On the other hand, Corinian and Heft are both veteran rulers and hold an "elevated membership level" within NSO (be it an authoritative position or not). Now, not being in NSO, I cannot speak for their policies, but I'd hope that only people who know what they are doing get government positions, and not some "stupid newbie" that was granted membership 2 days ago, and decided to go to war..

Edited September 7, 2010 by thedon125

[TehChron]

[quote name='thedon125' timestamp='1283883022' post='2445509']
A reasonable argument, if you are assuming all things are equal.

Unfortunately, things aren't equal. [/quote] I never stated that things are not equal, in fact, I even granted that since GOONS has done their raids constantly, there is room and then some to call them out as hypocrites. [quote]GOONS is an alliance made of many new members, and said new members are constantly cycling in and out. Their mid to upper tier nations might know what is going on, and if someone like Sardonic or Bizat had sent aid or raided someone, then yes, the actions of GOONS would be on par with those of NSO. [/quote] Here's the problem, what's "on par" for us? Thats pretty ill-defined.
[quote]
To hold all of the new GOONS members responsible for their actions is somewhat unreasonable, I think every alliance leader here that isn't in charge of some 10-member micro-alliance knows fully how every now and then, you'll get a new ruler that applies for membership, then never checks back in, but instead tries to learn how to rule all on their own. Unfortunately, "learning to rule" often does involve testing their war-fighting ability in an unsanctioned manner, or practicing with the aid system. Even FEAR has the occasional new ruler that will randomly attack another alliance because they failed to read our policies, and we have FAR fewer new members than GOONS.[/quote]Well then, feel free to prove that each and every single on of those incidents is the fault of some newbie who simply didn't know any better.

I believe GOONS has some kind of academy-equivalent AA or something for those that aren't deemed yet competent enough for proper membership? If that's the case, then the "newbie" argument doesn't fly for proper GOONS members.

[quote]On the other hand, Corinian and Heft are both veteran rulers and hold a government position in NSO (be it an authoritative position or not). Now, not being in NSO, I cannot speak for their policies, but I'd hope that only people who know what they are doing get government positions, and not some "stupid newbie" that was granted membership 2 days ago, and decided to go to war..
[/quote]Except you're right, the situations aren't equal:

Heft flipped the bird to Hoo because he thought he was being both ridiculous and not completely serious (his mistake), and Dopp thought he was being funny.

On the other hand, GOONS members consistently hit protected nations, and the only token of remorse GOONS offers is a canceled $1 million in aid.

Your argument will hold weight if you can prove every single GOONS member raiding a protected nation/AA is a "stupid newbie" as it fits the definition, until then it's just spinning. If you can do it, I look forward to seeing such a spectacle, and will consider your argument as a legitimate one, even if it isn't valid.

[nippy]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1283880893' post='2445491']
Schatt fights wars with his words alone, and he's really damn good at it. His pen [i]is[/i] his sword.
[/quote]

It disgusts me that people have this opinion. His inability to conduct an argument without addressing counterpoints provided by those that are arguing with him is his greatest flaw. The fact that he's able to bedazzle so many people with his wordplay just goes to show how low the bar is set to gain a following around here.

[TehChron]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283883841' post='2445524']
It disgusts me that people have this opinion. His inability to conduct an argument without addressing counterpoints provided by those that are arguing with him is his greatest flaw. The fact that he's able to bedazzle so many people with his wordplay just goes to show how low the bar is set to gain a following around here.
[/quote]
And yet the fact remains you can't even provide a proper counterpoint in the first place.

Well, you have quite the following yourselves around here, so I suppose that only further enhances the irony of the above statement.

[nippy]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283883951' post='2445529']
And yet the fact remains you can't even provide a proper counterpoint in the first place.

Well, you have quite the following yourselves around here, so I suppose that only further enhances the irony of the above statement.
[/quote]

The counterpoint was already provided by another goon. Feel free to read the thread.

[TehChron]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283884084' post='2445532']
The counterpoint was already provided by another goon. Feel free to read the thread.
[/quote]
I have already seen said counterpoint, and in turn utterly dismissed it due to it's hilariously flawed and inconsistent nature. Feel free to read the thread.

[magicninja]

If you can provide proof GOONS was doing all this just to spite you we all roll GOONS. If nopt then as people before me have said it isn't quite the same situation. Similar sure but it seems the NSO guys were actually out to help methrage in his roguing which means it was deliberate. I don't see GOONS' aiding as deliberate intent to help the guy hurt you or whoever it was.

Also, Omni doesn't get to tell our senator who or who not to sanction anymore. Our senator will sanction who the gov tells him to or we'll find another senator. Plain and simple.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283881787' post='2445498']
I'm all for calling out Bob Janova, that being said, though:

The reason for the high reps, presumably, was due to an accused habit of our alliance aiding rogues, or whatever. Not the damages, or the 3 million.

The point being made here, is that if the problem is one of repetition rather than scale (in which case $90 million is an absurd amount no matter how you slice it), then GOONS is even more guilty of habitually violating alliances sovereignty by virtue of those raids than they accused NSO of being when Doppelganger aided methrage.

Sure, might makes right and all that. But it doesn't mean you aren't a hypocrite.
[/quote]
Actually, no.

Shatt may have backpedaled to this position since the start of the thread, but this is kind of backwards from what is actually stated in the OP. Go read it again, I'll wait!




Okay then. As you have just read, Schatt's main point is that GOONS did as NSO did and aided a rogue twice. The raid is an add-on to the argument (which I don't really understand), and does not mention repetition. In fact, the $3m "pittance" reps mentioned were the reps offered for the aid, not the raid. Nearly all of the supporting text in the OP points to the aid as being its focus.

Yes, we do have members that don't know better (or are just idiots) occasionally raid protectorates, but that was not the point of the OP. If you'd like to discuss with us our raiding policies, the steps we've taken to reduce the number of bad raids that occur, and the steps we take to resolve them once we do, yeah okay, sure, ask us. I could talk about that stuff all day long. But please don't act like it's proving the OP.

Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take the hypothetical that his point was meant to focus on repetition and not the act or the scale; the problem is not [i]only[/i] one of repetition. I don't demand reps from nations who repeatedly collect taxes. Trying to imply that this is the only factor that goes into the reps decision process I find to be quite silly.


Edit:
[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283884240' post='2445535']
I have already seen said counterpoint, and in turn utterly dismissed it due to it's hilariously flawed and inconsistent nature. Feel free to read the thread.
[/quote]

I have read the OP, and in turn utterly dismissed it due to the fact that it is [i]terrible[/i]. Thread over, go home everybody.

Edited September 7, 2010 by ktarthan

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1283884338' post='2445537']
If you can provide proof GOONS was doing all this just to spite you we all roll GOONS. If nopt then as people before me have said it isn't quite the same situation. Similar sure but it seems the NSO guys were actually out to help methrage in his roguing which means it was deliberate. I don't see GOONS' aiding as deliberate intent to help the guy hurt you or whoever it was.[/quote]

GOONS members keep on hitting the same nation/AA over and over again. Sounds pretty deliberate to me. Not that having proof presented to you ever counts as evidence of facts contrary to your opinion, right? We've been down this route before, magicninja, and this really isnt the place.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1283884453' post='2445539']
Actually, no.

Shatt may have backpedaled to this position since the start of the thread, but this is kind of backwards from what is actually stated in the OP. Go read it again, I'll wait!
[/quote]

M'k. So what? That doesn't make the criticism he has since expanded upon any less legitimate.


[quote]Okay then. As you have just read, Schatt's main point is that GOONS did as NSO did and aided a rogue twice. The raid is an add-on to the argument (which I don't really understand), and does not mention repetition. In fact, the $3m "pittance" reps mentioned were the reps offered for the aid, not the raid. Nearly all of the supporting text in the OP points to the aid as being its focus.[/quote]Ok.
[quote]
Yes, we do have members that don't know better (or are just idiots) occasionally raid protectorates, but that was not the point of the OP. If you'd like to discuss with us our raiding policies, the steps we've taken to reduce the number of bad raids that occur, and the steps we take to resolve them once we do, yeah okay, sure, ask us. I could talk about that stuff all day long. But please don't act like it's proving the OP.[/quote]Well, you are free to disprove the OP, far be it from me to stop you.

[quote]Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take the hypothetical that his point was meant to focus on repetition and not the act or the scale; the problem is not [i]only[/i] one of repetition. I don't demand reps from nations who repeatedly collect taxes. Trying to imply that this is the only factor that goes into the reps decision process I find to be quite silly.
[/quote]I never did.

I simply pointed out that the factor that was cited in deciding to go for such massively inflated reps, or face war, was due to the cited "repetition". So, by that reasoning, you all should have offered the aggrieved nation compensation at a similarly highly inflated level.

But you didn't, nor did Schatt ask for it, because of the obviously ridiculous nature of that reasoning.

Edit again:

[quote]I have read the OP, and in turn utterly dismissed it due to the fact that it is terrible. Thread over, go home everybody. [/quote]It really isn't, and I also called you out on your deflection, which I found pretty funny.

Who were the ones calling out others for shoddy arguments? Throwing stones in glass houses and whatnot.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chron

[kevin32891]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1283884338' post='2445537']
If you can provide proof GOONS was doing all this just to spite you we all roll GOONS. If nopt then as people before me have said it isn't quite the same situation. Similar sure but it seems t[b]he NSO guys were actually out to help methrage in his roguing which means it was deliberate.[/b] I don't see GOONS' aiding as deliberate intent to help the guy hurt you or whoever it was.

Also, Omni doesn't get to tell our senator who or who not to sanction anymore. Our senator will sanction who the gov tells him to or we'll find another senator. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

The bold part is very inaccurate. The aid was not NSO sanctioned, and was of Corinan's doing alone.

And before you go "HURR Corinan is gov DURR!", no he isn't. He's an adviser, nothing more.

[thedon125]

[quote] Here's the problem, what's "on par" for us? Thats pretty ill-defined.[/quote]
It is, I'll give you that.

[quote]Well then, feel free to prove that each and every single on of those incidents is the fault of some newbie who simply didn't know any better.[/quote]
Being in FEAR, I am in no position to even try and attempt that (see the GOONS charter for why being in FEAR even matters).

[quote]Except you're right, the situations aren't equal:

Heft flipped the bird to Hoo because he thought he was being both ridiculous and not completely serious (his mistake), and Dopp thought he was being funny.[/quote]
Two members who are expected by their membership base to be responsible, both caught acting extremely irresponsible (even if one was through a legitimate misunderstanding). I'm sure GOONS does not hold their applicants to the same standards NSO holds its "members of elevated status".

[quote]On the other hand, GOONS members consistently hit protected nations, and the only token of remorse GOONS offers is a canceled $1 million in aid.[/quote]
As stated previously, $1mil was the negotiated amount, and CoJ had, at least previously, deemed that amount sufficient. I stated I personally felt it was a bit low, and that it should be re-sent if canceled

[quote]Your argument will hold weight if you can prove every single GOONS member raiding a protected nation/AA is a "stupid newbie" as it fits the definition, until then it's just spinning. If you can do it, I look forward to seeing such a spectacle, and will consider your argument as a legitimate one, even if it isn't valid.[/quote]
GOONS has a publicly-available policy on raiding, available for viewing here:
http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=4609.0
Now, being in FEAR, and therefore unable to get so much as a diplomat status to GOONS, I can only assume that their internal policies line up with their public statements. Now according to that document, every GOONS member that knows what their doing will not raid a protected alliance, thus, leaving only "stupid newbies" to be the ones causing the raids.

[nippy]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283884883' post='2445545']
The bold part is very inaccurate. The aid was not NSO sanctioned, and was of Corinan's doing alone.

[/quote]

The logs proved otherwise. Corinan saying he wanted to aid Methrage, followed by people egging him on to do it.

[TehChron]

[quote name='thedon125' timestamp='1283884986' post='2445546']

Two members who are expected by their membership base to be responsible, both caught acting extremely irresponsible (even if one was through a legitimate misunderstanding). I'm sure GOONS does not hold their applicants to the same standards NSO holds its "members of elevated status".[/quote] Clearly you're not aware of the standards we hold Doppelganger to.
[quote]

As stated previously, $1mil was the negotiated amount, and CoJ had, at least previously, deemed that amount sufficient. I stated I personally felt it was a bit low, and that it should be re-sent if canceled[/quote]
Which they have yet to do, unless that's changed since last night?

[quote]GOONS has a publicly-available policy on raiding, available for viewing here:
http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=4609.0
Now, being in FEAR, and therefore unable to get so much as a diplomat status to GOONS, I can only assume that their internal policies line up with their public statements. Now according to that document, every GOONS member that knows what their doing will not raid a protected alliance, thus, leaving only "stupid newbies" to be the ones causing the raids.
[/quote]
Or intentional provocateurs, which, given their self-proclaimed "edgy" status, isn't an unreasonable assumption to make.

Again, the onus is on you to prove that in order for it to be a real argument. Whether you do it, or GOONS themselves do so establish that each raiding member in question is a "stupid newbie" by definition, then either way that dismissal simply doesn't work.

I mean, "a dumb mistake" doesn't absolve your alliance of responsibility for the actions, right? Hence Doppelganger, hence Heft. If GOONS were to claim otherwise, it'd be pretty blatant hypocrisy. Again.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283885067' post='2445549']
The logs proved otherwise. Corinan saying he wanted to aid Methrage, followed by people egging him on to do it.
[/quote]
Umm where in those logs show someone in the DC egging him on? Because I sure as hell don't see any.

[nippy]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283885307' post='2445551']
Umm where in those logs show someone in the DC egging him on? Because I sure as hell don't see any.
[/quote]

I don't know...some guy named "Jerek" that has channel ops tells him to do it. The other was Fernando, so yeah...that's quite a massive hole in my argument.

[TehChron]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283885067' post='2445549']
The logs proved otherwise. Corinan saying he wanted to aid Methrage, followed by people egging him on to do it.
[/quote]
We egg each other on to do stupid things all the time, doesn't mean we're serious.

I'm sure you egg individual members to go rogue in your own private channels when they vent frustration at a particular Nation Leader as well. Once again, playing the boy scout card is ridiculous, so please don't try.

Unless you want to prove that you and yours never do, then by all means, play that card.

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283885387' post='2445553']
I don't know...some guy named "Jerek" that has channel ops tells him to do it. The other was Fernando, so yeah...that's quite a massive hole in my argument.
[/quote]
Jerek isn't even so much as [i]ex-shadow government[/i], so holding him up as an example of being a member of government just makes you look either ignorant or hilariously ridiculous.

Take your pick.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chron

[kevin32891]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283885387' post='2445553']
I don't know...some guy named "Jerek" that has channel ops tells him to do it. The other was Fernando, so yeah...that's quite a massive hole in my argument.
[/quote]

Jerek is an Acolyte... And if you believe Fernando had been gov, you must be joking.

Edited September 7, 2010 by kevin32891

[JT Jag]

Another note: Please remember that the result of the NSO/GOONS negotiation was NOT that the NSO has to pay 90Mil, but that Corinan, the sole person responsible for the issue, would single-handedly pay the reparations out of his own pocket. He accepted those terms because he is established enough and rich enough to pay.

Feel free to try and demand 90 million from the newbie that raided your protected AA, Schatt. But if you want to keep even standards than just like we did with NSO, leave our alliance out of it.

Edited September 7, 2010 by JT Jag

[TehChron]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283887189' post='2445575']
Another note: Please remember that the result of the NSO/GOONS negotiation was NOT that the NSO has to pay 90Mil, but that Corinan, the sole person responsible for the issue, would single-handedly pay the reparations out of his own pocket. He accepted those terms because he is established enough and rich enough to pay.[/quote]And yet that amount remains absurd. Results do not affect the nature of the negotiations themselves.

[quote]Feel free to try and demand 90 million from the newbie that raided your protected AA, Schatt. But if you want to keep even standards than just like we did with NSO, leave our alliance out of it.
[/quote]
Newb[i]ies[/i], I believe. And you already accepted that the raids were the responsibility of your alliance, hence the canceled $1 million in aid. At any rate, I don't think Schatt's saying he's the one lacking adherence to his own standards.

He seems to have been pretty consistent thus far.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chron

[JT Jag]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1283887636' post='2445580']
And you already accepted that the raids were the responsibility of your alliance, hence the canceled $1 million in aid. At any rate, I don't think Schatt's saying he's the one lacking adherence to his own standards.

He seems to have been pretty consistent thus far.
[/quote]No no, see, Schattenmann has [i]altered[/i] the deal, pray he does not alter it any further.

As a result, the burden is totally on the single nation in question (assuming we're keeping the same standards here). Feel free to try and get it from him.

Edited September 7, 2010 by JT Jag

[TehChron]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283887801' post='2445585']
No no, see, Schattenmann has [i]changed[/i] the deal, pray he does not change it any further.

As a result, the burden is totally on the single nation in question (assuming we're keeping the same standards here). Feel free to try and get it from him.
[/quote]
Really? He has?

I mean, you sure you guys didn't [i]change[/i] the deal first when [i]you canceled the aid to begin with[/i]? Seems to me like the deal was a bust on your end, and this is simply the opening move in renegotiation on Schatt's part.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Chron