Oh well, It is what it is...no real proof though

[pezstar]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283720622' post='2442957']
And we just might not pay it. We would probably just kick the offending member from our alliance.
[/quote]

Fair enough, really. STA almost certainly would have expelled someone in a similar situation.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1283720718' post='2442959']
That's a little low, don't you think? The going rate is 3:90.
[/quote]
Accidental tech raid is totally the same thing as aiding a nuclear rogue.

$3m = 30x reps in all circumstances. It's not like the money was used to pay for nukes or anything. Or done by someone who knew what he was doing, in secret, and then tried to flee from proof and consequences. Especially right after an announcement that doing so would be an act of war against GOONS.

Oh wait it was.

Oh well, I'm sure that's not an important factor.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Beefspari

[Biazt]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1283721137' post='2442970']
Apparently GOONs might cherish some of their members as well. We at NSO do. Every other alliance would as well. They'll pay for the mistake, reprimand the member in private and all is well. The difference here is the exaggerated amount you asked for. Corinan is worth 90mil, I guess.
[/quote]
The difference here is the exaggerated amount of stupid concentrated around one incident. Sure we'll cover for a simple raiding incident, but when you aid (in secret) a known nuclear rogue (who has a thread made about aiding him) and then laugh it up in the thread before proof comes up it's far beyond a simple tech raiding mistake.

There's no reason for us to keep such a dumb member around. Apparently having standards is not something NSO is familiar with.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Biazt

[Locke]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1283718386' post='2442920']
PS: EoG is ZI-till-we-want-to-let-you-go so its just short of PZI
[/quote]
What I find really funny is that it's basically the same as how NPO conducted their ZI lists, and while everyone and their grandmother hates the NPO for theirs, most reasonable people don't hate GOONS for their own list. I actually like the idea of all ZI lists being "we put you on until you give us a reason to get off." It just...makes sense, I dunno; the very name EoG fits. If you're an enemy, we crush you, once you stop being our enemy we'll cease crushing you. If it was up to me all alliances would forgo ZI lists and just use this paradigm.
*shrug*

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283721166' post='2442973']
Accidental tech raid is totally the same thing as aiding a nuclear rogue.

$3m = 30x reps in all circumstances. It's not like the money was used to pay for nukes or anything. Or done by someone who knew what he was doing, in secret, and then tried to flee from proof and consequences. Especially since he did it right after an announcement that doing so would be an act of war against GOONS.

Oh wait it was.

I'm sure that's not an important factor.
[/quote]

Methrage is at 1k infra. How much does it take to get to 1k infra again? 90mil?

No one's denied the act wasn't stupid. It wasn't particularly damaging. Certainly didn't cost anywhere close to 90mil. On an alliance-wide level, 90mil is insignificant. The damage done wasn't on an alliance-wide level. It was a single member, who should have to had paid reps proportional to the damage and perhaps a little punitive damage as well.

Edited September 5, 2010 by SpoiL

[Biazt]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1283721382' post='2442979']
Methrage is at 1k infra. How much does it take to get to 1k infra again? 90mil?

No one's denied the act wasn't stupid. It wasn't particularly damaging. Certainly didn't cost anywhere close to 90mil.
[/quote]
Maybe you should read the thread since we went over this already about 5 pages ago.

[KainIIIC]

I'm personally a little bit disappointed. I would have much rather seen an eternal war of Dopp v. GOONS, and see most of GOONS' lower tiers decimated by a nation with full wonders and a huge warchest. Plus he could openly aid Methrage in the future, so that maybe GOONS would pull a GGA and just decide to let them go due to its costs on the lower tier. Maybe if it had gone on long enough, you could get a GOONS rogue-war force. So thus, I am disappointed. Giving them 90m was way too kind.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1283721137' post='2442970']
Apparently GOONs might cherish some of their members as well. We at NSO do. Every other alliance would as well. They'll pay for the mistake, reprimand the member in private and all is well. The difference here is the exaggerated amount you asked for. Corinan is worth 90mil, I guess.
[/quote]
If you're cool to cherish people that run around aiding nuclear rogues knowing full well it could've started a war, you're free to. GOONS wouldn't allow that sort of nonsense in our alliance though. Fortunately Corinan decided to man up and pay for his own mistakes so NSO didn't have to.

You know, we actually did have a member go rogue on NSO once. We kicked him immediately and declared wars on him. We don't have much tolerance for people doing stupid things. Otherwise we might one day be held responsible for supporting the actions of our individual members doing stupid things.

[Biazt]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1283721812' post='2442991']
I'm personally a little bit disappointed. I would have much rather seen an eternal war of Dopp v. GOONS, and see most of GOONS' lower tiers decimated by a nation with full wonders and a huge warchest. Plus he could openly aid Methrage in the future, so that maybe GOONS would pull a GGA and just decide to let them go due to its costs on the lower tier. Maybe if it had gone on long enough, you could get a GOONS rogue-war force. So thus, I am disappointed. Giving them 90m was way too kind.
[/quote]
Better luck next time you guys aid a rogue

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283721839' post='2442993']
Better luck next time you guys aid a rogue
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that 'you guys' (as in NSO) does not equal Dopp, this was always his issue and doing. I just preferred he went all out on you.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283721839' post='2442993']
Better luck next time you guys aid a rogue
[/quote]
They could just aid Methrage again if they're eager to do this. The whole witch hunt thing though is time consuming. They should just do it openly next time and save everyone the effort.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1283721733' post='2442987']
Maybe you should read the thread since we went over this already about 5 pages ago.
[/quote]

I've followed the thread and have no idea what you're talking about.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283721819' post='2442992']
If you're cool to cherish people that run around aiding nuclear rogues knowing full well it could've started a war, you're free to. GOONS wouldn't allow that sort of nonsense in our alliance though. Fortunately Corinan decided to man up and pay for his own mistakes so NSO didn't have to.[/quote]

I'm sure that Dopp is aware of what he did and is willing to pay for it. He should pay for it, after all. That doesn't change the fact that what you asked for was excessive.

The only stupid part was getting caught.

[Batallion]

Can you all stop repeating yourselves? It's kind of ridiculous having to read the same thing over and over and over... Are you guys brainless or something?

[d3filed]

[quote name='the lizard queen' timestamp='1283715622' post='2442881']
Continue to make yourself look worse. Fine with me.
[/quote]

Well, he did surrender to \m/ and got zied without retaliating. I guess he isn't making himself look [i]much[/i] worse, but if he mentioned this it'd be pretty likely.

Edited September 5, 2010 by d3filed

[Marneus Calgar]

Ahh that sucks, I was expecting another war.

Peace is good, kinda.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283715208' post='2442872']
"...and I would have got away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

Your outrage is humorous in the same fashion, RV. You know I dig you, man, but when you throw little temper tantrums over not getting your way, it makes me lose a little more respect for you each time. I'm hoping you undertake a bit more development in the man-station soon, because these little fits of yours are hurting your rep.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Temper tantrum over not getting my way? This has nothing to me with in case you haven't noticed, and I'll happily admit that Dopp was in the wrong here. While I doubt he was trying to start a war, he was probably just acting without thinking. It could have had grave consequences. That said, I still view this as extortion, and an amount beyond reason. Perhaps we may simply have different standards, and different opinions on what is indeed morally acceptable. But be assured, I'd be just as annoyed if this were being done to someone outside the NSO. GOONS has repeatedly violated acceptable norms. You force nations, tech raid victims, to humiliate themselves for peace. While I'm against tech raiding, I consider the 'PM for peace' rule to be fair. Yet you reject that. I cannot accept that, or your practice of PZI (regardless of what name you call it). Believe me, my dislike for your alliance goes way beyond on this, and one day I swear you and others will pay for your wrongdoings.[/color]

[eejack]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283643467' post='2441852']
You know what, you all can find out yourselves. He canceled one foreign aid slot he had pending so he now has 3? available????

Get 3 Rulers on IRC, each send him 50tech. If the last nation can't send aid then you'll know why, secret aid slot.

There, prove me wrong or prove me right. Easy enough.
[/quote]

Seems like an elaborate ruse to obtain 150 tech with no payment.

Seriously I have proof. It is all right here in this thread. It is a conspiracy of the most evilest sort ever.

EEjack

[LordNettles]

Waiting fer the \m/ - NSO merge now

[Fernando12]

[quote name='EEjack' timestamp='1283725604' post='2443048']
Seems like an elaborate ruse to obtain 150 tech with no payment.

Seriously I have proof. It is all right here in this thread. It is a conspiracy of the most evilest sort ever.

EEjack
[/quote]
Get with the program. GOONS spied Corinan already and proved that he did aid Methrage. Corinan is paying $90m reps.

Don't like reading or what?

[Boywunda]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1283724538' post='2443033']
[color="#0000FF"] Believe me, my dislike for your alliance goes way beyond on this, and one day I swear you and others will pay for your wrongdoings.[/color]
[/quote]
Just wanted this reiterated. I can't wait for this day.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Boywunda' timestamp='1283725987' post='2443053']
Just wanted this reiterated. I can't wait for this day.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Neither can I. I'm sure your alliance will be shedding its tough guy image and crying a real river.[/color]

[Bob Janova]

[quote]What I find really funny is that it's basically the same as how NPO conducted their ZI lists, and while everyone and their grandmother hates the NPO for theirs, most reasonable people don't hate GOONS for their own list.[/quote]
That's because the NPO's list, and those of many of its allies at that time, were what we now term 'EZI' (up until they all abandoned the practice just before Karma in an attempt to beat back the fires of outrage that were building against them). The EoG list, and the PZI lists of every other alliance, isn't objectionable because any reasonable person recognises that sometimes you get nations who do not deserve peace until they agree to change their ways – most rogues end up on 'PZI lists' of one kind or another because the reps they would have to pay to cover their damages far exceeds what it's possible for them to pay.

[quote]It was a single member, who should have to had paid reps proportional to the damage and perhaps a little punitive damage as well. [/quote]
Hey, thanks for recognising the justification of the amount asked! Yes, a large proportion of this amount is punitive, because of the repeated pattern of NSO doing this ... so it isn't just for sending $3m to a rogue (for which, yes, $90m would be excessive).

Most of Methrage's war partners are around 1500 infra, so each extra nuke the $3m buys is around $3m in infra, probably about the same in land and roughly $2m in military costs (aircraft and tanks mostly). That cash can buy you up to 1000 infra (keeping you nuke-capable) from around 500, so that's at least one extra day of nukes (2 nukes with WRC), probably two considering the wonder imbalance. So say 4 nukes, $8m damage per nuke, that's $32m direct damage caused by the aid, and that makes the $90m only 3× reps, which is pretty standard. So heck, if they were going for punitive reps maybe it was too low! (Though the 3× multiplier is designed to be punitive in the first place.)

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283726169' post='2443055']
That's because the NPO's list, and those of many of its allies at that time, were what we now term 'EZI' (up until they all abandoned the practice just before Karma in an attempt to beat back the fires of outrage that were building against them). The EoG list, and the PZI lists of every other alliance, isn't objectionable because any reasonable person recognises that sometimes you get nations who do not deserve peace until they agree to change their ways – most rogues end up on 'PZI lists' of one kind or another because the reps they would have to pay to cover their damages far exceeds what it's possible for them to pay.


Hey, thanks for recognising the justification of the amount asked! Yes, a large proportion of this amount is punitive, because of the repeated pattern of NSO doing this ... so it isn't just for sending $3m to a rogue (for which, yes, $90m would be excessive).

Most of Methrage's war partners are around 1500 infra, so each extra nuke the $3m buys is around $3m in infra, probably about the same in land and roughly $2m in military costs (aircraft and tanks mostly). That cash can buy you up to 1000 infra (keeping you nuke-capable) from around 500, so that's at least one extra day of nukes (2 nukes with WRC), probably two considering the wonder imbalance. So say 4 nukes, $8m damage per nuke, that's $32m direct damage caused by the aid, and that makes the $90m only 3× reps, which is pretty standard. So heck, if they were going for punitive reps maybe it was too low! (Though the 3× multiplier is designed to be punitive in the first place.)
[/quote]

Ah, welcome back Hegemonic days. Whats that? You never left us?

Since we are charging reps for the simple fact that we don't like the alliance(despite it being the action of a single member), then you will be paying 2.7billion when the tables are turned. (90mil x 30)

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1283726915' post='2443066']
Ah, welcome back Hegemonic days. Whats that? You never left us?

Since we are charging reps for the simple fact that we don't like the alliance(despite it being the action of a single member), then you will be paying 2.7billion when the tables are turned. (90mil x 30)
[/quote]

The tables will never be turned. Your empty bluster is worse than RV's. (His is only better because I like blue.)

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1283727227' post='2443073']
The tables will never be turned. Your empty bluster is worse than RV's. (His is only better because I like blue.)
[/quote]

Dare to dream-Even though you ignored the point.