Oh well, It is what it is...no real proof though

[Choson]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1283672348' post='2442423']
[color="#0000FF"]Furthermore, Dopp is not gov. He may be a well known member, but he certainly is just that. A member.[/color]
[/quote]
So are you saying that the Prophets of the Dark Side aren't gov?

Per your alliance's own governmental stratification:

[quote]At the top of the Sith Empire is the Sith Emperor himself. He single-handedly rules the New Sith Order with an iron fist. Of course, it is impossible for the Emperor to rule the entirety of Sith Space by himself. Out of this need for divided governance, the Darth Council is born.

The Darth Council is led by the Dark Lord of the Sith. Originally, before the rise of the Sith as an Empire, it was the Dark Lord of the Sith who reigned over the New Sith Order. It was former Dark Lord Ivan Moldavi, through sheer will, rose to the throne of the Sith Emperor and established the Sith Order as an imperial regime. And so the Dark Lord of the Sith became the Sith Emperor's second in command. This does not mean that the Dark Lord can make decisions on behalf of the Emperor. Should that he even contradict the Emperor himself, it is the Emperor's words that are final. However, the Dark Lord can act as the temporary de facto leader of the Sith when the Sith Emperor is incapacitated to do so.

The rest of [b]the Darth Council is consisted of the Sith Lords and the Prophets of the Dark Side[/b]. Both Sith Lords and [b]Prophets play advisory roles to decision making by the Sith Emperor.[/b] At the same time, they also work oversight in the Sith Councils. Certain Sith Lords may lead certain Councils in a general direction, as well as provide administrative support. While the Sith Emperor leads, the Sith Lords point the way.

The [b]Prophets of the Dark[/b] are retired members of the Darth Council, or former Emperors. In the case of former Sith Emperors, they are also regarded as Imperator Emeritus. Prophets play a purely advisory role in the Sith Order. They have no decision making capabilities, although they tend to give administrative support when requested upon.[/quote]

Sure seems like he should have known better since he is to play an advisory role in your government.

[Weebland]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283673576' post='2442443']
No one is crying LOL. I LOL'd the entire time when Weebland was trying to sound all serious and tell me the consequences for my actions.

I was given the choice. Do as they asked, LOL no or be expelled or resign. I resigned.[/quote]

Yes. The sad part is that you broke two of our rules and were laughing about it before we tried to punish you. This goes to show how worthless you were as a member.

Fernando, you are quite simply, and this is putting it mildly, not very bright. Let me explain fully:

This is not about you anymore. This is about Doppelganger and his stupid mistake to aid Methrage. No one cares that we effectively booted you because you broke two rules, then openly laughed about it. Yet when we actually wanted to punish you, you cried about it. You ragequit, and then ran to the OWF to get back at the big bad NSO. You coming on here and posting those logs is like that whining seven-year-old who runs to his mother after his older brother took a swing at him. Then, when this thing turns out to be legitimate, you sit here and pretend that you're some type of global hero. Don't kid yourself. You're not. All you are, and will probably remain being, is an annoyance. Denying this, or refusing to acknowledge it, makes you an idiot.

To everyone, I apologize in advance if this elicits another post from Fernando. My intention in this is to maybe get him to shut up for good, but I doubt that will happen.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Weebland

[Woodrow]

1. EoG isn't PZI, so just stop.
2. Personally, if I was GOONS leadership, I'd just give the demand one more time, if ya'll don't take it, fine.
3. *War*
4. ???
5. NSO asks allies to stay out.
6. Profit.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1283695444' post='2442559']
So are you saying that the Prophets of the Dark Side aren't gov?

Per your alliance's own governmental stratification:



Sure seems like he should have known better since he is to play an advisory role in your government.
[/quote]

[quote]
The [b]Prophets of the Dark[/b] are retired members of the Darth Council, or former Emperors. In the case of former Sith Emperors, they are also regarded as Imperator Emeritus. Prophets play a [u]purely advisory role[/u] in the Sith Order. [b][u]They have no decision making capabilities,[/u][/b] although they tend to give administrative support when requested upon.[/quote]

You forgot to highlight some stuff

[Bob Janova]

Didn't we [i]just have[/i] a war over NSO aiding a rogue having been told it was an act of war to do so? We gave you a relatively quick and easy peace because the war was intended to teach you a lesson, not destroy you – apparently a lesson that a mere two weeks of war doesn't get through your skulls. What on earth possesses you to do it [i]again[/i], and defend the member who does it (making it an alliance issue again)?

GOONS said that they would only hold Corinan responsible [i]if NSO didn't condone the action[/i]. By refusing to release him to GOONS you're doing exactly that. GOONS have a perfect right to roll you over this, they would have my full support in doing so and I rather hope negotiations fail. There is little that could be such a deliberate provocation as doing the thing that was the CB for a war you got out of only a couple of weeks ago again – and particularly after GOONS had posted an explicit warning about aiding Methrage being an act of war.

Yes, Fernando is clearly a scumbag to have exposed this operation. But that doesn't change the fact that aiding Methrage is a clear act of war against GOONS.

[quote]That being said, I expect NSO will get away with it....again. Despite repeated examples, folks have yet to figure out that the NSO does all of this on purpose. (And then they laugh about it and get their allies to pick up the tab.)[/quote]
Of course they do. 'Hey look at us, we're NSO, we're special, the rules don't apply to us!' $90m isn't really 'getting away with it' though; it [i]is[/i] a punitive reps demand, as it should be when non-material consequences obviously don't have any effect on NSO's behaviour. As for the allies, my question there is why anyone chooses to remain allied to such a clear liability. It is only a matter of time (and not much time judging by their behaviour during and since the peace thread) before NSO get themselves rolled again and you guys are either going to get dragged in and rolled as well, or be forced to look weak by not doing so.

[Choson]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1283696853' post='2442573']
You forgot to highlight some stuff
[/quote]
Government is still government, advisory position or not.

[The MVP]

[quote]Of course they do. 'Hey look at us, we're NSO, we're special, the rules don't apply to us!' $90m isn't really 'getting away with it' though; it is a punitive reps demand, as it should be when non-material consequences obviously don't have any effect on NSO's behaviour. [/quote]

90 mil is still woefully excessive and truly extortion. If GOONS didn't have the same power to wield around and say, someone like TPF asked this of VE, TPF would be forced to get whatever they can get. I can think of a case in a certain war when RnR didn't take responsibility for a rogue attack on NSO and refused to even compensate NSO.

But it's okay, Bob Janova, you can talk of the atrocities of an impending war while weaseling out and fighting on the winning side like you usually do. You're like MHA manifested into a nation.

Edited September 5, 2010 by The MVP

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1283700086' post='2442609']
90 mil is still woefully excessive and truly extortion. [/quote]

Generally speaking, when one commits the same crime repeatedly, the penalties get more harsh. On two occasions [i]within the last thirty days[/i], a high-ranking member of the NSO has allowed a rogue to receive foreign aid.

$90,000,000 [u]is[/u] letting them off lightly.

Or, to use another example....

When a dog bites one person, you can usually get away with promising to have it muzzled. When it does the same thing again, it's time to have it put down.

[The MVP]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1283700492' post='2442613']
Generally speaking, when one commits the same crime repeatedly, the penalties get more harsh. On two occasions [i]within the last thirty days[/i], a high-ranking member of the NSO has allowed a rogue to receive foreign aid.

$90,000,000 [u]is[/u] letting them off lightly.

Or, to use another example....

When a dog bites one person, you can usually get away with promising to have it muzzled. When it does the same thing again, it's time to have it put down.
[/quote]

No, it's not. 90 million for the crimes of 3 mil is still 30-fold. Was it a mistake? Yes. Was Dopp dumb to do what he did? Hell yes, especially considering what the last war was fought over. There are no excuses and GOONS [i]would [/i] be justified to pursue war, but 90 million? That's just too much. It's called taking full advantage of an alliance in a bad condition. Now grant it, and I will say again, Dopp was dumb to do what he did but 90 mil is just blowing things out of proportion. If war wanted to truly be averted 15 million could very well be an amicable solution and will teach NSO a lesson while building up some smaller GOONS nations, but 90 mil? That's just flat out extortion.

My suggestion: Let Dopp aid all 6 GOONS nations Methrage is at war with which would result in 18 mil given to GOONS nations and 3 mil to each GOON nation directly involved in the conflict. That would make sense.

Edited September 5, 2010 by The MVP

[Bob Janova]

[quote]90 mil is still woefully excessive and truly extortion. If GOONS didn't have the same power to wield around and say, someone like TPF asked this of VE, TPF would be forced to get whatever they can get. I can think of a case in a certain war when RnR didn't take responsibility for a rogue attack on NSO and refused to even compensate NSO.[/quote]
The second and third sentences don't have any relation to the first. Aiding a rogue and then refusing to pay [i]any[/i] damages just because you can is clearly a different situation (though you talk about 'taking responsibility for a rogue' which is an oxymoron – if they've gone rogue then by definition you disclaim responsibility for their actions).

The difference between extortion and punitive reps is mostly in terms of who you like better. The very idea of punitive damages is to demand more than the actual damage done in order to teach the perpetrator a lesson and to deter others from doing the same action. The difference though is that you can justify punitive reps by looking at the pattern of behaviour you're looking to deter (in this case NSO aiding rogues at war) whereas extortion usually ends up with the 'do something about it' argument. In this case GOONS aren't actually particularly well placed in the web to start a war, since both they and NSO hold MDPs and not MADPs, so they're not really in a position to extort.

And I've not weaselled out of any wars. I've only ever moved alliances once and that was for personal reasons (besides, Grämlins won their next two wars). So your personal attack is complete nonsense.

Edit: Wait, they'd be justified in pursuing war but not in demanding $90m (which is far, far less than a war would cost NSO)? Do you even think about what you're saying?

Edited September 5, 2010 by Bob Janova

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1283700492' post='2442613']
Generally speaking, when one commits the same crime repeatedly, the penalties get more harsh. On two occasions [i]within the last thirty days[/i], a high-ranking member of the NSO has allowed a rogue to receive foreign aid.

$90,000,000 [u]is[/u] letting them off lightly.

Or, to use another example....

When a dog bites one person, you can usually get away with promising to have it muzzled. When it does the same thing again, it's time to have it put down.
[/quote]

Jeez Ashoka you really have it in for us, why don't you stop whining and attack us already? I mean you're just lazy for asking others to do it. But I know where your balls are.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283700876' post='2442618']
Jeez Ashoka you really have it in for us, why don't you stop whining and attack us already? I mean you're just lazy for asking others to do it. But I know where your balls are.
[/quote]

Aid a rogue attacking a Nordreich nation.

Win a free war.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1283700930' post='2442620']
Aid a rogue attacking a Nordreich nation.

Win a free war.
[/quote]
Come on don't give me that, you could have bandwagon your way into our last stomp. Ashoka if you don't want to hurt your nation I suggest you join GPA.

Edited September 5, 2010 by kevin32891

[The MVP]

GOONS is well connected, and has the backing of most alliances that are heavily en-steeped in the MDoAP web. I'm saying they're justified in pursuing a war, sure, but 90 mil for 3 mil in aid is excessive and extorting if not an outright joke in my own opinion.

And yes, you Mr. I hated EZI with every fiber of my being yet was allied to every big practicer of it too afraid to make a stand. Seriously, you realize you're all talk and we all know it. Hell I respect people like Penkala more then you, at least he actually backs up his mouth.

Anyways this thread isn't about you, although I think you should just join GPA and be a side commentator once and for all, 90 mil is extortion. It's due to the hate of NSO and their stupid actions it's being argued 90 mil isn't extortion and even said to be [i]light[/i] in comparison. But oh well, I'll let you all do your things. I still think the idea of Dopp aiding the 6 nations at war with Methrage 3 mil each is more then enough.

Edited September 5, 2010 by The MVP

[SirWilliam]

It's almost like NSO wants to get rolled, ad infinitum.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283700745' post='2442615']
In this case GOONS aren't actually particularly well placed in the web to start a war, since both they and NSO hold MDPs and not MADPs, so they're not really in a position to extort.
[/quote]

Sadly, I can only half agree with this, since the former part of the sentence is wrong, but I agree with the latter, since I don't find it extortion, especially after reading Beefspari's numbers.

MDoAPs

* Umbrella
* MK
* =LOST=
* Poison Clan
* GOD
* OSA
* iFOK
* AO

EDIT: Well, we hold MDoAPS, not MDPs or MDAPs, so I made the wrong point. Kind of.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Haquertal

[Thrash]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283701069' post='2442621']
Ashoka if you don't want to hurt your pixels I suggest you join GPA.
[/quote]

The last thing you can accuse him of being is an infra-hugger. You could though accuse him of often trying to instigate wars or make wars bigger and whining when it doesn't happen.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1283701162' post='2442623']
It's almost like NSO wants to get rolled, ad infinitum.
[/quote]

Its not even that. Sure what Corinan did was stupid, but we do not want to leave one of our most loyal members out to dry. Would you do that to a friend SirWilliam?

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1283701247' post='2442626']
The last thing you can accuse him of being is an infra-hugger. You could though accuse him of often trying to instigate wars or make wars bigger and whining when it doesn't happen.
[/quote]

Perhaps you're right. I have never really read what Ashoka has said in the past or what he has done besides Vox, but lately he has been asking and whining that no one is rolling us. If he was that uppity about it, he would have done something.

Edited September 5, 2010 by kevin32891

[DevastationStation]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1283672997' post='2442437']
I raided some nations lol. I'm told I have to go to the academy and be an initiate for a month. I said no.

I told them it wouldn't end well if they just didn't let my 2 raids go. They didn't listen.

I told them my raids were no big deal, they said rules are rules and I had to be punished.

The same arguments NSO are making here is what I was saying earlier about my raids on nations.

NSO, when I say let it go I mean let it go
[/quote]


Classy.

[KingEd]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1283656078' post='2442110']
I see no valid reason for you to drop off 38k NS just to hit a rogue.

I mean, if you did it for that exact reason, that's foolhardy at best, and I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Fernando12.
[/quote]

That's what I thought as well, and now it's a proven fact.

[quote name='Davian Thule' timestamp='1283670394' post='2442391']
Wait so NSO will give up one of their own but will defend a rogue with their entire alliance.
[/quote]

...go figure...

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1283671707' post='2442413']
I look forward to the $3million war.
[/quote]

Hey, it's down by $3mill, eventually they will learn to not Aid enemies of other states.

[quote name='Davian Thule' timestamp='1283690395' post='2442525']
Do you think they'd help after two blunders?
[/quote]

I'll await the "We ask our allies to not intervene [i]again[/i] thread.

[kevin32891]

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1283701568' post='2442632']
Words
[/quote]
I suggest you read the through the thread buddy.

[Haquertal]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283701694' post='2442634']
I suggest you read the through the thread buddy.
[/quote]

Erm, those quote are [b]from[/b] the thread.

[KingEd]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1283701694' post='2442634']
I suggest you read the through the thread buddy.
[/quote]

I did read the entire thread, and find it appalling that things like this are still happening within the NSO. I'm not trying to be rude; however, in this instance I would either pay the reps asked by GOONS regardless of how excessive you think they are or just face the consequences again on the battlefield.

[Andy P]

[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1283700736' post='2442614']
No, it's not. 90 million for the crimes of 3 mil is still 30-fold. [...]
[/quote]
-.-

Reps are to cover DAMAGE taken, not CAUSES to it. Those $3m destroyed (assuming the $90m are exactly 3x the damage) about $30m. Taking into consideration that that idiot said he'd pay 10x the damage, $90m is like erasing debts of over $200m.

@NSO: Please be reasonable, I mean what is the point of going from one war to the next? I'd be long letting that idiot be paying reps by now if it were up to me... PS: Why would anyone waste the money to buy the FAC anyways?

[kevin32891]

[quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1283701792' post='2442636']
Erm, those quote are [b]from[/b] the thread.
[/quote]
He thinks that we're going to throw Corinan under the bus; which we aren't. And the other things have already been said and repeated. If he wants to sound like a broken record I apologize.